notsure
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Oh, is the one that had suspicions but was ignored?
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7
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Yes, he also said some of his colleagues had suspicions, but we didn't hear which ones.
notsure
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I wonder if we will hear from them during the course of the trial.
I've been wondering what it might mean, in terms of their psychology, if someone at the hospital set out to kill a baby with insulin but didn't particularly care if they weren't on duty to see it happening.
merrypason
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It’s true
Last year 227 women were killed in England and Wales.89% were killed by someone they knew. 77% were killed in their own home. Over the last five years more than 40% of women died at the hands of a partner or an ex-partner.
So what about the psychopathic strangers we see in movies?
Only 11% of female victims in England and Wales were killed by someone they didn’t know over the last five years. Many of these are terrorism related rather than a targeted attack against a specific woman.Men who target women they don't know are actually very rare, even though they make for good headlines and true crime series.
The explanation for this is quite simple. If you don't know someone then you're unlikely to have the motivation or access to kill them.
If you're a man, you're most likely to be killed by a man.
The reason that men typically kill other men are because of an escalating fight that gets out of hand or in territorial, gang related disputes.
Drugs and alcohol also play a significant role in male homicide. In 2018, over a third of both male murder victims and murder suspects were under the influence of alcohol and/or illicit drugs when then killing happened.
We imagine murder to be a meticulous and calculated event like in the movies. But in reality if you asked most murderers two hours before the act happened, they would say "I'm not capable of this". Regular human emotions such as anger, rage, jealousy and greed played a role in more than half of all murders in 2018. Most murders are not premeditated but are the result of a loss of temper.
In reality, most people who commit murder only do it once - it is one of the crimes with the least amount of re-conviction.
Most people who commit murder also regret it.
children are a similar story unfortunately as all, also much rarer than adult on adult homicide. If you exclude children in the range of ten to 15 then it also becomes much much rarer.
View attachment 380263
However, some analysts in the child abuse industry think a truer total may be double that – 100 a year, or maybe more. That was the figure quoted for the UK in a UNICEF report in 2003.
One comparatively recent addition to the many Whitehall departments all with an interest in children’s deaths, Ofsted, believes child deaths to be higher still, in the region of 200 per year. Fig 2 details the child deaths recorded by Ofsted in 2007-08 together with causes.
View attachment 380264
How many children are murdered in Britain every year? | Straight Statistics
this information is also available
• In the last five years (2015/16 – 2019/20) there was an average of 82 child homicides a year in the UK
• On average, at least one child is killed a week in the UK.
(Sources: Home Office recorded crime statistics data provided to the NSPCC, Scottish Government recorded crime statistics data provided to the NSPCC and Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI), 2020)
Although measuring similar things, the number of homicides and mortalities by assault or undetermined intent are not the same. This is because:
• homicide data relates to under 18s, whilst mortality data relates to under 15s
• homicide numbers only count deaths where homicide has been determined as
the cause of death by the police, whilst mortality numbers include deaths by
undetermined intent
• homicide data relates to deaths identified by the police as homicides within the past year. This could include deaths which occurred in the past, but which have only just been identified as homicides. Mortality data relates to the cause of death registered at the time the death occurred.
all these things whittle down into pools of data relating to the likelihood of one person or more murdering someone else. Now when multiple people are murdered by one individual alone without personal connection it’s even rarer, extremely rare.
Serial killing is the rarest form of homicide, occurring when an individual has killed three or more people who were previously unknown to him or her, with a ‘cooling off’ period between each murder. This definition is accepted by both police and academic experts and therefore provides a useful frame of reference. Unfortunately, it also narrows the analysis of such crimes, as it fails to incorporate many of the familiar (although not inevitable) characteristics of serial killing. These include such things as the diverse influences of the mass media on serial killers as well as their tendency to select victims from particular walks of life. Attending to these (and other) factors can provide insight into the broader social and historical contexts that constitute the structural preconditions for such acts.
