UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #4

[JosieJo]

4:19pm

Dr Evans says, under questioning by Mr Myers, he would be happy to hear of an alternative explanation from a medical perspective for Child B, but he is happy with the conclusion he has made for Child B, that she had had an air embolus.

4:24pm

The prosecution refers to the clinical note from June 20, following the desaturations recorded. The note adds Child B 'self-corrected'.
Dr Evans: "It's a bit frightening, but she self-corrected. These things happen in babies."
He reiterates that those events noted on June 20 are a long way from what happened when Child B suffered a non-fatal collapse.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, October 25

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks for stepping in with the updates @JosieJo, I had to leave unexpectedly.

 

[JosieJo]

The defence are desperately trying to plant some doubt on the medical evidence..pulling everything they can out of the bag but they are not succeeding as yet for me

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr Evans has been going back and forth with Mr Myers about the health of Child A. Dr Evans has reiterated several times that Child A was a stable baby. He says but for an air embolism, Child A would have lived

Dr Evans said the collapse of this speed (seen in Child A) in neonatal unit with full monitoring and care is 'pretty unusual these days...babies don’t go from normal heart rate to stopping breathing'

Jury now being taken through a research paper from 1989, which Dr Evans used when reviewing this case to determine air embolism. The paper brings together 50 case studies on the phenomena https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/64/4_Spec_No/507.full.pdf

 

[Tortoise]

4:19pm

Dr Evans says, under questioning by Mr Myers, he would be happy to hear of an alternative explanation from a medical perspective for Child B, but he is happy with the conclusion he has made for Child B, that she had had an air embolus.

I am surprised the defence KC doesn't appear to be being guided in his questioning by a medical expert. IMO

 

[Tortoise]

5:02pm

The trial has been adjourned for today.
Our live coverage will continue tomorrow (Wednesday, October 26), with updates throughout the day.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, October 25

 

[merrypason]

I am surprised the defence KC doesn't appear to be being led in his questioning by a medical expert. IMO

I think he will have had a medical expert share these alternatives and coach him on how to challenge the prosecution's experts. Because all he can do is raise reasonable doubt that the experts got it wrong or missed something. But both Dr Evans and Dr Bohin held their own and seemed to answer all his questions/doubts.

 

[arrogantcat]

That's a lot more than the, what, seven/eight deaths at issue in this case! It doesn't say over what time period these deaths occurred but from the statement it's knocking on for the equivalent of ten years worth! This is a massive increase in deaths.

This leads one to ask, either; was LL around for all of these but has only been charged with some or; has she just been charged with the ones which coincide with her shifts/physical presence?

And if LL/an intentional killer didn’t cause these additional deaths, what on earth did?

 

[ShireChe]

The defence are desperately trying to plant some doubt on the medical evidence..pulling everything they can out of the bag but they are not succeeding as yet for me

I would agree. The defence are doing everything you would expect and probing all the right areas, but based on the evidence presented so far, I think it would be hard for the jury not to take the explanations of the experts.

 

[JosieJo]

"Child A's mother wept in the public gallery as Dr Bohin said she was left with only one "plausible explanation" for her son's collapse and death, which was an air embolism."

Absolutely heartbreaking for these parents it really is.

Lucy Letby: Disturbing pattern in baby deaths, nurse's trial told

A medical expert gives evidence in the cases of babies allegedly murdered by nurse Lucy Letby.

www.bbc.com

 

[Tortoise]

I think he will have had a medical expert share these alternatives and coach him on how to challenge the prosecution's experts. Because all he can do is raise reasonable doubt that the experts got it wrong or missed something. But both Dr Evans and Dr Bohin held their own and seemed to answer all his questions/doubts.

It's the following kind of questioning which I think has the opposite of the desired effect (putting it as nicely as I can) -


"Dr Evans dismisses alternatives put forward by the defence, including 'infection', saying such evidence would appear on a post-mortem examination.
He dismisses a suggestion of a 'rapidly spreading infection' in the baby as "ridiculous", as he said such evidence would again be found post-mortem by a pathologist."


KC's are trained to never ask a question to which they don't already know the answer. I thought.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It's the following kind of questioning which I think has the opposite of the desired effect (putting it as nicely as I can) -


"Dr Evans dismisses alternatives put forward by the defence, including 'infection', saying such evidence would appear on a post-mortem examination.
He dismisses a suggestion of a 'rapidly spreading infection' in the baby as "ridiculous", as he said such evidence would again be found post-mortem by a pathologist."


