UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Sundial]

This is what strikes me too. Those poor little babies, what they have gone through, tiny little infants and how much pain they must have been in doesn’t bare thinking about. And yet there is almost no mention making reference to these kinds of thoughts from her.
IMO she seems somewhat quite detached emotionally (if she loved and lived for her job as much as is described) and instead she seems to just bounce from one message to another (even on shift) with very little reference to how much distress these babies must have gone through. For something so harrowing she appears almost “empty” in terms of emotion in her text exchanges imo.

She isn’t even questioning much in these exchanges either, shock or disbelief that we’ve seen mentioned by other colleagues thus far. Even the nursery nurse who had worked there for 10 plus years stated her despair at what was going on she said something such as “what is happening here”

One of the doctors testimonies stated how he was in tears and off work for a while after one of the deaths. I think at the start she may have mentioned how she felt (baby A?) but then all these subsequent deaths that follow; if your surrounded by an increase of collapses (some resulting in death) which to read in itself are extremely upsetting, she seems to have this very odd detached empathetic sense to what’s going on around her. It’s almost as if she’s somewhat oblivious as these incidents stack up. It seems quite worrying IMO

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Ms Letby's defence counsel, Mr Myers is now questioning Dr Gibbs

Mr Myers puts it to Dr Gibbs that against the backdrop of all Child H had been through - the insertion of multiple chest drains - it was 'no surprise' she had a collapse on 26 September. Dr Gibbs says he 'was surprised' by her collapse as she had been stable

The judge has asked Mr Myers to clarify whether he is suggesting Child H's collapse came as a consequence of the procedures (chest drains/intubations etc), he says yes

He says, with particular reference to the drain fitted by Dr Jayaram, that he wants the jury to look 'where it goes and what it could have done'

Court has now adjourned, back Monday.

 

[Anxala]

The text suggests LL may have been writing down things that were said to or about her by others.

Agree. I've read it numerous times and that was both my initial impression - LL, clearly overwrought, trying to make sense of what's been said about her and the situation she finds herself in - and how it still reads to me now.

That's not, of course, to say she's innocent, just that that postit note really can't and shouldn't be used as evidence of guilt.

JMO.

 

[Anxala]

This is what strikes me too. Those poor little babies, what they have gone through, tiny little infants and how much pain they must have been in doesn’t bare thinking about. And yet there is almost no mention making reference to these kinds of thoughts from her.
IMO she seems somewhat quite detached emotionally (if she loved and lived for her job as much as is described) and instead she seems to just bounce from one message to another (even on shift) with very little reference to how much distress these babies must have gone through. For something so harrowing she appears almost “empty” in terms of emotion in her text exchanges imo.

Although you could also argue and conclude that distance is crucial in order to be able to continue to do the job she and others do? Death is an integral part of a nurses' job and, I'd guess, particularly so in a neonatal unit where such fragility reigns.

Her response, or lack thereof, in context, seems a very normal one to me.

 

[Tortoise]

Adrenaline for babies in cardiac arrest rare until 2015, nurse trial told | ITV News

Lucy Letby: Doctor rejects chest drain claim, trial told

 

[Tortoise]

Three doses of adrenaline were administered to help stimulate the heart of the youngster and her heart rate eventually rose to a safe level after 22 minutes of resuscitation.

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, asked the now retired doctor: “Was the use of adrenaline in those circumstances a commonplace occurrence?”

Dr Gibbs replied: “No. It was becoming more common as events continued on the unit with repeated collapses of babies. Until 2015, uncommon.”

Adrenaline for babies in cardiac arrest rare until 2015, nurse trial told | ITV News

Not mentioned in the tweets today

 

[WaxLyrical]

Agree. I've read it numerous times and that was both my initial impression - LL, clearly overwrought, trying to make sense of what's been said about her and the situation she finds herself in - and how it still reads to me now.

That's not, of course, to say she's innocent, just that that postit note really can't and shouldn't be used as evidence of guilt.

JMO.

To me the note reads like a reflective exercise, which I understand nurses have to do as part of their training, including writing notes and bullet points.

The Gibbs reflective cycle starts with a description of the situation, then your thoughts and feelings on it, and then an evaluation which includes what other people’s reactions were both then and now.

There’s been a suggestion now that more senior nurses took issue with her being designated to poorly babies. So the “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” may have been LL’s evaluation of what others were thinking, ie there’s an implied “they think” at the start of that sentence.

