UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #4

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  • #381
4:02pm

Further medication is administered to Child B during the night, with Letby again listed as a co-signer.

4:06pm

At 2.40am, the 'purple discolouration' had been 'almost resolved'. The cause was '??', and Child B had been 'stabilised at present'.



I hope that the unit took pictures of purple discoloration. Usually any rash should be documented. They mention similar rashes on the babies.
 
  • #382
I noticed that babies A and B had been baptized.

Given that I have faint ideas about the traditions of different churches practicing in England, I have several questions.

First, how is baptism of neonates performed? Do they immerse babies into water, or just sprinkle water on them?

Second, aren't you supposed to be somewhat healthy; what are the rules about preemies and baptism?

(One extra person in the NICU + immersion in water? Is the water brought with the priest, or the local one used?).

In short, does the fact that the babies were baptized testify to the fact that they were considered stable enough by the ICU staff and doctors?

Or is there a "light" form of baptism used in cases when a neonate is very fragile?

Thanks in advance.

This is from the US but it's the best I can find:

 
  • #383
  • #384
You know, FB "offers" me potential friends. Usually people I have seen through the days, and whose phones were in the proximity of mine.

(Snipped by me)

In short, FB's own algorithm can't be discounted.
This is a great point I hadn’t thought of with regards to the searches. I’ve also found if you look up someone once or twice they also stick around the people you may know section.

I gave it a try there and checked my search history (not the downloadable one, just the “recent searches” part when clicking the search bar), when a profile is viewed through the people you may know section it doesn’t show as having been accessed through a search. Managed to find the activity log section under the settings and it doesn’t appear in the search history there either, keeping in mind I’ve not downloaded the information yet and am going based on Facebooks UI. At the moment I don’t see a way a profile is logged having been viewed without having been searched but I may be wrong especially on the backend of things.
 
  • #385
She was complaining to friends wasn't she, in later messages, that work was boring (just doing feeds) and unfulfiling. So maybe.
Maybe not so much boring and unfulfilling as that she felt that her talents were being wasted.
 
  • #386
This is a great point I hadn’t thought of with regards to the searches. I’ve also found if you look up someone once or twice they also stick around the people you may know section.

I gave it a try there and checked my search history (not the downloadable one, just the “recent searches” part when clicking the search bar), when a profile is viewed through the people you may know section it doesn’t show as having been accessed through a search. Managed to find the activity log section under the settings and it doesn’t appear in the search history there either, keeping in mind I’ve not downloaded the information yet and am going based on Facebooks UI. At the moment I don’t see a way a profile is logged having been viewed without having been searched but I may be wrong especially on the backend of things.
But it depends on what LE were looking for. LL's "searches" (like, click on loupe sign, and enter the name), or merely her "visits" to the baby parents' pages. The pages can be accessed via the search, or via "people you might know" section. If you are just checking "visits" to someone's page, you may not necessarily see how the page was found, or accessed.
 
  • #387
You know, FB "offers" me potential friends. Usually people I have seen through the days, and whose phones were in the proximity of mine.

90% of time there is nothing interesting, but if a photo is too good, or peculiar, I might check on them.

Now, if Lucy had her cell phone with her (and we know she did, from another case), and the parents brought theirs into the unit, might it have happened so that the parents' portraits popped up in bottom of her FB in the evening?

Looking up their FB in this case would nor be so surprising.

In short, FB's own algorithm can't be discounted.
These are very good points. The important thing to consider is how FB worked back in 2015 rather than how it works today. The first alleged crime here was nearly seven and a half years ago and that length of time is glacial in electronic development terms.

I rarely use FB these days but when I do I can tell it's not the same as it was even quite recently. The "people you might know" section is no where near as prominent as it used to be. It used to randomly appear in your feed but it doesn't seem to do that anymore. Also, the people who are suggested to you today tend to be more along the lines of people who are friends of friends. I can't recall the last time when FB gave me a friend suggestion of someone who I'd met and had been in close proximity to. That seems never to happen anymore and I wonder whether it's due to some data protection/human rights issue.

The prosecution has said that she "searched" for these people. Did she, though, or did she just view a profile presented to her? Moreover, back in the day, did viewing a random profile which was presented to you get recorded somewhere as a "search"? Even if she did actually use the search bar to search for a name previous searches remain on the search bar until you remove them. If you go to search for something all the recent searches appear on the drop-down and it's tempting to hit that previous name for a catch up on their life.

I can well imagine that if you're asked years later as to why you searched for a particular person on a particular date you wouldn't remember as you may not have even registered in your own mind that hitting that name on the search bar again was a repeat search. You may well see it as a simple link to page rather than hunting someone out again.

Christmas Day is a day on which, I'd guess, that tens of millions of people would be looking people up they haven't seen in a while and suchlike. Clicking on the search bar and seeing those names from recent searches might result in a great temptation to have another look at someone, especially someone who you know has undergone a recent great trauma and especially at Christmas. In fact, it may lead to a little internal moral dilemma - if you see those names on Christmas day do you click on them or simply ignore them? I can see how someone might be conflicted in that.

