UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #6

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  • #361
This article says it was a different nurse holding up the phone to Dr Brunton Murder-accused Lucy Letby 'very upset' during girl's fatal collapse
Also the article says Lucy Letby was baby D's assigned nurse, when I thought previous evidence said this was someone else?
Another point - Letby is alleged to have said 'this is the second baby this has happened to' when it must have been the fourth?
 
  • #362
  • #363
This article says it was a different nurse holding up the phone to Dr Brunton Murder-accused Lucy Letby 'very upset' during girl's fatal collapse
Also the article says Lucy Letby was baby D's assigned nurse, when I thought previous evidence said this was someone else?
Another point - Letby is alleged to have said 'this is the second baby this has happened to' when it must have been the fourth?
I’ll go back and check but I’m sure in the Chester standard updates today it said she was quoted to have said “this is the second of MY babies..”

Edited to add paragraph from the Chester standard

“She said she believed Lucy Letby was the one who had called for help, and recalled her being upset, saying what she recalled was: "This is my second baby that this has happened to".”

Source: https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23108579.live-lucy-letby-trial-tuesday-november-8/
 
  • #364
This article says it was a different nurse holding up the phone to Dr Brunton Murder-accused Lucy Letby 'very upset' during girl's fatal collapse
Also the article says Lucy Letby was baby D's assigned nurse, when I thought previous evidence said this was someone else?
Another point - Letby is alleged to have said 'this is the second baby this has happened to' when it must have been the fourth?
Oh wow, this is a very different detail than other outlets have been reported so far. And quite an important one! Wish they'd all be consistent. I haven't seen any mention of the other nurse, or that LL was designated nurse on the BBC write up - will have to see whether other news outlets capture it. OR the DM podcast when they get to this bit (they're always a few days behind).

 
  • #365
I’ll go back and check but I’m sure in the Chester standard updates today it said she was quoted to have said “this is the second of MY babies..”

Edited to add paragraph from the Chester standard

“She said she believed Lucy Letby was the one who had called for help, and recalled her being upset, saying what she recalled was: "This is my second baby that this has happened to".”

Source: LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 8

Wonder why she said 'second'? Because so far A had died, B had collapsed, C had died. She was at the resuscitation efforts of all of them.

She was only designated nurse for A. So if by 'MY' babies she meant her designated patients - D wasn't one of them. So only 1 baby (A)

And if she meant babies who died when she was resuscitating them, that was 3 babies (A, C, D).

And if she meant babies having a sudden collapse during her shift, that was 4 babies (A, B, C, D).
 
  • #366
A few thoughts so far..

Firstly this,
12:52pm

The nurse recalls the efforts made to resuscitate Child D, which were made in established guidelines, and ultimately efforts were not successful.
She recalls the parents were there at the time.
After Child D had died, she recalls having a conversation with Lucy Letby on the resuscitation drugs used.
A chart advising dose levels for the drugs would usually be kept by the child, but this A4 chart, a laminated piece of paper, was missing.
The nurse said that chart was missing, and the resuscitation drugs were administered by calculating the doses with Child D's weight, and using her years of experience.
The chart "eventually turned up", the court hears, as "it must have gone missing in the stress of everything".
Lucy Letby asked the nurse how she knew what dose levels to give, and the nurse explained how she had done so.

I’ve mentioned part of nurse training is half theory and half hands in practice. Whether an emergency or not; nurses are actually trained in their first year alone about drug calculations. This training also makes reference to drug calculations based on weight (whether neonatal or not), it is generally common knowledge in this area that it is part of training. As a “specialised nurse who took additional training” and whether this is an emergency or not, I fail to see how any nurse would not know this basic fact in drug calculation..It makes no sense at all. MOO

Secondly, I can’t believe the mix up and chaos which seems to be relayed in todays hearing, it’s quite sad, that poor baby and of course her parents and in hindsight delay of her treatment could have prevented how poorly she was in the first instance. My thoughts are very much with all those affected by this.

In terms of the external and internal phone lines with hospitals, health care providers and doctors offices for example; many of them you need to press a dedicated number (for example #4 or something) to be able to dial an outside line. Now IF this was indeed the parents of baby A&B who were on the other end of that phone call.. “someone” would need to actively dial the dedicated number in order to be able to dial an outside (external) phone number.

All my own thoughts of todays hearing of course, the laminated drug card missing is also quite bizarre,. Was LL not hovering around with a clipboard previously, did she remove it? I really don’t know what to think today- but with baby D, right from the start things are delayed, mistakes, things missing and then there’s that odd phone call in the middle of that chaos.
 
  • #367
I’ll go back and check but I’m sure in the Chester standard updates today it said she was quoted to have said “this is the second of MY babies..”

