UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[LadyEdgeworth]

If guilty then why repeatedly say things to other people which connect you to the crimes? The more you do stuff like that then sooner or later people are going to put it all together. It makes no sense.

The best lies are the ones closest to the truth. If you act like you weren't there, don't care/it's all great then you will stick out like a sore thumb. If you 'blend in' by also acting concerned, and without saying any outright blatant lies you usually end up okay.

For example: When I was a kid I broke our tv by accident, instead of just confessing I turned it off and left it for someone else to find. When it was discovered that it was broken, instead of saying 'no I've never even used the TV today I was nowhere near it and it's always been fine for me' I went with 'Oh yeah.. it was playing up a bit when I used it earlier but seemed fine when I turned it off, it's not been right for a while I think'. Better to stick as close to the truth as you possibly can to be more believable.

MOO

 

[Legal]

With regard to the comment in the text message stating "our job is a pleasure to do", I've read a little on forensic linguistics (a fascinating subject imo but I'm definitely no expert!) and it's interesting how she uses a passive form. It could be argued it would be more usual to say "I love my job." I am getting the impression she actually hated the job (comments about boredom, wanting to escape at 3 in the morning etc) and she is trying to act as a nurse who did love the job, would act. Perhaps she didn't feel she could express that she hated being a nurse as caring for babies is seemingly so revered and she took out her anger and frustration on the patients (if guilty).

Also regarding the comment about not being able to catch up with corrie, this could also be something she said to try and fit in. I personally never watch soaps but I have worked in many office jobs in the past where these are one of the main topics of conversation. Maybe she said it to be "one of the gang". (or maybe she did actually follow the show!)

All my own opinion.

 

[katydid23]

The prosecution say Letby attempted to kill Child H on September 26 at 3.24am, and on September 27 at 12.55am, she was the designated nurse *in room 2* for both of those night shifts

"Letby messages her colleague, for Child H, 'I've been helping Shelley [Tomlins, designated nurse for Child H that night] so least still involved but haven't got the responsibility'."

So although LL was not child H's designated nurse, she did 'help' the child's nurse, and was still 'involved'---which may have been bad luck for him at the time.

 

[notsure]

In alleged crimes like this, 'drawing attention to oneself' is often one of the motives for the crime.

I wonder if an alleged killer might almost want to be caught, when committing the crimes has lost its thrill and something new is needed - a different kind of drama.

 

[Tortoise]

I've found some more text info. It's LL messaging registrar Dr Alison Ventress on Facebook after baby H's second collapse.

I've sequenced some information regarding mention of this registrar in the events.

7 Sep 2015 - Baby G's first collapse on her 100th day, after projectile vomiting at 2.15am. LL is charged with attempting to murder baby G at this time. LL called Dr Ventress to review. Dr Ventress reviewed baby G and was called urgently into theatre to deliver another baby. An hour later baby G stopped breathing again and Dr Ventress was called out of theatre. She saw blood in baby G's throat as she was intubating her. 5.30am and 6.05am baby G collapsed again and Dr Ventress was called back. She changed the ventilator the first time and reintubated the second time, seeing more blood in the throat, and aspirating air from baby G's stomach. Baby G was transferred to Arrowe Park that morning.

That afternoon LL was texting JJones-Key:

LL: "Had rubbish nights. x"
JJ-K: "Yeah gathered. x"
LL: "Thought someone would have told you x. Nothing else to say really, just hope they are both ok"
JJ-K: "Don't know ins and outs as tried to avoid it, needed a break. Found Thursday horrendous, not really slept since then. Hope you're ok"
LL: "That is understandable, won't tell you anything."
The conversation turned to LL asking which of the team had informed JJ-K about the events of the night-shift for Sept 6-7. After a few guesses, the name 'Ali', in the messages, is said to be correct.
JJ-K: "Ali. She not having a good time x"
LL: "No, I know. It's been awful for her but she's coped with it brilliantly and got back-up when needed etc x"
JJ-K: "Yeah I don't know how she's done it. She was fab on Thursday."

[Thursday would have been Sep 3rd, LL was working a night shift. No relevant charges from that date.]

