- Joined
- Oct 24, 2022
- Messages
- 2,976
- Reaction score
- 9,368
In output rather than composition. Her composition is that of a bag of dog poo that someone has left hanging in the sun on a tree.A bit of a madam? Understatement of the year!
GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33
- Thread starter sleuth777
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2022
- Messages
- 2,976
- Reaction score
- 9,368
Surprised we haven’t had word from @magikarpmagikarp since the verdict, anything from herself?
Agree.Commentary from one of the Drs who seems to write for Mail regularly ( Dr Max Pemberton)
'Medical colleagues in other countries are baffled by the power that NHS managers have.
They simply cannot believe that someone less qualified is able to override clinical decisions made by consultants or threaten, bully or intimidate them. In their jobs, such a thing is simply unheard of.'
Article is quite interesting. These themes of managers vs Drs and also nurses vs Drs you see can running through many of the other Inquiry reports into other Trusts.
OTOH this point about retaliation as a silencing tool, could probably be seen across many institutions, orgs and services :
'.....The patient could easily have died if he’d given in to the demands of the manager, yet — shockingly — he was still formally reprimanded for disobeying the manager despite him being absolutely correct in his clinical assessment.
I’ve had personal experience of this sort of treatment when, after my emails to managers went unanswered, I formally escalated concerns about the level of care being provided to patients in a service.
All of a sudden, the furious service manager descended and, rather than addressing the issues I’d raised, started to scrutinise my work — the implication being that I was a troublemaker and needed to be silenced.'
No wonder that some nurses and Drs feel there's no incentive to raise concerns when they have suspicions ( not suspicions of criminal wrongdoing )
Dr MAX PEMBERTON'S lesson from Letby
Dr MAX PEMBERTON: One of the many shocking things to come out of the case of nurse Lucy Letby is how it's exposed the extent to which managers have taken over so much of the NHS.www.dailymail.co.uk
I was shocked - to put it mildly - by power of these managers.
Also their unaccountability (holy cows?) and carousel of positions among Trusts.
Doctors were treated as nuisance.
As if the management forgot that thanks to patients and medical staff they earn their money.
A little bit of humility and respect towards others would be welcome.
But then,
doesn't arrogance almost always precede the fall?
JMO
Last edited:
She is controlled though, in the face of others. When she was arrested (and in court) there was no meltdown, no crying out in protest of her innocence and very few dramatics. The most we heard about was tears and asking for a break or trying to leave the dock. We know the extent of her manipulation tactics and gaslighting. She learnt to hide her true self and how to manipulate and deceive very young, IMO.
CEOs of hospital Trusts, which is what we are discussing, are accountable to their Trust Board as would be a CEO of a private company. The added dimension is that in turn there is accountabliity to the Dept of Health which is subject to political interference. They are not accountable to individual consultants.
If the Trust Board backs the CEO, then people lower down the system, ie those who deliver services are relatively powerless to influence standards of service. Managers who do not perform are replaced by others who will.
That's the way the system works. It may not be the best system, but its what has evolved since the early days of a Hospital Management Committee.
If the Trust Board backs the CEO, then people lower down the system, ie those who deliver services are relatively powerless to influence standards of service. Managers who do not perform are replaced by others who will.
That's the way the system works. It may not be the best system, but its what has evolved since the early days of a Hospital Management Committee.
I see.
Well, it explains a lot.
It is never good if politics is mixed into health matters.
After all, it is taxpayers' money and taxpayers are patients.
Thanks
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,431
- Reaction score
- 35,710
“My admiration and respect for the families knows no bounds. They are still needed to participate in the inquiry and that is a very difficult thing to do.
“If we do not make this a defining moment in history of the health service, we will not be doing justice to those that died.
“My powers as ombudsman are outdated, they leave me out of line with my European counterparts.” cc @Dotta
That's the Health Ombudsman, who I expect knows a thing or two.
