UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #4

[Tortoise]

12.16. So not long after the initial desaturation where the cpap machine was dislodged. I’m not 100% sure though why she was in that room anyway? Presumably nurses assigned to babies in room one are fully qualified and capable of caring for their individual assigned baby? I understand nurses coming to a crash call if they’re able and needed but generally… why is she there?

Also considering her texts before that night shift (from the reports this morning) -

"Letby says: "Don't mind being in [nursery room] 1 but don't want to have [Child B]."

"She added, in another message: "...I can't look after [Child B] because I just don't know how to feel seeing parents..."

 

[Legally Bland]

4:32pm

Our coverage of the Letby trial has concluded for today.
We will be back tomorrow for the resumption of the trial as the prosecution continues to give evidence.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, October 18

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 more while working as a Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Music2022]

A bit more info about the text messages here

Lucy Letby: Nurse told colleagues of baby death heartbreak, court told

Lucy Letby's trial is told she messaged colleagues about how hard it was to deal with bereaved parents.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[notsure]

So difficult to know what to think. I mean, looking the parents up on Facebook could be a sign of caring about how they're getting on. Texts could be interpreted as her being really upset. Who can tell?

 

[29 Acacia Road]

So difficult to know what to think. I mean, looking the parents up on Facebook could be a sign of caring about how they're getting on. Texts could be interpreted as her being really upset. Who can tell?

It is very hard to look at these in isolation and determine whether they mean anything sinister/incriminating or not.

I would need to know things like; does LL use Facebook and other social media often? Does she search other people on social media, like colleagues or people she meets on a night out, or friends of friends? Her searches may well be unprofessional and go against standards and rules, but some people are just very nosey and like to snoop. What one person may think is odd/stalkerish behaviour, another person may see it is very nosey.

Without knowing LL's personality, how she normally enages in text and social media use, it is hard to form any informed type of opinion whether any of this shows concern, nosiness or incriminating/sinister behaviour.

 

[JosieJo]

The baby in the programme was born with her stomach and bowel in her chest, creating the danger that air in the bowel could suffocate her/squash her lungs.

The prosecution experts have concluded that babies A and B had air injected into their bloodstreams. According to the mother, the consultant wanted to photograph baby A's skin discolouration because she had never seen it before.

I think it's a mistake to compare the two. If it was a common naturally occurring event I think it would have factored into the prosecution experts conclusions. IMO

Is she not alleged to have injected air into baby Cs stomach? A few days after watching the TV programme?

 

[JosieJo]

A bit more info about the text messages here

Lucy Letby: Nurse told colleagues of baby death heartbreak, court told

Lucy Letby's trial is told she messaged colleagues about how hard it was to deal with bereaved parents.

www.bbc.co.uk

"I said to [another nurse] that I can't look after [Child B] because I just don't know how I'm going to feel seeing parents.
"Dad was on the floor crying saying 'please don't take our baby away' when we took him to the mortuary. It's just heartbreaking.
"It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Hopefully have a more positive one tonight."

Considering she was dreading it so much she spent an awful lot of time in room 1
Would be interesting to know if it was a "no choice" situation or not

 

[Tortoise]

Is she not alleged to have injected air into baby Cs stomach? A few days after watching the TV programme?

Yes there are different methods they allege she used.

ETA - which were not deemed by the prosecution experts to be naturally occurring medical episodes.

 

[JosieJo]

Yes there are different methods they allege she used.

It's just a thought that after 2 attempts using air into bloodstream someone might get an "idea" to try a different method

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder why she added that the babies died 'under different circumstances?'

She seemed to be the only one to think so or who didn't find anything unusual about babies who were doing well to suddenly collapse or die. Imo

Attempting to control the narrative / insert a narrative? To possibly deflect from reality of situation which *may* have been that all three deaths were remarkably similar?

In general terms, controlling the narrative, inserting a false narrative, and deflecting away from themselves, is what controlling, manipulative, and coercive people do.

Even so, in this instance that would not necessarily be a sign of having perpetrated murder / attempted murder IMO. It could be, for example, a sign of feeling guilty of failing in any way and not wanting to have that discussion openly or be held responsible.