Edited to add paragraph from the Chester standard

“She said she believed Lucy Letby was the one who had called for help, and recalled her being upset, saying what she recalled was: "This is my second baby that this has happened to".”

Source: LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 8
Yes, sorry I wasn't quoting exactly. If it was the second of her babies, does that mean she was designated nurse for baby D? I thought Caroline Oakley was

source: Lucy Letby trial: Experienced nurse 'struck' by 'unusual' rash on allegedly murdered baby
 
  • #368
Wonder why she said 'second'? Because so far A had died, B had collapsed, C had died. She was at the resuscitation efforts of all of them.

She was only designated nurse for A. So if by 'MY' babies she meant her designated patients - D wasn't one of them. So only 1 baby (A)

And if she meant babies who died when she was resuscitating them, that was 3 babies (A, C, D).

And if she meant babies having a sudden collapse during her shift, that was 4 babies (A, B, C, D).
Yes that's what I was trying to get at. So odd that she would say that. Also the fact she had by this point had witnessed 4 collapses and 3 deaths within 2 weeks, in a unit where 2-3 deaths a year is normal. Plus the extremely rare rashes appearing on 3 unrelated babies. How this could have gone on for a whole year without the unit been shut down seems insane
 
  • #369
A few thoughts so far..

Firstly this,
12:52pm

The nurse recalls the efforts made to resuscitate Child D, which were made in established guidelines, and ultimately efforts were not successful.
She recalls the parents were there at the time.
After Child D had died, she recalls having a conversation with Lucy Letby on the resuscitation drugs used.
A chart advising dose levels for the drugs would usually be kept by the child, but this A4 chart, a laminated piece of paper, was missing.
The nurse said that chart was missing, and the resuscitation drugs were administered by calculating the doses with Child D's weight, and using her years of experience.
The chart "eventually turned up", the court hears, as "it must have gone missing in the stress of everything".
Lucy Letby asked the nurse how she knew what dose levels to give, and the nurse explained how she had done so.

I’ve mentioned part of nurse training is half theory and half hands in practice. Whether an emergency or not; nurses are actually trained in their first year alone about drug calculations. This training also makes reference to drug calculations based on weight (whether neonatal or not), it is generally common knowledge in this area that it is part of training. As a “specialised nurse who took additional training” and whether this is an emergency or not, I fail to see how any nurse would not know this basic fact in drug calculation..It makes no sense at all. MOO

Secondly, I can’t believe the mix up and chaos which seems to be relayed in todays hearing, it’s quite sad, that poor baby and of course her parents and in hindsight delay of her treatment could have prevented how poorly she was in the first instance. My thoughts are very much with all those affected by this.

In terms of the external and internal phone lines with hospitals, health care providers and doctors offices for example; many of them you need to press a dedicated number (for example #4 or something) to be able to dial an outside line. Now IF this was indeed the parents of baby A&B who were on the other end of that phone call.. “someone” would need to actively dial the dedicated number in order to be able to dial an outside (external) phone number.

All my own thoughts of todays hearing of course, the laminated drug card missing is also quite bizarre,. Was LL not hovering around with a clipboard previously, did she remove it? I really don’t know what to think today- but with baby D, right from the start things are delayed, mistakes, things missing and then there’s that odd phone call in the middle of that chaos.
Judith Moritz, the BBC reporter tweeted this update from the trial that validates what you're saying that LL should have known it.

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"The nurse says she had to manage without the chart. Afterwards Lucy Letby asked her how she'd done it. She said "I knew the doses as I’d worked there for a long time. I think it’s worth having those doses in your head, and I recommended to Lucy that she learn them""
https://twitter.com/JudithMoritz
 
  • #370
Yes that's what I was trying to get at. So odd that she would say that. Also the fact she had by this point had witnessed 4 collapses and 3 deaths within 2 weeks, in a unit where 2-3 deaths a year is normal. Plus the extremely rare rashes appearing on 3 unrelated babies. How this could have gone on for a whole year without the unit been shut down seems insane
I think irrespective of the Letby verdict, this hospital could face legal action after the trial. I think I read that lots of the parents have instructed lawyers. Either Letby is guilty in which case how did they continue to allow her to practice for so long after they began suspecting her, or she is found not guilty in which case the hospital is seen as causing the deaths through negligence.
 
  • #371
Yes that's what I was trying to get at. So odd that she would say that. Also the fact she had by this point had witnessed 4 collapses and 3 deaths within 2 weeks, in a unit where 2-3 deaths a year is normal. Plus the extremely rare rashes appearing on 3 unrelated babies. How this could have gone on for a whole year without the unit been shut down seems insane
Which is why it's even more weird that she was upset about TWO babies collapsing or dying, but then there were 17!! And she was messaging amongst it that the job was boring, and only involved feeds or something. Very curious about the context of that once we get to the relevant case.
 
