UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Tortoise]

I see she also noted that on 25th September, the 70ml of air she aspirated via needle aspiration in the chest after the desat at 1.25am was "quite a lot for a baby that size". And she then went on to aspirate another 60ml after the desat at 1.45 and then another 85ml after the desat at 3am. Are they suggesting LL was injecting the air into Baby H?


"Her notes show that at 1.25am Child H had another profound desaturation. Oxygen levels down to 30s. Dr Ventress performed an emergency pneumothorax aspiration, 70ml of air was aspirated which was 'quite a lot for a baby that size' she tells the court

Child H's sats improved after the procedure, but there was a further desaturation at 1.45am. Second aspiration was then needed and another butterfly needle inserted into lower chest, this again worked and drained a further 60mls of air - again sats improved

The baby girl's sats remained in the stable range until 3am when she had another profound desaturation, her blood oxygen fell to 26%. 85mls of air aspirated and her sats again improved. A plan was drawn up to insert a further chest drain"
·

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

I think this is air in the chest, different from air in the stomach. She's not accused of harming H on those dates.

 

[ColourPurple]

I think this is air in the chest, different from air in the stomach. She's not accused of harming H on those dates.

Is it just me or are they not being as clear as they normally are when reporting on Baby H. Might just be me , after having a break following the updates since December tbf.

 

[Sundial]

Sorry but that BBC reporter uses the expression 'former colleague' all the time to refer to nurses who were LL's colleagues at the time of the messages.



I'll quote you an example -

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
Jury now being shown text messages sent between Ms Letby and colleagues on the morning after Child E's death. Ms Letby to a former colleague, who cannot be named for legal reasons, says she felt 'numb'

When her former colleague says 'you seem to be having some very bad luck' Ms Letby replies: 'Not a lot I can do really he had a massive haemorrhage, could have happened to any baby x'



Chester Standard report -
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 22

During the handover period at 7.30-8pm, a message from Letby's colleague Jennifer Jones-Key is sent to Letby's phone, saying: "Hey how's you? x"
Letby responds at 8.01pm: "Not so good. We lost [Child E] overnight. x"
[8.02pm] Ms Jones-Key: "That's sad. We're on a terrible run at moment. Were you in 1? X"
[8.02pm] Letby: "Yes. I had him & [another child]
Jones-Key: "That's not good. You need a break from it being on your shift."
Letby replied it was the "luck of the drawer [sic]".
Jones-Key: "You seem to be having some very bad luck though"
Letby: "Not a lot I can do really. He had massive haemorrhage which could have happened to any baby x"
Jones-Key: "...Oh yeah I know that and it can happen to any baby. Very scary and I have seen one"
Jones-Key: "Hope your [sic] be ok. Chin up"
Letby: "I'm ok. Went to [colleague] for a chat earlier on [and with] nice people tonight."

I see this as colleagues who are no longer working at the unit but the discussions from this time are valid to the case

I've found some more text info. It's LL messaging registrar Dr Alison Ventress on Facebook after baby H's second collapse.

I've sequenced some information regarding mention of this registrar in the events.

7 Sep 2015 - Baby G's first collapse on her 100th day, after projectile vomiting at 2.15am. LL is charged with attempting to murder baby G at this time. LL called Dr Ventress to review. Dr Ventress reviewed baby G and was called urgently into theatre to deliver another baby. An hour later baby G stopped breathing again and Dr Ventress was called out of theatre. She saw blood in baby G's throat as she was intubating her. 5.30am and 6.05am baby G collapsed again and Dr Ventress was called back. She changed the ventilator the first time and reintubated the second time, seeing more blood in the throat, and aspirating air from baby G's stomach. Baby G was transferred to Arrowe Park that morning.

That afternoon LL was texting JJones-Key:

LL: "Had rubbish nights. x"
JJ-K: "Yeah gathered. x"
LL: "Thought someone would have told you x. Nothing else to say really, just hope they are both ok"
JJ-K: "Don't know ins and outs as tried to avoid it, needed a break. Found Thursday horrendous, not really slept since then. Hope you're ok"
LL: "That is understandable, won't tell you anything."
The conversation turned to LL asking which of the team had informed JJ-K about the events of the night-shift for Sept 6-7. After a few guesses, the name 'Ali', in the messages, is said to be correct.
JJ-K: "Ali. She not having a good time x"
LL: "No, I know. It's been awful for her but she's coped with it brilliantly and got back-up when needed etc x"
JJ-K: "Yeah I don't know how she's done it. She was fab on Thursday."