KC's are trained to never ask a question to which they don't already know the answer. I thought.

I agree. I suspect, though, that the defence may have their own experts to say that it is just what Mr Myers has suggested.

The prosecution witness has used the very specific and emotive word - "ridiculous". Another, possibly equally as qualified doctor, saying that it isn't "ridiculous" may do great harm to that evidence. I mean, they only need to show that it's happened once and that word would be in itself, ridiculous, surely?

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr Evans said the collapse of this speed (seen in Child A) in neonatal unit with full monitoring and care is 'pretty unusual these days...babies don’t go from normal heart rate to stopping breathing'

I was wondering about timing. This seems to answer it.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree. I suspect, though, that the defence may have their own experts to say that it is just what Mr Myers has suggested.

The prosecution witness has used the very specific and emotive word - "ridiculous". Another, possibly equally as qualified doctor, saying that it isn't "ridiculous" may do great harm to that evidence. I mean, they only need to show that it's happened once and that word would be in itself, ridiculous, surely?

I don't know how they could show a baby had a rapidly spreading infection that wasn't evident in the post mortem.

 

[merrypason]

I don't know how they could show a baby had a rapidly spreading infection that wasn't evident in the post mortem.

Yes, exactly. Because all the theories were dismissed very logically by Dr Dewey and Dr Bohin, and if the defence had another alternative, they would have asked them about it. The defence referenced a study from the 80s that Dr Dewey was able to explain away.... If there was anything more recent or more compelling, the defence would have referenced it during the cross examination.

I'm not sure they'll bring their own medical experts into this trial tbh, because it would still be 1-2 experts of theirs compared to all the doctors and nurses and professors and external experts that the prosecution are presenting. Their win will be getting the prosecution's experts to accept or admit another possibility for the death. Might be wrong though.

 

[merrypason]

Actually made me think - Ben Myers tried to devalue Dr Evans' testimony because he practised in the 80s and 90s, and insinuated his learnings were out of date as it was so long ago. Yet his defence involves a study from the 80s...

 

[BuzzC]

Was reading about the case of William Davis from Texas.

A lot of similarities to this one, particularly the defence strategy employed.

 

[bbsaz]

Actually made me think - Ben Myers tried to devalue Dr Evans' testimony because he practised in the 80s and 90s, and insinuated his learnings were out of date as it was so long ago. Yet his defence involves a study from the 80s...

That was my first thought. Following on also from the comment where someone said KCs are taught never to ask a question they don't know the answer to... I'm pretty underwhelmed with the defence KC at the moment. Don't think he has done a good job at all. HOWEVER, I've never followed a case this closely before, so maybe there is more to come, maybe the defence is deliberately a bit 'meh' and save their spectacular winning lines for when it's his turn...??

 

[bbsaz]

Actually made me think - Ben Myers tried to devalue Dr Evans' testimony because he practised in the 80s and 90s, and insinuated his learnings were out of date as it was so long ago. Yet his defence involves a study from the 80s...

That was my first thought. Following on also from the comment where someone said KCs are taught never to ask a question they don't know the answer to... I'm pretty underwhelmed with the defence KC at the moment. Don't think he has done a good job at all. HOWEVER, I've never followed a case this closely before, so maybe there is more to come, maybe the defence is deliberately a bit 'meh' and save their spectacular winning lines for when it's his turn...??

 

[Bakers]

Giving evidence at Manchester Crown Court on Monday, a nursing colleague of Letby recalled she was preparing medicines when the monitor alarm sounded at Child B’s incubator.

[...]

She told Ben Myers KC, defending, that people on the unit were talking at the time about rashes but she was not influenced by anything somebody said.

The nurse told the jury she could not remember who administered intravenous fluids to Child A shortly before his collapse but accepted she told police that another nursing colleague had “pressed start” in the process and Letby assisted with checks.

see link for more - per 10% copyright rule

Nurse thought ‘not again’ when baby suddenly collapsed, murder trial told

Lucy Letby denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others while she worked at Countess of Chester Hospital’s neonatal unit.

www.standard.co.uk

my note - another dispute with LL's own statements to police -

From opening statements:
3:36pm

When interviewed by police regarding the circumstances over Child A's death, Letby said she had given fluids to Child A at the time of the change of shifts.
She said within "maybe" five minutes, Child A developed 'almost a rash appearance, like a blotchy red marks on the skin'.
She said she had wondered whether the bag of fluid "was not what we thought it was".

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

Oh god so she gave the police a method
Of death ???,