  • #372
Judith Moritz, the BBC reporter tweeted this update from the trial that validates what you're saying that LL should have known it.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

"The nurse says she had to manage without the chart. Afterwards Lucy Letby asked her how she'd done it. She said "I knew the doses as I’d worked there for a long time. I think it’s worth having those doses in your head, and I recommended to Lucy that she learn them""
https://twitter.com/JudithMoritz
This is utterly bizarre that she found it so strange a nurse knew this that she had to ask how the nurse knew.

Which makes me realise that we don’t actually know much about LL as a nurse, her skill or confidence level or.. anything. All we have are assumptions made based on how quickly she became a band 6 nurse.
 
  • #373
Judith Moritz, the BBC reporter tweeted this update from the trial that validates what you're saying that LL should have known it.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

"The nurse says she had to manage without the chart. Afterwards Lucy Letby asked her how she'd done it. She said "I knew the doses as I’d worked there for a long time. I think it’s worth having those doses in your head, and I recommended to Lucy that she learn them""
https://twitter.com/JudithMoritz
I absolutely agree. You have THREE whole years in nurses training where a main part is also knowing and is dedicated to drug calculations alone. In the final year you MUST get 100% (depending on university but most use 90-100% correct answers) in the final exam. They cover an intense range of calculations and by the third year of training this including drip/IV rate, a range of doses and also knowing calculations based on weight. You are expected to know this (regardless of neonatal, midwifery or generic branches of nursing) effectively and confidently to even qualify. The fact LL is even questioning this I cannot even begin to understand. She’s taken specialist training, no? If she’s even asking this question in her professional (specialist) position, she either needs more training or something seems to be very wrong here. How can you even qualify without knowing or passing that exam which specifically addresses this? IMOO
 
  • #374
This is utterly bizarre that she found it so strange a nurse knew this that she had to ask how the nurse knew.

Which makes me realise that we don’t actually know much about LL as a nurse, her skill or confidence level or.. anything. All we have are assumptions made based on how quickly she became a band 6 nurse.
To be honest this sort of question she asked and the basic principle of drug calculations and weight (neonatal or not) makes me wonder the actual competence and integrity a nurse should have. How can she be specialist or have specialist training if she doesn’t know this? It’s such a concerning thing for her to be actually asking MOO
 
  • #375
This is utterly bizarre that she found it so strange a nurse knew this that she had to ask how the nurse knew.

Which makes me realise that we don’t actually know much about LL as a nurse, her skill or confidence level or.. anything. All we have are assumptions made based on how quickly she became a band 6 nurse.
Maybe she was checking it was done correctly.
 
  • #376
Maybe she was checking it was done correctly.
Perhaps; yet equally what is reported is asking how the witness knew and the witness advising her to learn them..This implies to me not that she was checking if it was done correctly; but more of a question because she didn’t seem to know.
 
  • #377
I think irrespective of the Letby verdict, this hospital could face legal action after the trial. I think I read that lots of the parents have instructed lawyers. Either Letby is guilty in which case how did they continue to allow her to practice for so long after they began suspecting her, or she is found not guilty in which case the hospital is seen as causing the deaths through negligence.
I’m surprised both dr evans and dr bohin didn’t agree the care of baby d was sup optimal. If the baby shouldve had antibiotics after birth and they were delayed then surely it isn’t the optimal way to look after the baby.
 
  • #378
Maybe she was checking it was done correctly.
But the nurse had a conversation with her where she recommended Lucy learn it? Why would she tell her to learn it if Lucy was just checking? This was after the baby had died.

Also LL was attending to the baby alongside this nurse. If the nurse got it wrong or LL had doubts she knew what to do, LL would have corrected her at the time, no? Not let a baby die because of it (you'd hope).
 
  • #379
I feel very sad for baby D, if the doctors didn’t leave her mum for so long, and done a c section sooner maybe she would’ve been in a better condition at birth and things would’ve taken a different turn. - either not been around LL if she’s guilty, or not had the breathing issues / suspected infection generally if that’s what killed her.
 
  • #380
Just a thought about the phone call error.
Often the on call consultant is at home overnight. Its "possible" someone went through to the switchboard and asked them to page the consultant.
The consultant then rings back after around a minute or so.
The ward phone may have rang and whoever picked it up may have assumed it was the consultant ringing in ...especially if in the middle of the night where less calls came from parents and with it being shortly after the consultant was paged.
The error may have been not checking who was ringing in ...easy done in an emergency situation..but I can understand why the Dr would be mortified
 
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