Mass urbanisation is a distinctive characteristic of the modern era, something that has profoundly altered the nature of human relationships by virtue of generating an unprecedented degree of anonymity.. Perhaps the most terrifying aspect of serial murder is that such killings appear random. This, however, is a misleading characterisation, for while serial killers do target strangers, their victims are not haphazard (Wilson, 2007). Rather, the victims of serial killers tend to mimic the wider cultural categories of denigration characteristic of contemporary society.
The social study of serial killers | Centre for Crime and Justice Studies
www.crimeandjustice.org.uk
if LL is convicted she will be officially called a serial killer Or a health care serial murderer Or “Hcsm” which is rarer still. So rare in the uk there are no stats on it really but this is close and covers the population of the USA.
“It is estimated that an average of 35 Americans are killed by HCSM per year.2 The true numbers are likely higher, given that these crimes are often missed for years. Most convicted of HCSM are charged with fewer murders than they admit to.”
the reason they are often missed is due to most hcsm cases relate to the elderly as they are most often the target of hcsm.
Box 1 summarizes characteristics of health care murderers described anecdotally in case reviews.2,3,8 It is common for those committing HCSM to be caught because a colleague or staff member raises concerns based on suspicious characteristics in the context of unusual or concerning circumstances. An index of suspicion from other staff (including physicians) in response to unusual or repeated events is crucial to stopping HCSM; unfortunately, this commonly happens only after multiple deaths.
Box 1.
Anecdotal “red flag” characteristics described in health care serial murderers
Personal traits
- History of substance abuse or active misuse
- Secretive or difficult personal relationships
- History of mental instability or depression, particularly a diagnosis of personality disorder
- Craving attention or enthusiastic about his or her skills
- History of criminal activities, especially falsification of credentials or work documentation
Work history
- Work instability (moves from one site to another)
- History of disciplinary problems
- Preference for work shifts when fewer co-workers are around
- History of incidents at other facilities
Characteristics that might be noted by co-workers or other staff
- Colleagues anxious or suspicious, especially when they are covering patients during breaks
- Might have nicknames such as “Angel of Death” or “Assassin”
- Makes predictions about who might die and when patients will die
- Found in places in the work environment where they should not be
- Higher incidence of death on his or her shift
- Makes inconsistent statements when challenged about deaths
Data from Yorker et al,2 Karger et al,3 and Yardley and
Wilson.8
Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story? - PMC
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
all of this together might give an idea as to just how unlikely it is that someone can be guilty of seven murders of newborn children. It’s a very narrow list of potential people. There are a few things that make LL fit the general profile of what she is accused of IMO.
1. female serial killers are more likely to use poison as a method.
They’re often described as “quiet” killers: They typically don’t butcher, nor torture. They prefer poison — in 50 percent of all cases — and smothering to conspicuous knives and guns. They also tend to kill at home or at work, drawing less attention than the random, far-flung sprees common among men. In a 2013 paper analyzing the characteristics of female serial killers, sociologist Amanda Farrell wrote that they kill, on average, over longer stretches of time than their male counterparts.
2. 3.4.
Female Serial Killers Do Exist And Are Known As 'Quiet' Killers
We may hear more about male serial killers, like Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy, but female serial killers do exist. They just murder for different reasons.www.discovermagazine.com
5.Health care murderers have a range of lethal approaches that can be hard to detect. Injected medications (opioids, potassium chloride, and insulin) are the “weapons” of choice (52%) and can be hard to identify after death. Suffocation, including forcing water into the victim’s lungs, accounts for roughly 15% of deaths.
- Makes predictions about who might die and when patients will die
- Found in places in the work environment where they should not be
- Higher incidence of death on his or her shift
Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story? - PMC
6. “most hcsm involve either the very young or very old”
Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story? - PMC
I'm going to be honest here and say that you are trying to use statistics to prove someone didn't do something which is not the correct use of it. Don't really understand the point of including it here being this case is not based on statistics but on the evidence of medical experts, her text messages, the evidence of eye witnesses and medical notes made at the time.It’s true
Last year 227 women were killed in England and Wales.89% were killed by someone they knew. 77% were killed in their own home. Over the last five years more than 40% of women died at the hands of a partner or an ex-partner.