We also don’t know anything yet about the numerous diaries and notes they recovered that they say had many protestations of innocence.

The note just doesn’t feel like a confession to me.

JMO.

 

[Dotta]

Although you could also argue and conclude that distance is crucial in order to be able to continue to do the job she and others do? Death is an integral part of a nurses' job and, I'd guess, particularly so in a neonatal unit where such fragility reigns.

Her response, or lack thereof, in context, seems a very normal one to me.

I firmly believe that a person lacking empathy has no place in medical profession.

Such a person would be a failure.

An optimistic, sympathetic nurse can make wonders with kind and reassuring words spoken to a patient.

And what is more, such a nurse does not need to assure
"Trust me, I'm a nurse".

Because patients, when the most vulnerable, can sense empathy and trust them wholeheartedly.

The same relates to the teaching profession.

JMO

 

[Sundial]

Although you could also argue and conclude that distance is crucial in order to be able to continue to do the job she and others do? Death is an integral part of a nurses' job and, I'd guess, particularly so in a neonatal unit where such fragility reigns.

Her response, in context, seems a normal one to me.

Granted, a fair and valid point; where I’ve worked I have experienced similar where a patient has sadly passed away and professionalism is needed and also keeping emotional feelings (somewhat) in check.

Despite this, even with one sad non-suspicious death, colleagues do (granted not all of them) reflect on these things, their feelings. It’s what makes us human.

I think what bothers me is the sheer number of these deaths and collapses and her reaction (or lack of) in her dialogues with colleagues. If it were one or two, as “was” the situation prior to 2015 according to the reports, I could possibly understand her reaction as wanting to remain professional or to try and carry as normal, that’s not necessarily unusual in this type of work.

When your suddenly having significantly more deaths than is usual, quite harrowing, babies bleeding unexpectedly, parents accounts even asking similar questions, doctors and colleagues who have worked there for years, I don’t know any genuine, empathic medical professional who 1. Would not be affected by all those upsetting tiny lives lost or injured and 2. Appears to be the only who is almost aloof and totally detached about what was going on in that environment at the time.

What I do see personally (and this is just my opinion); is performance focused, self, saving the day, her comment, “thinking of me when they have lost him”, this wirey, bouncing around messaging everyone (even whilst on duty), throwing around diagnosis’s and trawling through Facebook looking up these families.
IMO I find this not only really unprofessional and insensitive (why does she actually need to search parents who have lost their baby?, or even be searching them at all regardless), but quite worrying really whether guilty or not.

 

[Sundial]

Three doses of adrenaline were administered to help stimulate the heart of the youngster and her heart rate eventually rose to a safe level after 22 minutes of resuscitation.

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, asked the now retired doctor: “Was the use of adrenaline in those circumstances a commonplace occurrence?”

Dr Gibbs replied: “No. It was becoming more common as events continued on the unit with repeated collapses of babies. Until 2015, uncommon.”

Adrenaline for babies in cardiac arrest rare until 2015, nurse trial told | ITV News

Not mentioned in the tweets today

Even this is worrying.

 

[Sundial]

To me the note reads like a reflective exercise, which I understand nurses have to do as part of their training, including writing notes and bullet points.

The Gibbs reflective cycle starts with a description of the situation, then your thoughts and feelings on it, and then an evaluation which includes what other people’s reactions were both then and now.

There’s been a suggestion now that more senior nurses took issue with her being designated to poorly babies. So the “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” may have been LL’s evaluation of what others were thinking, ie there’s an implied “they think” at the start of that sentence.

We also don’t know anything yet about the numerous diaries and notes they recovered that they say had many protestations of innocence.

The note just doesn’t feel like a confession to me.

JMO.

I’m interested to hear more about the post-it notes. There was also reportedly post-it notes found with some of her colleagues names written on them.

 

[ColourPurple]

Although you could also argue and conclude that distance is crucial in order to be able to continue to do the job she and others do? Death is an integral part of a nurses' job and, I'd guess, particularly so in a neonatal unit where such fragility reigns.

Her response, or lack thereof, in context, seems a very normal one to me.

Before this case I'd assumed that deaths in a neonatal unit would be quite common too but looking at the info, up until 2015 the number of deaths per year in the neonatal unit stayed between 1 and 3 per year. In 2015 it suddenly jumped to 8 and LL is accused of causing 5 of those deaths, with 3 happening in the same 2 week period in June 2015. So the sudden increase in deaths in a short period of time was certainly out of the ordinary. Even without the info we've heard about the deaths occuring in babies that weren't expected to die.