[Thursday would have been Sep 3rd, LL was working a night shift. No relevant charges from that date.]

26 Sep 2015 - Dr Ventress responded to LL's crash call for baby H at 3.24am. LL is charged with attempting to murder baby H at this time. A test for a collapsed lung was carried out and air was removed. Dr Ventress noted "no trigger identified". The following nightshift, same date, at 9.30pm, 40 minutes after baby H crashed, LL (who wasn't the designated nurse or designated to be in the room with baby H) messaged Dr Ventress saying baby H had had a stable day, the original chest drain was removed at 8pm and "just blocked tube, lots of secretions!" Dr Ventress replied "Never known a baby block tubes so often!! Glad she's gad a stable day". Baby H crashed again on that nightshift at 3.30am (on 27th), and LL is charged with attempting to murder her for a second time. H was transferred to Arrowe Park at about 5am.

After the end of her shift, LL messaged Dr Ventress on Facebook:

LL: “[H] had resus again but not as bad as with us. Went to Arrowe.”
Dr.AV: “Oh crap. Do they know why she did it this time? I’m glad she’s been transferred! How are you? Really rough set of nights for you. Xx”
LL: “No did exactly what she did for us, desat then didn’t pick up & dropped heartrate. Looked fine again after though but made decision to transfer which I think was sensible! X”
DrAV: "Try to think of all the babies you’ve saved and have gone home happily with their parents. You’re a fab nurse. Hope you manage some sleep xx”
LL: “Thanks Ali Xx”

Hereford nurse murder trial: baby ‘improved dramatically’ after hospital move

So to clarify, “Ali” she is messaging and talking about to another colleague is Dr A Ventress..
I’m finding following with baby Hs case somewhat “tangled” for want of a better word, but there does appear to be some odd things happening here between baby G and baby H which appear quite focused on Dr V (Ali) and LL.

 

[Tortoise]

Is it just me or are they not being as clear as they normally are when reporting on Baby H. Might just be me , after having a break following the updates since December tbf.

There are always big pieces of the puzzle missing on days when we have no chester standard updates. Sometimes we can fill them in when the experts testify.

 

[Sundial]

Is it just me or are they not being as clear as they normally are when reporting on Baby H. Might just be me , after having a break following the updates since December tbf.

I agree, I’m having trouble following with this one.

 

[Tortoise]

I see this as colleagues who are no longer working at the unit but the discussions from this time are valid to the case

So to clarify, “Ali” she is messaging and talking about to another colleague is Dr A Ventress..
I’m finding following with baby Hs case somewhat “tangled” for want of a better word, but there does appear to be some odd things happening here between baby G and baby H which appear quite focused on Dr V (Ali) and LL.

Yes the Ali is Dr Ventress.

I don't know why but it surprises me that they would call her by her first name, and not say doctor. I think LL had a friendship with this doctor more than any others, judging by the kisses in the texts. It could be the same doctor she texted just before she was removed from nursing, when she asked if she needed to be worried.

 

[THEFBI18]

IMO I think for the majority of charges we've heard so far the prosecution have put forward a strong case, when suboptimal care has been suggested by the defence.


But with all that aside, I'll be interested to see how the defence are going to explain why when LL moved from night shifts to day shifts, the deaths and collapses moved from the night shift to the day shift, and why they stopped completely when LL was moved to a clerical role.

IMO

Yes, I am a nurse and that speaks volumes to me. Too much to be coincidence imo also.

 

[ColourPurple]

I see this as colleagues who are no longer working at the unit but the discussions from this time are valid to the case

So to clarify, “Ali” she is messaging and talking about to another colleague is Dr A Ventress..
I’m finding following with baby Hs case somewhat “tangled” for want of a better word, but there does appear to be some odd things happening here between baby G and baby H which appear quite focused on Dr V (Ali) and LL.