So what about the psychopathic strangers we see in movies?
Only 11% of female victims in England and Wales were killed by someone they didn’t know over the last five years. Many of these are terrorism related rather than a targeted attack against a specific woman.Men who target women they don't know are actually very rare, even though they make for good headlines and true crime series.
The explanation for this is quite simple. If you don't know someone then you're unlikely to have the motivation or access to kill them.
If you're a man, you're most likely to be killed by a man.
The reason that men typically kill other men are because of an escalating fight that gets out of hand or in territorial, gang related disputes.
Drugs and alcohol also play a significant role in male homicide. In 2018, over a third of both male murder victims and murder suspects were under the influence of alcohol and/or illicit drugs when then killing happened.
We imagine murder to be a meticulous and calculated event like in the movies. But in reality if you asked most murderers two hours before the act happened, they would say "I'm not capable of this". Regular human emotions such as anger, rage, jealousy and greed played a role in more than half of all murders in 2018. Most murders are not premeditated but are the result of a loss of temper.
In reality, most people who commit murder only do it once - it is one of the crimes with the least amount of re-conviction.
Most people who commit murder also regret it.
children are a similar story unfortunately as all, also much rarer than adult on adult homicide. If you exclude children in the range of ten to 15 then it also becomes much much rarer.
View attachment 380263
However, some analysts in the child abuse industry think a truer total may be double that – 100 a year, or maybe more. That was the figure quoted for the UK in a UNICEF report in 2003.
One comparatively recent addition to the many Whitehall departments all with an interest in children’s deaths, Ofsted, believes child deaths to be higher still, in the region of 200 per year. Fig 2 details the child deaths recorded by Ofsted in 2007-08 together with causes.
View attachment 380264
How many children are murdered in Britain every year? | Straight Statistics
this information is also available
• In the last five years (2015/16 – 2019/20) there was an average of 82 child homicides a year in the UK
• On average, at least one child is killed a week in the UK.
(Sources: Home Office recorded crime statistics data provided to the NSPCC, Scottish Government recorded crime statistics data provided to the NSPCC and Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI), 2020)
Although measuring similar things, the number of homicides and mortalities by assault or undetermined intent are not the same. This is because:
• homicide data relates to under 18s, whilst mortality data relates to under 15s
• homicide numbers only count deaths where homicide has been determined as
the cause of death by the police, whilst mortality numbers include deaths by
undetermined intent
• homicide data relates to deaths identified by the police as homicides within the past year. This could include deaths which occurred in the past, but which have only just been identified as homicides. Mortality data relates to the cause of death registered at the time the death occurred.
all these things whittle down into pools of data relating to the likelihood of one person or more murdering someone else. Now when multiple people are murdered by one individual alone without personal connection it’s even rarer, extremely rare.
Serial killing is the rarest form of homicide, occurring when an individual has killed three or more people who were previously unknown to him or her, with a ‘cooling off’ period between each murder. This definition is accepted by both police and academic experts and therefore provides a useful frame of reference. Unfortunately, it also narrows the analysis of such crimes, as it fails to incorporate many of the familiar (although not inevitable) characteristics of serial killing. These include such things as the diverse influences of the mass media on serial killers as well as their tendency to select victims from particular walks of life. Attending to these (and other) factors can provide insight into the broader social and historical contexts that constitute the structural preconditions for such acts.
Mass urbanisation is a distinctive characteristic of the modern era, something that has profoundly altered the nature of human relationships by virtue of generating an unprecedented degree of anonymity.. Perhaps the most terrifying aspect of serial murder is that such killings appear random. This, however, is a misleading characterisation, for while serial killers do target strangers, their victims are not haphazard (Wilson, 2007). Rather, the victims of serial killers tend to mimic the wider cultural categories of denigration characteristic of contemporary society.
