UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[Dotta]

What can she possibly say to counteract these allegations?

THE TRUTH, you say.

I don't think it would be as simple as you imagine.

What can I say?

Im a simple person and simplicity is my motto

 

[JosieJo]

completely confused, Josie.
I do not have a single clue.
If baby C's notes weren't corrected until the 14th, was she working with incorrect notes, still not a reason to inject air anywhere but would usual checks be done? I mean checks appropriate to condition of 12th? I know handover is verbal ?
Or night of 11th?

BBM

This is interesting and significant. Looking back at earlier reports (from 2020) the initial charge of murder for baby C covered the 12th-15th of June. View attachment 377246 View attachment 377245

Looking at the Chester Standard live blog from last Thursday, it was discovered at some point that Lucy Letby wasn't on the unit that day, and this may have lead to the change in the prosecution theory.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

BBM

@kittythehare I'm a bit confused myself now ...but

In relation to the post above from @Supernovae

I wondered if LL was on night duty 11th? Therefore able to inject air into the stomach early morning on the 12th ? As well as on the 13th?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think she has backed herself into a corner with how she answered her questions to the police. For example she said that she had no recollection of searching for the parents on facebook, but they have evidence that she has consistently done this. She can't now get on the stand and say that she just searched them out of habit and to see how they were doing

I’m actually not sure if she was asked the reason for the searches and replied she didn’t remember doing it or if she just remembered doing them?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What can she possibly say to counteract these allegations?

THE TRUTH, you say.

I don't think it would be as simple as you imagine.

Slightly off topic but my experience -

Many years ago, I once got accused of something I didn't do, it was within the framework of a large institution. I absolutely did not do the thing, I wasn't present, had no part, and the allegation was ludicrous. Nobody was interested in my words, only those of the false accuser who had zero evidence and was quite vulnerable and odd. It was horrific. Other authorities and systems became involved and joined in a strange persecution of me for something that a) hadn't happened at all; b) even if it had have happened it wasn't the correct way to deal with it. They even confabulated a narrative and motivation which they based on something they knew about me, a personal vulnerability / disability, that bore no relation whatsoever to the incident at hand but was wheeled out as further 'evidence'. It was kafka-eseque and enough to make someone have a paranoid breakdown.

My response to that at the time was to feel so incredibly despairing, I just quit the whole situation, lost everything I had within that institution and walked away. It was very clear to me what was happening, I had no voice, I was being targeted and demonised for inexplicable reasons. None of it made any sense. I should have gone legal or to the police or something but I was so disheartened, confused, disempowered, dismayed, I just quietly left. The worst aspect of doing that is people think you're guilty of something. You can't win no matter what you say or do as they'll always paint it into some demonic characterisation.

We are still waiting to hear a lot more about this situation and LL but all I'm saying is, *if* she has in anyway been falsely accused or scapegoated, there's not a lot she can say or do about it. It's down to the judge and jury to tease out the truth.

 

[Marantz4250b]

There are already provable lies in her recollections of the events surrounding the death of Baby E.

They haven't started presenting evidence for baby E yet, have they? I thought the prosecution was still on baby C?

 

[kittythehare]

@kittythehare I'm a bit confused myself now ...but

In relation to the post above from @Supernovae

I wondered if LL was on night duty 11th? Therefore able to inject air into the stomach early morning on the 12th ? As well as on the 13th?

no, it was same nurse on 11th and 12th nights, I just checked notes.. but could have been more than 1.nurse.
It's a mess now.
@Tortoise can you help, PLEASE?
Anybody have it straight?
Are we dealing with 2 attacks?
Just the 1 on the night of the 13th?
The investigations concerned the 13th, right?

 

[Supernovae]

@kittythehare I'm a bit confused myself now ...but

In relation to the post above from @Supernovae

I wondered if LL was on night duty 11th? Therefore able to inject air into the stomach early morning on the 12th ? As well as on the 13th?

The prosecution seems to have accepted that nothing untoward happened prior to the 13th and that the air on the scan on the 12 was due to cpap belly.

 

[JosieJo]

The prosecution seems to have accepted that nothing untoward happened prior to the 13th and that the air on the scan on the 12 was due to cpap belly.

I just wondered rather than try and convict based on 2 attacks they went for just the one ? Due to the ambiguity of the cause of the air on the 12th ?