Glad it's not just me! We seem to be missing so much info on Baby H's case.
Like what nights was LL actually working. We know she was there on 26th and 27th because of the charges, but after the first collapse on 26th the deputy unit mananger thanked her for "all your hard work these last few nights'" so was LL on shift on the 25th too? The 24th?

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes the Ali is Dr Ventress.

I don't know why but it surprises me that they would call her by her first name, and not say doctor. I think LL had a friendship with this doctor more than any others, judging by the kisses in the texts. It could be the same doctor she texted just before she was removed from nursing, when she asked if she needed to be worried.

Interesting. I know there was speculation before from some that LL may have been trying to impress or get attention from a male doctor. Don't think female doctors were considered.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I entirely agree! Just my opinion and feeling on this but she comes over as a person who is a very long way from being any sort of manipulator. That's the exact feeling I got right from the start when the media published her pics and statements from people who knew her. The texts and suchlike support that, in my my opinion.

Now, that's not say say that she isn't trying to manipulate but if she is she's not very good at it.

All of that makes it so unbelievable if she actually is guilty of all this. I mean, how on earth does someone get away with offences of such gravity for so long if they're a pretty crap liar?

Obviously, all my own opinion.

I agree. There are plenty of examples of her not actually being very good at deceit. It takes allot of foresight and sharpness of mind to be able to spontaneously and verbally respond to a perceived threat and judging by the language I’m not seeing it at all. If anything I’m seeing a lack of tact which again is essential in manipulation.i will give a few examples.

her response to the mother “trust me I’m a nurse“ is actually far too blunt and lacking in emotional awareness to be an example of manipulation only applicable if she is guilty. If she had been trying to skilfully manipulate she would have established an emotional connection and trust by saying something like “I am here to care for your baby” or “it is my responsibility to ensure the health of your baby”. Both of which are in line with emotional reciprocity of the situation and context And warm language. It’s also more in line with someone who is professional and focused on the more important thing which is the baby.

in that same case we also have what could be argued to be a more solid example of falsified notes made by LL however it’s still a bone of contention in my mind that it is assumed LL would know it was her word against the mothers Rather than the mom and staffs witness accounts Which would leave no doubt on the accuracy of the mothers testimony Thus removing any good reason LL would have to think it would be a successful lie.

the testimony regarding LL asking the parents if they wanted her to put the baby in the ventilated crib is also an example of a lack of emotional tact but not necessarily of a emotionally Cold individual. It’s so lacking in tact it displays what could be emotional distance and or someone feeling the emotion of the situation and being/feeling too awkward to think of a emotionally reciprocal approach To the request. That’s a very tense situation to be in but apparently she did display an appropriate response to the mothers sharp retort by backtracking.

I would argue that she displays a lack of emotional tact needed to be a good manipulator which is kind of normal for someone reputed to be socially awkward.

“Ms Letby, who has been described as awkward but kind-hearted, began working at Chester Hospital after graduating from Chester University in 2011.”

Pictured: Nurse suspected of murdering eight babies

Lucy Letby, 28, was arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies and attempting to kill another six on Tuesday. Liverpool Women's Hospital said it was also working with police.

www.dailymail.co.uk

also the example of her repeatedly going into the room of the grieving parents is another example of a lack of emotional awareness and awareness that it might be perceived as unusual by other people. Not exactly what you could expect from someone who knows they have done something wrong and is actively trying to give off the impression of someone who hasn’t done anything wrong In other words deceiving people. Also the fact she mentioned the tpn bag to the police in interview is another example of someone failing to understand the implications of their behaviour and words which is vital in manipulation.

all my own opinion.

 

[Tortoise]

LL's shifts from testimony we've heard so far

21 Sep 2015, Mon - day shift - 2 x attempted murder charges baby G

23/24 Sep, Wed/Thu - night shift
24/25 Sep, Thu/Fri - night shift - designated baby H
25/26 Sep, Fri/Sat - night shift - designated baby H - 1st attempted murder chg baby H
26/27 Sep, Sat/Sun - night shift - not designated baby H - 2nd attempted murder chg baby H

 

[Sundial]

Yes the Ali is Dr Ventress.