Mortality rates at the neonatal unit​

Figures showing the number of babies who died at the facility between 2009 and 2016:

• 2009 - 3
• 2010 - 1
• 2011 - 3
• 2012 - 3
• 2013 - 2
• 2014 - 3
• 2015 - 8
• 2016 - 5

Nurse held over 8 baby murders investigated by ANOTHER hospital she worked at

A SECOND hospital is investigating a nurse at the centre of a police probe into the suspected murder of eight babies in Chester. Liverpool Women’s Hospital said today it is assisting detectiv…

www.thesun.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

I think as well that the times in which she has said things of an implicative nature that could be used to draw an inference that she is lacking in awareness of how other people may be looking at her which is normally present in people of a deceitful Nature. She can’t plot and plan if she is unaware that people are thinking negatively of her Which seems to be the case. She is noticeably oblivious that these events are suspicious and might reflect badly on her which one wouldn’t expect from someone who knows what they have done and is feeling conspicuous thus presenting good motivation to move to a different hospital and taking off the heat.

again if she did falsify those notes how was it she knew that it would be her word against the mothers rather than her word against the mothers plus staff? That would take an immense amount of calculation and foresight and is a weak strategy with too much risk.

how is it that a cunning and strategic individual would fail to see the implications of claiming she didn’t know what an air embolism was if guilty and that she doesn’t remember the fb searches? I would argue that a cunning, deceitful and scheming individual would understand that it would be better to state she was just checking on how the family was doing which is more innocuous. Also she mentioned the tpn bag which again is remarkable if she was guilty.

it seems everyone here noticed how unusual that is so why didn’t this supposed master of deception?

my post stating the supposed chaotic nature of the unit would provide ample opportunity for a killer to blend in is proposed under the idea that it is that but that’s jmo. I can’t say for sure that all the instances given of a supposedly chaotic unit are out of line with what is reasonable to expect on a unit like the one in question. If it is operational and ordered and in line with the guidelines and law then that still goes against the idea that someone would be able to do this and get away with it For so long. Isn’t it also stated by the prosecution and staff that the unit is functional and in good accord with the guidelines?

I also think that the move to day shifts would in the mind of a scheming individual start to ring alarm bells. Which it didn’t apparently again suggesting she isn’t putting on a act or trying to hide something. Also the fact that this potentially alarming change in routine didn’t give LL the motivation for a change in approach or location is again against the idea that she is trying to hide something Or is aware that she is suspected of wrong doing.

I will give an example. In one of the cases it was said that a nurse didn’t record one of the feeds what I can’t say is to what degree that is unreasonable to expect and to what degree of severity it is against the rules.

jmo.

"She can’t plot and plan if she is unaware that people are thinking negatively of her Which seems to be the case. She is noticeably oblivious that these events are suspicious and might reflect badly on her..."

I think even the earliest texts show that she WAS aware that people were thinking negatively about her. She seemed especially sensitive to that. When the first 2 babies collapsed, colleagues sympathised and mentioned she had a 'run of bad luck' and she quickly replied by asking 'who said that? it could happen to anyone, etc'

"again if she did falsify those notes how was it she knew that it would be her word against the mothers rather than her word against the mothers plus staff? That would take an immense amount of calculation and foresight and is a weak strategy with too much risk."

A weak strategy with too much risk.. <<< that seems to describe her overall actions, if she is guilty


"...it seems everyone here noticed how unusual that is so why didn’t this supposed master of deception?"

I don't think anyone claims she is a 'master' of deception. I just see her as allegedly deceptive. She may not have mastered that trait but she seems to exhibit it at times, imo.

"how is it that a cunning and strategic individual would fail to see the implications of claiming she didn’t know what an air embolism was if guilty and that she doesn’t remember the fb searches?"

I think it is because being interviewed by investigators about murdered babies is very stressful. One cannot possibly foresee all the implications of one's various answers in each moment.

Saying 'I don't remember' or ' I don't know' is an automatic, default answer when under duress. We see it during almost every interrogation of an alleged killer. There is no perfect answer available to a guilty party.

 

[Dcflag]

Would love to know that those "comments" regarding her role were..

The fact that she had such high praise, that she felt necessary to show to a person.. in contrast to previously being the target of bitchiness between staff.. it puts the emphasis on the potential of events being or has treated to demonstrate her superior nursing ability.