The social study of serial killers | Centre for Crime and Justice Studies
if LL is convicted she will be officially called a serial killer Or a health care serial murderer Or “Hcsm” which is rarer still. So rare in the uk there are no stats on it really but this is close and covers the population of the USA.
“It is estimated that an average of 35 Americans are killed by HCSM per year.2 The true numbers are likely higher, given that these crimes are often missed for years. Most convicted of HCSM are charged with fewer murders than they admit to.”
the reason they are often missed is due to most hcsm cases relate to the elderly as they are most often the target of hcsm.
Box 1 summarizes characteristics of health care murderers described anecdotally in case reviews.2,3,8 It is common for those committing HCSM to be caught because a colleague or staff member raises concerns based on suspicious characteristics in the context of unusual or concerning circumstances. An index of suspicion from other staff (including physicians) in response to unusual or repeated events is crucial to stopping HCSM; unfortunately, this commonly happens only after multiple deaths.
Box 1.
Anecdotal “red flag” characteristics described in health care serial murderers
Personal traits
- History of substance abuse or active misuse
- Secretive or difficult personal relationships
- History of mental instability or depression, particularly a diagnosis of personality disorder
- Craving attention or enthusiastic about his or her skills
- History of criminal activities, especially falsification of credentials or work documentation
Work history
- Work instability (moves from one site to another)
- History of disciplinary problems
- Preference for work shifts when fewer co-workers are around
- History of incidents at other facilities
Characteristics that might be noted by co-workers or other staff
- Colleagues anxious or suspicious, especially when they are covering patients during breaks
- Might have nicknames such as “Angel of Death” or “Assassin”
- Makes predictions about who might die and when patients will die
- Found in places in the work environment where they should not be
- Higher incidence of death on his or her shift
- Makes inconsistent statements when challenged about deaths
Data from Yorker et al,2 Karger et al,3 and Yardley and
Wilson.8
Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story? - PMC
all of this together might give an idea as to just how unlikely it is that someone can be guilty of seven murders of newborn children. It’s a very narrow list of potential people. There are a few things that make LL fit the general profile of what she is accused of IMO.
1. female serial killers are more likely to use poison as a method.
They’re often described as “quiet” killers: They typically don’t butcher, nor torture. They prefer poison — in 50 percent of all cases — and smothering to conspicuous knives and guns. They also tend to kill at home or at work, drawing less attention than the random, far-flung sprees common among men. In a 2013 paper analyzing the characteristics of female serial killers, sociologist Amanda Farrell wrote that they kill, on average, over longer stretches of time than their male counterparts.
2. 3.4.Female Serial Killers Do Exist And Are Known As 'Quiet' Killers
We may hear more about male serial killers, like Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy, but female serial killers do exist. They just murder for different reasons.
5.Health care murderers have a range of lethal approaches that can be hard to detect. Injected medications (opioids, potassium chloride, and insulin) are the “weapons” of choice (52%) and can be hard to identify after death. Suffocation, including forcing water into the victim’s lungs, accounts for roughly 15% of deaths.
- Makes predictions about who might die and when patients will die
- Found in places in the work environment where they should not be
- Higher incidence of death on his or her shift
Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story? - PMC
6. “most hcsm involve either the very young or very old”
Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story? - PMC
you see just how out of anything documented before this would be?
You need to move away from statistics to focus purely on the facts of THIS case. Really understand the entire picture of what is being presented, not in a silo, but as the totality of a nurse doing or not doing her job.
None of us know anything about LL. Like you know less than 1% of how she lived her life or what people thought of her. All you know is the evidence being presented by the prosecution, and being cross examined by the defence.
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An attempt to take the heat off themselves, if people were starting to get suspicious of their presence at several collapses? Set up somebody else instead ?