26 Sep 2015 - Dr Ventress responded to LL's crash call for baby H at 3.24am. LL is charged with attempting to murder baby H at this time. A test for a collapsed lung was carried out and air was removed. Dr Ventress noted "no trigger identified". The following nightshift, same date, at 9.30pm, 40 minutes after baby H crashed, LL (who wasn't the designated nurse or designated to be in the room with baby H) messaged Dr Ventress saying baby H had had a stable day, the original chest drain was removed at 8pm and "just blocked tube, lots of secretions!" Dr Ventress replied "Never known a baby block tubes so often!! Glad she's gad a stable day". Baby H crashed again on that nightshift at 3.30am (on 27th), and LL is charged with attempting to murder her for a second time. H was transferred to Arrowe Park at about 5am.

After the end of her shift, LL messaged Dr Ventress on Facebook:

LL: “[H] had resus again but not as bad as with us. Went to Arrowe.”
Dr.AV: “Oh crap. Do they know why she did it this time? I’m glad she’s been transferred! How are you? Really rough set of nights for you. Xx”
LL: “No did exactly what she did for us, desat then didn’t pick up & dropped heartrate. Looked fine again after though but made decision to transfer which I think was sensible! X”
DrAV: "Try to think of all the babies you’ve saved and have gone home happily with their parents. You’re a fab nurse. Hope you manage some sleep xx”
LL: “Thanks Ali Xx”

Hereford nurse murder trial: baby ‘improved dramatically’ after hospital move

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think Chester Standard is attending today. Hope I'm wrong though.

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

I'm back at Manchester Crown Court for the trial of nurse Lucy Letby. We'll be continuing to hear evidence in relation to Child H. The prosecution allege Ms Letby tried to murder the infant on two occasions in September 2015.

There'll be a slight delay to proceedings this morning as judges/lawyers are attending a eulogy at 10.30am for a former Manchester Crown barrister who recently died.

 

[mart321]

Quick question in regard to baby f and the insulin. Was it ever confirmed that the TPN had was changed over?

I was under the impression there was no evidence that it was definitely changed but came across a daily mail article where it states :

"Miss Tomlins told the court she recalled a new TPN bag being being set up for baby F after a longline tube needed to be replaced after it had "tissued"

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Prosecutor Nick Johnson is reading a statement (which is agreed evidence) from Countess of Chester Hospital midwife Deborah Moore. She took Child H's mother to theatre for her emergency C-section

Ms Moore says from reviewing her notes it was an 'uneventful birth and the mother did not require any additional treatment'

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

Mr Johnson, prosecuting, is continuing to read statements of agreed evidence from medics working on the evening of Child H's first collapse

 

[katydid23]

Our friend Dan does not always tweet all of the details, like the Standard does.

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

A member of nursing staff, who can't be named for legal reasons, recalls apologising to the parents of Child H for not informing theme sooner of their daughter's condition.


Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

Child H's mother said yesterday, in a statement, that she and the child's father were "quite annoyed" they had not been informed their daughter's first collapse and said it was a "shock" to see their daughter on a ventilator


Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

The nurse's statement, read to court, said: "We always try to inform the parents as soon as possible, but not if this is going to comprise health of the baby, if we felt the baby was going to die, parents would be informed right away – never felt the case with (Child H)'

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

 

[Tortoise]

this reporting Is so patchy. I don’t see any reason to think the journalist would feel the need to include that detail if only applicable to the current situation, it’s not really relevant to evidence presented in court either If she became a former colleague after the events in question. I would sooner think they are all her former colleagues. Granted without knowing anything else about that conversation we can’t say for sure but just by that article we can’t say she informed this former colleague of what happened to child H. I would think from a journalists perspective it would be better to include the details of the conversation rather than whether or not this individual is a current or former colleague If any of them are current colleagues which I doubt very much.

resolved this for you -

Dan O'Donoghue's Tweets yesterday -

Court being shown more messages between Ms Letby and a nursing colleague, who can't be named for legal reasons, sent after Child H's second collapse on September 27

Ms Letby's then colleague commented that 'there’s something odd with (Child H)' Ms Letby responded: 'Hopefully she’ll sort herself out'

Ms Letby later said: 'It’s all just so rubbish lately... 'Everyone is pretty burnt out and unit been awful'


Same BBC reporter's article yesterday -

After Child H's second collapse on 27 September, Ms Letby exchanged messages with a former nursing colleague.
Ms Letby said: "It's all just so rubbish lately and always seems to happen at night when less people.
"Everyone is pretty burnt out and unit been awful."