The point of all this is that I think we need to know the specific nature of the FB activity before we can pass judgement on it or come to any conclusion as to its evidential value.
 
  • #388
I hope that the unit took pictures of purple discoloration. Usually any rash should be documented. They mention similar rashes on the babies.
I think it was mentioned that in one case they disappeared before they could get a picture. There were several cases so you'd think that they'd have got a picture or two at some point.
 
  • #389
This is a great point I hadn’t thought of with regards to the searches. I’ve also found if you look up someone once or twice they also stick around the people you may know section.

I gave it a try there and checked my search history (not the downloadable one, just the “recent searches” part when clicking the search bar), when a profile is viewed through the people you may know section it doesn’t show as having been accessed through a search. Managed to find the activity log section under the settings and it doesn’t appear in the search history there either, keeping in mind I’ve not downloaded the information yet and am going based on Facebooks UI. At the moment I don’t see a way a profile is logged having been viewed without having been searched but I may be wrong especially on the backend of things.
It would be interesting to know what information the police have actually obtained and from where. Whether it was information taken from her devices or whether it was from the FB end of things. I'm betting that FB records a lot more than what we think they do!
 
  • #390
Regarding the Facebook searches ..the prosecution say "She searched" not just came across these parents which would be very unlikely anyway..the defence have not challenged that yet so we will see.

It has stated at one point she searched for 3 of the alleged victims consecutively on the same day ...which no matter how I try to think about it is at best "worrying"
That along with Yesterday's messages to colleagues with the need to talk about these incidents in detail (imo) definitely paint the picture of someone invested in these tragedies....obviously I need to hear defence version
 
  • #391
Regarding the Facebook searches ..the prosecution say "She searched" not just came across these parents which would be very unlikely anyway..the defence have not challenged that yet so we will see.

It has stated at one point she searched for 3 of the alleged victims consecutively on the same day ...which no matter how I try to think about it is at best "worrying"
That along with Yesterday's messages to colleagues with the need to talk about these incidents in detail (imo) definitely paint the picture of someone invested in these tragedies....obviously I need to hear defence version
I'm thinking it seems unchallenged by the defence. With the prosecution witness Intelligence Analyst Claire Hocknell being sworn in yesterday and then leaving the stand after that portion of evidence about the Facebook searches, (returning later to deliver a different bundle of evidence) I think the time for cross-examination of that evidence has passed. Unless they're going to be waiting to cross examine her after she's presented all of the cases.
 
  • #392

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19​


9:25am

This will be the eighth day the jury will have been in Manchester Crown Court for the trial.
A reminder that the case is expected to last six months. The 12 jurors have to make themselves available for every day the trial will be taking place.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19
 
  • #393
Maybe not so much boring and unfulfilling as that she felt that her talents were being wasted.
That may well be the case. From everything I've read LL was/is a very hard working person. For her age, 25 in 2015, she appears to be highly qualified - I think it was said that she was second highest qualified on the unit on most shifts. The original report on the appeal she fronted was early 2013, I think, where she said she was at that point undergoing further training, presumably to reach the qualification level she was in 2015. She only qualified in 2011 so she seems to have a certain drive about her. Lots of people have the type of personality which doesn't allow them to sit around for long periods doing very little - they need to be out doing things and being productive.

In fact, now I think about it, I know someone exactly like that, a psych nurse, as it happens. She literally can't sit still and gets bored with things quite quickly - including relationships, unfortunately :-(
 
  • #394
But it depends on what LE were looking for. LL's "searches" (like, click on loupe sign, and enter the name), or merely her "visits" to the baby parents' pages. The pages can be accessed via the search, or via "people you might know" section. If you are just checking "visits" to someone's page, you may not necessarily see how the page was found, or accessed.
Beat me to it!
 
  • #395
  • #396
I'm thinking it seems unchallenged by the defence. With the prosecution witness Intelligence Analyst Claire Hocknell being sworn in yesterday and then leaving the stand after that portion of evidence about the Facebook searches, (returning later to deliver a different bundle of evidence) I think the time for cross-examination of that evidence has passed. Unless they're going to be waiting to cross examine her after she's presented all of the cases.
I believe this portion of the trial is still dealing with the ‘agreed evidence’
 
  • #397
I believe this portion of the trial is still dealing with the ‘agreed evidence’

I was under the impression the data analyst was prosecution evidence
 
  • #398
Sorry but it said she searched the profiles numerous times. She wouldn’t have needed to search if they were presented to her by Facebook. Also sorry this was supposed to be reply to someone else’s post and it sent without the original post.
 
  • #399
I was under the impression the data analyst was prosecution evidence
I think, though, that it's evidence that both sides accept exists/happened but not necessarily what it means?
 
  • #400
I think, though, that it's evidence that both sides accept exists/happened but not necessarily what it means?
That’s my understanding too. The ‘arguments’ will follow later.
 
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