He also focusses on clinicians whistle blowing re patient safety & not mincing his words, despite his role, accuses the management of a 'cover-up'
“This is an issue we have seen time and again from reports in independent inquiries across the country. When people try to disclose, they are blocked and discouraged.
“If we do not make this a defining moment in history of the health service, we will not be doing justice to those that died.
“My powers as ombudsman are outdated, they leave me out of line with my European counterparts.” cc @Dotta
That's the Health Ombudsman, who I expect knows a thing or two.
He also focusses on clinicians whistle blowing re patient safety & not mincing his words, despite his role, accuses the management of a 'cover-up'
“This is an issue we have seen time and again from reports in independent inquiries across the country. When people try to disclose, they are blocked and discouraged.
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,431
- Reaction score
- 35,710
Do you have any experience pre Thatcher's reforms when they became self governing trusts? Because that keeps coming up in all the editorials I've read in the last week. ( Not the Guardian, centre right papers)
[Blacon interview 1, 3rd July 2018 7.36pm on video]:
LL: They told me that there had been a lot more deaths and that I'd been linked as somebody that was there for a lot of them.
DS: Did you have any concerns that there was a rise in mortality rate?
LL: Yes.
DS: Ok, so tell me about that. What concerns did you have?
LL: Think we'd all just noticed as a, as a team in general, the nursing staff, that this was a rise compared to previous years.
This is such a short clip from her first arrest interview, but her last answer throws up so many red flags that it could be a lesson in itself in how to recognise manipulation. IMO
A non-manipulative answer (even if not directly addressing the question) would be 'I'd noticed a rise compared to previous years' - about a third of the words she used. All the additional words are manipulative fluff and attempts to divert police from herself.
But she's decided, within a second, to call on the wider support of the nursing team and used the words 'we'd all' to answer what her concerns were. This spreads accountability for having concerns.
Then (again without even having time to consider, so it's second nature for her) she's chucked in the word 'just' - we'd all just noticed - to minimise the act of noticing the rise in mortality. Compare it to 'I'd noticed' to see how that word 'just' is placed to manipulate and persuade.
'as a team in general, the nursing staff' - a lot of her short answer is spent introducing who the 'we' are, so she's considered that this is really important for police to know, that Lucy alone wasn't noticing this rise in mortality, she was supported in this and that removes any whiff of her showing unusual interest in mortality.
She avoided answering the question, about what concerned her about the rise. But it looks as if she's answered. It's sufficed to move her past that uncomfortable question so that they can ask another.
MOO
Last edited:
Tbh. I think while everyone finds what to do so obvious later... Our systems are just not set up for people like this. Neither are people really.
Like, even with suspicion, even with an increase in deaths... Running to the police with zero evidence and no management support to accuse a sweet normal competent young nurse of murdering babies is just a hell of a step.
I'd argue at that point a really reckless one. They went to managers repeatedly, but they didn't have anything to show them, other than a nurse known for picking up loads of shifts and was enthusiastic about helping the babies that needed the most care, was around at the time.
Like I'm not defending the inaction of the management, especially when more and more doctors voiced concerns, but this was just... Unthinkable. outlandish Especially when it was 'Nice Lucy' who didn't give any outward appearance that she was into baby serial killing.
Hindsight is 20/20. It was a busy hospital, incidents over multiple shifts. Very fragile patients with a certain amount of sudden declines to be expected. People point to the rash, but it would be much more reasonable to thing there could be something medical going wrong with care procedures than jumping to baby murdering nurse.
i am sure they will never forgive themselves, and I think everyone has their 20/20 glasses in.
Like, even with suspicion, even with an increase in deaths... Running to the police with zero evidence and no management support to accuse a sweet normal competent young nurse of murdering babies is just a hell of a step.
I'd argue at that point a really reckless one. They went to managers repeatedly, but they didn't have anything to show them, other than a nurse known for picking up loads of shifts and was enthusiastic about helping the babies that needed the most care, was around at the time.