Lucy Letby: Parents saw baby resuscitated twice, murder trial told

 

[Marantz4250b]

resolved this for you -

Dan O'Donoghue's Tweets yesterday -

Court being shown more messages between Ms Letby and a nursing colleague, who can't be named for legal reasons, sent after Child H's second collapse on September 27

Ms Letby's then colleague commented that 'there’s something odd with (Child H)' Ms Letby responded: 'Hopefully she’ll sort herself out'

Ms Letby later said: 'It’s all just so rubbish lately... 'Everyone is pretty burnt out and unit been awful'


Same BBC reporter's article yesterday -

After Child H's second collapse on 27 September, Ms Letby exchanged messages with a former nursing colleague.
Ms Letby said: "It's all just so rubbish lately and always seems to happen at night when less people.
"Everyone is pretty burnt out and unit been awful."

Lucy Letby: Parents saw baby resuscitated twice, murder trial told

It would be nice if the relevant journos had a set of agrees reporting standards to adhere to so people don't get confused as to people's statements and relationships to others involved. It seems bad form to quote events at the time and refer to someone as a "former colleague" when they were actually a colleague at the material time.

Technically, I guess everyone she worked with is a "former colleague" now. Then again, could it e argued that a reporter using those terms in respect of everyone could be publishing things that are potentially prejudicial? "Former colleage" could, I think, tend to paint the defendant in a negative light rather than a neutral one. It could give the impression that she has been dismissed or haf left for other reasons when neither of those are true at this point.

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
9m

Dr Alison Ventress is now in the witness box. She tells the court she will always remember Child H as she was the first baby she performed a pneumothorax aspiration on (needle in the chest to remove air)

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
6m

Dr Ventress is taking the court back over her notes from the morning September 24 2015. Child H had poor blood gas and had a profound desaturation down to 'the 50%s and needed bagging with neopuff'

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
5m

The baby girl slowly recovered and was placed on Bipap (a small machine that pushes air through a mask and into child's airway and lungs), the court is told

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
34s

Her notes from that morning state that Child H's breathing 'remained gasping pattern'. Dr Ventress says this is 'more serious than grunting' and agrees that it was 'indicative of a serious respiratory problem'

 

[Tortoise]

ADMIN NOTE:

Numerous posts have been removed.

There is no MSM or other source to support speculation about any specific mental health issue of the accused. This includes autism, which oddly seems to crop in so many discussions when there is nothing to warrant it.

Sub judice is not the topic of this discussion. It is applicable to all cases in the UK.

bringing this forward from the first page of the thread.

 

[Tortoise]

It would be nice if the relevant journos had a set of agrees reporting standards to adhere to so people don't get confused as to people's statements and relationships to others involved. It seems bad form to quote events at the time and refer to someone as a "former colleague" when they were actually a colleague at the material time.

Technically, I guess everyone she worked with is a "former colleague" now. Then again, could it e argued that a reporter using those terms in respect of everyone could be publishing things that are potentially prejudicial? "Former colleage" could, I think, tend to paint the defendant in a negative light rather than a neutral one. It could give the impression that she has been dismissed or haf left for other reasons when neither of those are true at this point.

I thought she had been dismissed.

Quote from opening of trial - I suppose it doesn't say after dismissal, I'm making an assumption.

She was "going through a grievance procedure" with the NHS at the time

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
6m

Notes from the early hours of 25 September show another desaturation. At 1:14am Dr Ventress was 'bleeped urgently' as Child H had 'poor chest movement and poor colour'. She was placed on neopuff

The medic noted that Child H's chest drain, which had been fitted as she had a collapsed lung, was 'no longer functioning….blood stained fluid leaking from drain'

Dr Ventress says that is 'not uncommon' with chest drains. She says fluid was not indicative of any infection

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
8m

Her notes show that at 1.25am Child H had another profound desaturation. Oxygen levels down to 30s. Dr Ventress performed an emergency pneumothorax aspiration, 70ml of air was aspirated which was 'quite a lot for a baby that size' she tells the court

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
5m

Child H's sats improved after the procedure, but there was a further desaturation at 1.45am. Second aspiration was then needed and another butterfly needle inserted into lower chest, this again worked and drained a further 60mls of air - again sats improved

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
7s

The baby girl's sats remained in the stable range until 3am when she had another profound desaturation, her blood oxygen fell to 26%. 85mls of air aspirated and her sats again improved. A plan was drawn up to insert a further chest drain

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
59s

We're now looking at Dr Ventress' notes from her next shift on 25 September (going into 26 September). She records at 23.50 that there had been 'several episodes of desaturation in the previous two hours'