 

[Music2022]

The prosecution seems to have accepted that nothing untoward happened prior to the 13th and that the air on the scan on the 12 was due to cpap belly.

Which then brings the question why dr evans first said in his report that the air on the 12th is likely from an deliberate injection. If he was wrong there then this opens the door for the defence to doubt him in the future?

 

[JosieJo]

Which then brings the question why dr evans first said in his report that the air on the 12th is likely from an deliberate injection. If he was wrong there then this opens the door for the defence to doubt him in the future?

That's definitely the route the defence were going down imo

Having said that it was said "he raised the possibility "

3:17pm

Mr Myers says the 2019 report said Dr Evans raised a possibility of deliberate injection of air from June 12 via the naso-gastric tube.

Dr Evans also stated they may never know the cause of death at some point in his reports

So I'm not sure.

At the moment I do feel the evidence of cause of death is less certain with baby C so far I'm hoping the pathologist and radiology reports to come shed more light

 

[Supernovae]

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

12:49pm

The next witness to give evidence is Dr Katherine Davis, who in June 2015 was a paediatric registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
The court hears she had been working night shifts for the night Child C collapsed, and the previous night.

12:52pm

Dr Davis says she does not recall the previous night shift, but from her nursing notes on the night shift of June 12-13 she recalls the observations for Child C at 9.20pm on June 12, 2015.
The notes include "suspected sepsis" and "jaundice" on a list of ongoing problems. The latter is, the court hears, "very common" in premature babies.

12:54pm

Dr Davis added that, at that point, there had been 'no desaturations' or 'bradys' (bradycardia).
Child C was 'NBM' (nil by mouth) due to "billious aspirates".

1:02pm

Dr Davis's notes include simple drawings of the lungs and abdomen. The lungs had "good air entry", with the abdomen 'soft' and 'not discoloured'.
Dr Davis says there was "nothing worrying" about Child C's tummy at the time, noting that there would likely be air in the stomach due to him being on CPAP.

 

[Dcflag]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I read that Letby wasn't expected to take the stand. I thought it was unusual since many times that decision isn't decided until later or even at the last minute.

I’m all fairness, while the decision can be made as late as feasibly possible within the trial timeline, it’s almost always advised defendants don’t take the stand. So I’m not sure it would be unusual for it to have been decided so quickly that she wouldn’t, unless of course she changes her mind in the future.

Edit: I believe big parts of defendants not testifying can come down to how they come across on the stand. Some people, including defendants, have coaching in how to hold and present themselves. The last thing any defendant needs is to give a bad impression on a jury that didn’t need to be there by being hesitant, appearing unreliable or even just the way they carry themselves during questioning.

 

[kittythehare]

Which then brings the question why dr evans first said in his report that the air on the 12th is likely from an deliberate injection. If he was wrong there then this opens the door for the defence to doubt him in the future?

In 2019, Dr Evans also noted his “suspicion” someone inserted air into Child C’s stomach on June 12 to cause “discomfort and distress”.

He told the court the incident was “quite different” to the collapse the next day as there was “insufficient air to destabilise (Child C) from a respiratory point of view”

Dr Evans told Mr Myers: “That was my opinion at the time. As a clinician, if I receive additional information that allows me to change or modify my opinion, that is what we do as clinicians.”

Expert medical witness denies ‘reaching’ to support claims against Lucy Letby

AN expert medical witness has denied “reaching for things” to support allegations faced by nurse Lucy Letby.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I think that is reasonable and does not discredit him.

 

[Supernovae]

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

2:34pm

That concludes Dr Ogden's evidence.
Dr Gail Beech is now being called to give evidence.

2:43pm

In June 2015, Dr Beech was working at the Countess of Chester Hospital as a registrar.
She confirms working day shifts on June 11-12 and had involvement with Child C and his parents.
She confirms she carried out an ultrasound scan for child C on June 11, and the reviewing doctor recorded 'NAD' - no abnormalities detected.

3:06pm

The follow-up note showed Dr Beech had inserted the long line under sterile conditions, and was secured in at the third attempt, with the note 'happy with position', adding 'patient left comfortable'.
An x-ray of Child C, timed 12.36pm on June 12, shows the long line having been inserted.