I don't know why but it surprises me that they would call her by her first name, and not say doctor. I think LL had a friendship with this doctor more than any others, judging by the kisses in the texts. It could be the same doctor she texted just before she was removed from nursing, when she asked if she needed to be worried.

I think that’s what I’m struck by too; I didn’t realise it was the same person. When she stated “Ali” previously I assumed she was a nursing colleague. With all this in mind, it demonstrates in evidence (and from the conversations with another colleague), Dr V (Ali) was having a “tough time recently”. Perhaps it is also the same doctor (“LL messaged an off-duty doctor/colleague ?) here in one of the other cases, baby F and the blood sugars? Seems quite relevant imo, was LL trying to impress her?

Interestingly someone asked earlier about diagnosis etc that nurses wouldn’t normally do (which is correct), it’s not typically what the role of a nurse entails really. But if she’s messaging and appears quite close to this doctor, is this where she’s getting some of the medical knowledge from?

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Another former nursing colleague of Ms Letby, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is now in the witness box. She is taking the court through her notes on Child H from 23/24/25 September 2015

Asked for her recollections of the events of 26 September, the nurse said she remembers Child H 'became unwell that night and needed some resuscitation'

The nurse is asked about 'a difference of opinion' that occurred that night over whether a baptism should be offered for Child H after her collapse. The baptism was offered to the parents, which was accepted

The nurse and a senior manager disagreed over whether it was the appropriate time for it to be offered

This disagreement arose mainly due to the fact it was early hours of the morning and the unit was busy. The nurse said it shouldn't be 'blown out of proportion'

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

 

[ColourPurple]

LL's shifts from testimony we've heard so far

21 Sep 2015, Mon - day shift - 2 x attempted murder charges baby G

23/24 Sep, Wed/Thu - night shift
24/25 Sep, Thu/Fri - night shift - designated baby H
25/26 Sep, Fri/Sat - night shift - designated baby H - 1st attempted murder chg baby H
26/27 Sep, Sat/Sun - night shift - not designated baby H - 2nd attempted murder chg baby H

Ah Ok, so she was Baby H's designated nurse on 25th Sep when the air was being aspirated but there are no charges relating to that date. I guess that date could be one of the examples that Dr Evans was given by the NCA where he determined there were other possible medical causes at play.

I agree. There are plenty of examples of her not actually being very good at deceit. It takes allot of foresight and sharpness of mind to be able to spontaneously and verbally respond to a perceived threat and judging by the language I’m not seeing it at all. If anything I’m seeing a lack of tact which again is essential in manipulation.i will give a few examples.

her response to the mother “trust me I’m a nurse“ is actually far too blunt and lacking in emotional awareness to be an example of manipulation only applicable if she is guilty. If she had been trying to skilfully manipulate she would have established an emotional connection and trust by saying something like “I am here to care for your baby” or “it is my responsibility to ensure the health of your baby”. Both of which are in line with emotional reciprocity of the situation and context And warm language. It’s also more in line with someone who is professional and focused on the more important thing which is the baby.

I brought up the "trust me I'm a nurse" quote and also said whether LL's texts and actions were manipulative depended on whether she was guilty or not. If shes innocent then of course saying "Trust me I'm a nurse" isn't in itself manipulative.

However, if she's guilty, had just injured Baby E to the point he was bleeding from the mouth and is accused of later murdering him, then in that case, reassuring his worried mother that was there nothing to be concerned about and telling her to leave the ward whilst saying "trust me I'm nurse " in order to get her to do what she wanted IS manipulative!

 

[Sundial]

Baby C was also one of the cases where a colleague also said; “something odd about that night”
We see this again in evidence with baby H where a colleague states the same thing “something odd”

(Trying to find a link but it’s not the first time people are saying it’s odd, people are discussing odd things -even with LL herself and the manager was aware of it). Yet she seems to be quite unaware imo

 

[ColourPurple]

I think that’s what I’m struck by too; I didn’t realise it was the same person. When she stated “Ali” previously I assumed she was a nursing colleague. With all this in mind, it demonstrates in evidence (and from the conversations with another colleague), Dr V (Ali) was having a “tough time recently”. Perhaps it is also the same doctor (“LL messaged an off-duty doctor/colleague ?) here in one of the other cases, baby F and the blood sugars? Seems quite relevant imo, was LL trying to impress her?