Basically, there’s clearly been inter staff concern or discussion about her ability prior to all of this.

 

[mummyshark]

I wasn’t actually aware that there was a neonatal unit at this other hospital. Referenced to by Lucy as the woman’s hospital. Presumably if she was a serial killer who only targeted babies it would still be equally if not more in her interests to go to a place with less suspicion, clean slate And what seems to be personal aversion. Looking at those texts she shared with dr av. I would anticipate a cunning individual seeing those benefits as outweighing the negative of the new hospital being further away. The fact she stayed at coch and is seemingly oblivious to how unusual these events are is something to note by me.she really is not acting like someone who has something to hide.

I find your defence of LL really odd. I have no idea if she's guilty or innocent at this point, but you seem to have made your mind up long ago. No matter what is said you seem to twist it to show that she is innocent - most obviously in your argument as to why she would want to leave and then why she would want to stay.

I can understand that, in light of the number of deaths and near deaths, someone would want to see her as guilty and would pick up on the evidence that supports that. Babies died. There is no making sense of that, but I can understand wanting someone to be responsible. The alternative is too scary (I'm a mum of 3 premature babies), but I can't understand what motivates someone to want to find someone innocent of such a heinous crime, before all evidence has been heard, unless they have some connection or vested interest.

 

[katydid23]

More detailed description of the defense cross examination of the doctor who was most suspicious of LL.

TV doctor in Lucy Letby trial denies wrongly inserting lung drain

Dr Ravi Jayaram, now the lead paediatrician at the Countess of Chester Hospital, was said to have inserted a lung drain in the wrong part of her chest.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

Agree. I've read it numerous times and that was both my initial impression - LL, clearly overwrought, trying to make sense of what's been said about her and the situation she finds herself in - and how it still reads to me now.

That's not, of course, to say she's innocent, just that that postit note really can't and shouldn't be used as evidence of guilt.

JMO.

It doesn't read like that to me. She doesn't say 'THEY SAY I am evil.'

Most specifically, look at the very bottom of the post it. The very bottom sentence, ALL BY ITSELF, written in CAPITAL LETTERS, with nothing in front saying 'they say; or anything like that, she wrote in all caps:

I AM EVIL I DID THIS


How does that^^^ imply that she is discussing what others were saying about her?

'I AM EVIL. I DID THIS': Post-It notes written by nurse Lucy Letby

On day four of her trial at Manchester Crown Court the jury was told that messages written by Lucy Letby, 32, were found at her home after her arrest including one that said: 'I killed them on purpose.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

It doesn't read like that to me. She doesn't say 'THEY SAY I am evil.'

Most specifically, look at the very bottom of the post it. The very bottom sentence, ALL BY ITSELF, written in CAPITAL LETTERS, with nothing in front saying 'they say; or anything like that, she wrote in all caps:

I AM EVIL. I DID THIS


How does that^^^ imply that she is discussing what others were saying about her?

What I find the most bizarre and strangest thing about that note, more than anything else; if she loved and lived for her job, built her life around it etc, dedicated herself to helping and saving poorly/ tiny premature babies and hoped she did her best for them and their families; is the lack of any kind of reference to them in what she writes.

The same with her text exchange, it’s very disconnected from empathy.

 

[Dotta]

"Dr Gibbs said it was the first and only time in his career that three chest drains were needed with one patient.

The court heard that usually only “two or three” such procedures would be carried out at the unit in a whole year."

Lucy Letby trial: Doctor says baby girl was in 'precarious' situation

GIVING adrenaline to help revive babies in cardiac arrest was “uncommon” until 2015 when a series of repeated collapses began, the trial of a…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

I find your defence of LL really odd. I have no idea if she's guilty or innocent at this point, but you seem to have made your mind up long ago. No matter what is said you seem to twist it to show that she is innocent - most obviously in your argument as to why she would want to leave and then why she would want to stay.

I can understand that, in light of the number of deaths and near deaths, someone would want to see her as guilty and would pick up on the evidence that supports that. Babies died. There is no making sense of that, but I can understand wanting someone to be responsible. The alternative is too scary (I'm a mum of 3 premature babies), but I can't understand what motivates someone to want to find someone innocent of such a heinous crime, before all evidence has been heard, unless they have some connection or vested interest.

It seems to me that nearly ALL posters here have made their minds a long time ago - even before the trial.

But it is my subjective opinion following the threads