3:12pm

An x-ray review recorded, in the comments, 'large stomach bubble, gaseous bowel'.
Dr Beech said this "wouldn't be a huge concern" given Child C was on CPAP.

 

[Music2022]

From today :
Mr Myers says the 2019 report said Dr Evans raised a possibility of deliberate injection of air from June 12 via the naso-gastric tube.
Dr Evans, reflecting on that report, said: "Can't rule it out".
Mr Myers refers to a 'massive gastric dilation' was 'most likely' due to an injection of air on June 12.
Dr Evans: "That was a possibility, yes."

I wonder did Evans use the phrase “most likey” then? And if so what made him think so when later it was decided it was just cpap belly?

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 1

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Dcflag]

"You won't get your answers [to what Letby is like] through seeing her in thed dock.

"This is what she is like six years after the allegations started. That, as you can imagine, is gruelling for anyone.

"You may want to keep that in mind as we go through the evidence in this case."

The direct quote reported by the Chester standard from Myers regarding an insight into LL potential state right now, and perhaps why it would be detrimental for her to testify herself.


Source:

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Powermjp]

One of the things that intrigued me from first hearing of this (when she was arrested and charged in November 2020) and has continued to fascinate me is that I have never read a single thing anywhere about her from anyone who knows her which is not unwaveringly complementary of her. She was first arrested over four years ago and I can't find a single comment from anyone who claims to have met her which is at all bad or which paints her in any sort of negative light.

<modsnip - rumors not permitted>

You do realise that commenting negative, or general personal comments online about her could cause a contempt of court?

From the Facebook guidelines: a post from a police force

ADVICE TO SOCIAL MEDIA USERS - CONTEMPT OF COURT

We’ve noted that several Facebook users have posted comments which may be in contempt of court on some of our stories about ‘active’ cases.
Any material which could influence members of the jury in an ongoing or imminent trial is deemed as being in contempt of court and is punishable in a court of law.
These comments have included:
- references to someone’s previous convictions
- statements about a person’s character

If you hold such information you should pass it to the police by calling 101 and quoting the relevant incident number.

While we welcome comments and healthy discussion on our Facebook page, we request that you consider your comments carefully before posting them to a public site such as this. Nothing should be posted on a public site that would contravene the law if stated in public.

The Contempt of Court Act protects the justice process and the fundamental principle that a defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

We monitor our Facebook page closely and any comments which are in contempt of court will be noted and removed. They may also be brought to the attention of the prosecution, the defence and the judge in the case.



I grew up in the same city as her, and all of the comments on the local newspaper Facebook page articles for years now, have been heavily vetted and nothing at all personal would stay there.

And on every article had a disclaimer not to post anything to cause contempt of court. There are people who went to the same school but comments were quickly removed.

I don't think its helpful to even talk and speculate and search for information about her personal life or personality, unless it comes up from a witness in court, its completely the wrong thing to do.

 

[kittythehare]

"You won't get your answers [to what Letby is like] through seeing her in thed dock.

"This is what she is like six years after the allegations started. That, as you can imagine, is gruelling for anyone.

"You may want to keep that in mind as we go through the evidence in this case."

The direct quote reported by the Chester standard from Myers regarding an insight into LL potential state right now, and perhaps why it would be detrimental for her to testify herself.


Source:

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I wouldn't blame her at all for not taking the stand.
But I understand the frustration because we do not know her at all.
I don't have the faintest idea at what could have motivated her.
I couldn't even make a wild guess.
It's most unusual to go from zero to 90 for no apparent reason in the world.

That's the crux of the case, is it not?
What was the gain or perceived gain?

The methodology is of less interest, there's a million ways to kill a tiny being weighing 2lbs that would fit in the palm of your hand.

I am not getting the why of it.

BUT this is a high bar and they wouldn't have done it on a maybe.

The Code for Crown Prosecutors | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

"You won't get your answers [to what Letby is like] through seeing her in thed dock.

"This is what she is like six years after the allegations started. That, as you can imagine, is gruelling for anyone.

"You may want to keep that in mind as we go through the evidence in this case."

The direct quote reported by the Chester standard from Myers regarding an insight into LL potential state right now, and perhaps why it would be detrimental for her to testify herself.


Source:

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Exactly what I was getting at.

 

[annpats]

Would you call it a lie if someone misremembers something?

This isn't really the time for LL to be misremembering something....or anything in fact!