ETA Or maybe they wrongly thought the effect would be quicker than it was Then they had no choice but to leave when their shift ended before either it had taken effect, or before they'd had a chance to carry out what they wanted to do?
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It is still kind of early in terms of the babies that were affected. The pattern was just beginning to emerge.
Maybe no one said they were suspicious at this time--but I think some of the texts to her imply there was some level of wondering. They say point blank--' you are having a run of bad luck.'
That is pinpointing the recognition that she was the common denominator in some ways.
Does anyone know how these TPN bags work? Are they set up to very slowly administer fluids, like miniscule amounts, over several or many hours? Or is it a short dose automatically administered every once in a while?
merrypason
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They have pulled it into a complete forensic narrative though. You are getting 10% of the details reported and shared with the jurors. This trial has taken 6 years and multi million pounds, the jurors are getting a lot more details and context than we are - for the simple reason we are reliant on journalist live texting (many days they don't do this) and the jurors are not.
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Looking at some older news stories and this one from the week LL was arrested has some interesting info :
Nurse held over 8 baby murders investigated by ANOTHER hospital she worked at
A SECOND hospital is investigating a nurse at the centre of a police probe into the suspected murder of eight babies in Chester. Liverpool Women’s Hospital said today it is assisting detectiv…www.thesun.co.uk
thats another thing worth paying attention to. She is only charged with seven murders but there is an investigation into 15 deaths. i believe that investigation involved stillbirths as well which I believe is a different unit. I think in a year a unit dealing with 2200 births shouldn’t be any more than four or five Deaths. im wondering why when even without the charges the number is still over the limits.
not In line with munchausen IMO. Could be the thrill of it maybe, with the facts as they are other people are close by and if your doing it under their noses you are probably seeking a thrill. In this case it’s apparent that she would had to have done it when there is other people working on the same baby and in the same room as when this AE is probably alleged to have happened. With a dr in direct attendance to the situation as a whole.
you will almost definitely IMO. I think you can expect a pretty thorough going through of things by the defence. He hasn’t exactly been holding back so far. his current line of questioning is pretty acute, I wonder what he will be like when presenting his case.
I would be very interested to know if the moniters being used at the time would have detected any changes after the alleged 9pm trauma. I expect not as there is no charge for it and so presumably no evidence.
merrypason
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Could you please show us the source where you can see the investigation also looking into still births please?
Also can you show us the source where the NEONATAL unit was dealing with 2200 births please?
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I think the vagueness is due to the fact that the reporting can't really get it all across. I get the impression that we are missing a lot and a lot of the nuance to it all.
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TPN is usually administered at a set rate continuously. A 1.2 kg baby on TPN who is partly feeding breast milk might get 1-3 mL per hour depending on how much breastmilk they are receiving. "Miniscule amounts over many hours" is exactly how I'd describe it.
Just wondering how many times that night did she call her husband?
Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc
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She called her husband at 9.11pm and then later a midwife from the postnatal ward either called him on behalf of the mother or advised the mother to call, I'm sorry I cannot recollect which.
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That^^^ is a really important point. We have seen that here, when we follow trials by tweet, and then one of our members actually attend the trial. When they report in to us, they describe many things that we never heard in the reporter's tweets. You cannot keep up with the actual evidence flow when you are trying to do so tweet by tweet.
If she did this (Baby F), then I think she was setting up the attack so that it happened while she was away, to make her connection with the other deaths look less suspicious. It might have been a utilitarian attack rather than one for her own enjoyment.
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This further supports that it couldn't have happened at 8pm. Baby E was being fed 2 hourly on odd hours. In NICU, cares are carried out at the same time as feeds to minimise handling and allow babies to sleep as much as possible in between. In my opinion, I find it unlikely that cares would have been done at 8pm.
I agree. It's not unusual for staff to have their phones on the floor, but actively texting when you should be working is another thing. It is another tick in the box labelled 'poor management', IMO, as it's strong enforcement of policies around personal phone use that would ensure that that isn't happening so much.
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