Interestingly someone asked earlier about diagnosis etc that nurses wouldn’t normally do (which is correct), it’s not typically what the role of a nurse entails really. But if she’s messaging and appears quite close to this doctor, is this where she’s getting some of the medical knowledge from?

JMO

Ali/Alison is quite a common name though so I guess it's possible there could be two?

 

[ColourPurple]

Just noting this for when we get to Baby I. It's from Baby G's father:

"The father said he asked doctors if there was a virus on the ward because another baby girl – known as Child I – in the same room had fallen ill in the same period. Child I is one of seven babies allegedly murdered by Letby between June 2015 and June 2016. Child G’s father told officers: “The consultant assured me there wasn’t a virus and nothing was wrong with the ward.”

Lucy Letby tried to murder baby after making celebration banner, court told

Nurse allegedly injected milk and air into girl at hospital in Chester after helping mark her 100th day of life

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sundial]

A little more from the Chester standard regarding those text messages;

Letby messages her colleague: "Im still frustrated/upset with what's gone on but don't think such rubbish nights & being tired help"

(This appears from the reporting to relate to the decision/disagreement about the baptism)

Her colleague responds: "Good reply as it's important they know about the bitchiness which is all it is. Yes re tired..."

The colleague added: "Anyway. You're a star. You e done yourself proud. You've given positive memories to the family whatever the outcome. Let's hope they can tease her in a few yrs about her 'attention seeking' ways. Sleep well. Xx

"Always a pleasure to work with you even if we're a '[s***] magnet' team".

Child H, the court heard, suffered two further episodes of profound desaturation at 12.55am and 3.30am on Sunday, September 27.

Letby messaged Alison Ventress and another colleague just after 11am that day to say Child H "had resus again", but it was not as bad/long-lasting, and she was transferred to Arrowe Park.

Ms Ventress replied: "Oh crap. Do they know why she did it this time? I'm glad she's been transferred! How are you? Really rough set of nights for you. "

Letby replied: "No did exactly what she did for us , desat then didn't pick up & dropped heartrate. Looked fine again after though but made decision to transfer which I think was sensible! X"

Letby messaged her other colleague to add: "None of us had breaks what with [Child H], transfer and then this...

"It's all just so rubbish lately isn't it. And always seems to happen at night when.less people

Lucy Letby: Nurse 'commended' for work during 'stressful situation'

TEXT messages recovered from Lucy Letby's phone show the baby murder-accused nurse was commended for her "hard work" during a busy time at…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

Discussion follows further with the same colleague regarding baby H;

I think everyone is pretty burnt out and unit Been awful. Yvonne working way more than she should."

Letby and her colleague than discuss about looking "at a change of unit".

Letby messaged her colleague: "I still think about the women's. if only it were closer, would make decision much easier"

Alison Ventress messaged Letby at 1.11pm on Sunday: "Try to think of all the babies you've saved and have gone home happily with their parents. You're a fab nurse. Hope you manage some sleep "

Lucy Letby: Nurse 'commended' for work during 'stressful situation'

TEXT messages recovered from Lucy Letby's phone show the baby murder-accused nurse was commended for her "hard work" during a busy time at…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

Just noting this for when we get to Baby I. It's from Baby G's father:

"The father said he asked doctors if there was a virus on the ward because another baby girl – known as Child I – in the same room had fallen ill in the same period. Child I is one of seven babies allegedly murdered by Letby between June 2015 and June 2016. Child G’s father told officers: “The consultant assured me there wasn’t a virus and nothing was wrong with the ward.”

Lucy Letby tried to murder baby after making celebration banner, court told

Nurse allegedly injected milk and air into girl at hospital in Chester after helping mark her 100th day of life

www.theguardian.com

I recall seeing this too. Isn’t it strange how even the parents noticed and questioned if there was something amiss aswell.