JMO MOO

 

[merrypason]

I was thinking that I'd be pretty pissed off if i was the designated nurse for baby B,

• Firstly, LL asks me to take on baby B as she doesn't want to because she's too upset seeing parents. I offer to become the designated nurse to help her.
• Then she arrives on shift and starts looking after baby B even though I'm supposed to
• Baby B then has a massive crash
• She then carries on looking after him hourly
• She then takes home the handover sheet for baby B (I don't know this at the time)

So if baby B had died, I'd be under review, even though I didn't actually look after him. LL did, even though she's the one who asked me to swap her for another room. And then my handover sheet goes missing and I get into trouble at the review for not knowing where it was. All the while it was with LL.

And I would have to deal with the upset parents as I was the designated nurse.

 

[May72031]

I think it is interesting that colleagues began to notice some odd patterns emerging or that's what it reads like to me anyway.

Back in June 2015, as well. A good year before LL was taken off duties.

 

[Stumpyaura]

Aired on 9th June sure. This video clip trailer of the show was posted on BBC website on 2 June.

BBC Two - An Hour To Save Your Life, Series 2, Surviving Birth, Neonatal surgery

Laura gives birth to a baby girl who has been diagnosed with CDH during the pregnancy.

www.bbc.co.uk

Any guesses what the trailer was about? Air in bowel.

For child B on 9th June.

After efforts to resuscitate Child B, Child B "recovered very quickly".

A doctor subsequently found "loops of gas filled bowel"

That really brings it home to me how fragile these tiny babies are and how vulnerable they and the parents are in the system. It is so harrowing to imagine her putting so many parents through this if she is guilty

 

[Emma2007]

I was thinking that I'd be pretty pissed off if i was the designated nurse for baby B,

• Firstly, LL asks me to take on baby B as she doesn't want to because she's too upset seeing parents. I offer to become the designated nurse to help her.
• Then she arrives on shift and starts looking after baby B even though I'm supposed to
• Baby B then has a massive crash
• She then carries on looking after him hourly
• She then takes home the handover sheet for baby B (I don't know this at the time)

So if baby B had died, I'd be under review, even though I didn't actually look after him. LL did, even though she's the one who asked me to swap her for another room. And then my handover sheet goes missing and I get into trouble at the review for not knowing where it was. All the while it was with LL.

And I would have to deal with the upset parents as I was the designated nurse.

In my experience a handover sheet is a printed piece of paper containing a list of every patient on the ward with a small amount of information. (in my hospital don’t use names, just room/bed numbers and initials for confidentiality)
it

I was thinking that I'd be pretty pissed off if i was the designated nurse for baby B,

• Firstly, LL asks me to take on baby B as she doesn't want to because she's too upset seeing parents. I offer to become the designated nurse to help her.
• Then she arrives on shift and starts looking after baby B even though I'm supposed to
• Baby B then has a massive crash
• She then carries on looking after him hourly
• She then takes home the handover sheet for baby B (I don't know this at the time)

So if baby B had died, I'd be under review, even though I didn't actually look after him. LL did, even though she's the one who asked me to swap her for another room. And then my handover sheet goes missing and I get into trouble at the review for not knowing where it was. All the while it was with LL.

And I would have to deal with the upset parents as I was the designated nurse.

In my experience a handover sheet is simply a list of all patients on the ward with a small amount of important info. It is updated at the end of each shift and printed multiple times for handover to the next shift.
Every nurse receives the same sheet and it wouldn’t be identifiable to a single nurse until you have made your own notes on it. Also in my hospital we don’t actually put patient names on, just bed/room number and initial for confidentiality.
You could also have an individual handover sheet containing more detailed info for your assigned patient, which tends to be handwritten by yourself when you receive the info verbally from the previous nurse at the start of your shift. This is in addition to the printed handover above.

I would also add that it is not unusual to provide care for another nurses patient, to help each other out, particularly on nights when it’s short staffed. For example if you have two tasks for two different patients due at the same time, another nurse that has a spare minute might do one for you and vice versa. It’s all part of teamwork
In addition I would say that running blood gases for another patient is quite common in our unit, again to help each other out, and more often - not everyone has access to the machine (either due to not being trained, or not having a working barcode to access the machine)
I’ve worked shifts where only one nurse has a barcode to access the blood gas machine and therefore has to run bloods for the entire ward! Not ideal but fairly standard in nhs, particularly when understaffing means people cannot be released to complete the training to use the machine!

 

[Marantz4250b]

So difficult to know what to think. I mean, looking the parents up on Facebook could be a sign of caring about how they're getting on. Texts could be interpreted as her being really upset. Who can tell?

These are my thoughts. You're right in that there are entirely reasonable explanations for those actions. They could also be deeply weird and be the actions of a sick minded nutter. To me though, although slightly out of the ordinary, they just don't seem quite weird enough to explain the latter, if that makes sense?

It's very easy to be critical when judging these things from a distance. There always seems to be some preconceived ideas as to how people are supposed to behave in certain situations which is often not the way people actually genuinely behave in such circumstances. Most people aren't capable of predicting how they themselves would behave in extreme situations, let alone how others would.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It is very hard to look at these in isolation and determine whether they mean anything sinister/incriminating or not.

I would need to know things like; does LL use Facebook and other social media often? Does she search other people on social media, like colleagues or people she meets on a night out, or friends of friends? Her searches may well be unprofessional and go against standards and rules, but some people are just very nosey and like to snoop. What one person may think is odd/stalkerish behaviour, another person may see it is very nosey.

Without knowing LL's personality, how she normally enages in text and social media use, it is hard to form any informed type of opinion whether any of this shows concern, nosiness or incriminating/sinister behaviour.

All of the pics of her seem to have been stripped from her FB (or at least from the FB of her friends) so she's probably as much of a FB user as most early/mid 20's people were at the time. I'm not sure that "nosey" would even be the right way to describe it; for lots of people of that age, checking people out on FB is probably a run of the mill thing and isn't seen as weird at all.

It is rather strange that she said that she can't remember doing it. As has been said, though, there may be good reasons as to why she lied about that, if indeed she did.

 

[squish]

I think the next week or two of the trial will be a long slog, establishing the background and circumstances of the incidents for all the babies, with not much new evidence either for or against LL.

I think we will really be able to start forming proper opinions when the witnesses take the stand. I think the case will hinge on the witnesses because without them, a lot is circumstantial or medical opinions rather than medical facts.

It will be really interesting if LL takes the stand but I doubt her lawyer would advise it.

 

[cuecard]

I think the next week or two of the trial will be a long slog, establishing the background and circumstances of the incidents for all the babies, with not much new evidence either for or against LL.

I think we will really be able to start forming proper opinions when the witnesses take the stand. I think the case will hinge on the witnesses because without them, a lot is circumstantial or medical opinions rather than medical facts.

It will be really interesting if LL takes the stand but I doubt her lawyer would advise it.

I think there is very little to no chance LL takes the stand. The cross examination would annihilate her. They know exactly what traps to set for people to walk into. Her lawyers would have her well advised against imo.

The other witnesses, I agree, could very much be key to this.

 

[Charlot123]

4:32pm

Our coverage of the Letby trial has concluded for today.
We will be back tomorrow for the resumption of the trial as the prosecution continues to give evidence.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, October 18

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 more while working as a Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I noticed that babies A and B had been baptized.

Given that I have faint ideas about the traditions of different churches practicing in England, I have several questions.

First, how is baptism of neonates performed? Do they immerse babies into water, or just sprinkle water on them?

Second, aren't you supposed to be somewhat healthy; what are the rules about preemies and baptism?

(One extra person in the NICU + immersion in water? Is the water brought with the priest, or the local one used?).

In short, does the fact that the babies were baptized testify to the fact that they were considered stable enough by the ICU staff and doctors?

Or is there a "light" form of baptism used in cases when a neonate is very fragile?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Charlot123]

All of the pics of her seem to have been stripped from her FB (or at least from the FB of her friends) so she's probably as much of a FB user as most early/mid 20's people were at the time. I'm not sure that "nosey" would even be the right way to describe it; for lots of people of that age, checking people out on FB is probably a run of the mill thing and isn't seen as weird at all.

It is rather strange that she said that she can't remember doing it. As has been said, though, there may be good reasons as to why she lied about that, if indeed she did.

You know, FB "offers" me potential friends. Usually people I have seen through the days, and whose phones were in the proximity of mine.

90% of time there is nothing interesting, but if a photo is too good, or peculiar, I might check on them.

Now, if Lucy had her cell phone with her (and we know she did, from another case), and the parents brought theirs into the unit, might it have happened so that the parents' portraits popped up in bottom of her FB in the evening?

Looking up their FB in this case would nor be so surprising.

In short, FB's own algorithm can't be discounted.