Like I'm not defending the inaction of the management, especially when more and more doctors voiced concerns, but this was just... Unthinkable. outlandish Especially when it was 'Nice Lucy' who didn't give any outward appearance that she was into baby serial killing.
Hindsight is 20/20. It was a busy hospital, incidents over multiple shifts. Very fragile patients with a certain amount of sudden declines to be expected. People point to the rash, but it would be much more reasonable to thing there could be something medical going wrong with care procedures than jumping to baby murdering nurse.
i am sure they will never forgive themselves, and I think everyone has their 20/20 glasses in.
I’ve been very puzzled by that too.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2014
- Messages
- 4,586
- Reaction score
- 32,960
She is killing in her capacity as a nurse. There is a bit of a "thrill kill" on a unit. Sort of Munchausen's syndrome by proxy.
Genene Jones here in TX, was attracted to all the drama of the codes. Many times she was a hero, saving a baby, after she had injured it. Jones would inject heparin at the hospital. Later, Jones was employed at a clinic, where she had access the doctor's succinylcholine, which is a paralytic. (We don't know if she used succinylcholine or something similar while working at the hospital.) Succinycholine is used to intubate. It causes breathing to stop. Jones would then perform CPR and the baby would revive. When they admitted one of Jones' patients to a Kerrville hospital a surgeon (who happened to be working in the ER because it's small town) recognized the child's movements were the same as someone coming out of anesthesia. That's when they suspected that someone was injected the kids with succinycholine.
Jones was addicted to the thrill. I think Lucy was too.
Cats at home alone, aren't the same type of thrill kill.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2009
- Messages
- 2,951
- Reaction score
- 27,387
BBMExcellent commentary from one of the reporters, Liz Hull, responsible for the Podcast 'The trial of Lucy Letby' ( Mail) Also at the link is a paragraph where the reporter describes being berated by LL's parents but it's too much to quote all of the article
'In my mind, it all hinged on whether Letby would go into the witness box. If she was to have any chance of being cleared, she needed the jury to like her.
But in person, Letby was incapable of showing emotion or humanity. Her demeanour was glacial, her face blank and devoid of expression. When she started giving evidence in her defence, her delivery was so deliberate it bordered on robotic.
I admit, I was thrown by how 'normal' she looked; too ordinary to be a killer, surely.
But once she started speaking, there was no inflection in her voice, no evidence of distress, no imploring us to believe she wasn't a killer. As time went on, I just didn't believe her. If she was a caring nurse, surely she would have shown it?'
On a couple of occasions, I caught her sharing a joke with the prison officers who brought her to court each day, but as soon as she realised journalists, police officers, lawyers — and especially the jury — were filing in, the mask went back on......
Letby listened intently to the witnesses, often passing notes to the young female solicitor on her legal team, and had daily meetings with Mr Myers after court finished for the day, before being whisked back to her cell at HMP New Hall, in Wakefield, an hour down the M62.
Watching the mother of a boy murdered by Lucy Letby, I wept in court
LIZ HULL: I've been to almost every day of the trial, sitting just a few feet away from the woman accused of some of the worst crimes in modern times.
@Furore. Manipulating - see bolded? '
'Letby claimed she had developed post-traumatic stress from her arrest, and sat in the dock throughout her trial clutching two blankets — one pink and one lilac.
She also held on to a tiny 'stress' toy for comfort when she gave evidence and — not allowed the support of her legal team while mid-testimony — was granted regular visits with the court's resident mental health nurse, who helped her cope with days of probing, spiky questions from Mr Johnson.'
IMO Letby’s bedroom looks like that of a pre-teen not a mature educated woman. Add to that the clutching of blue and lilac blankets and a “stress” toy while in the dock has me thinking she didn’t have the idyllic childhood that’s been presented.
Was she trying to recreate her childhood? Or was she living the childhood she never had? It’s very odd.
This is imo the personality that fits her closest...I've always thought she attacked the babies when not getting her own way for various reasons
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,431
- Reaction score
- 35,710
Also this striking photo of her ( ' first photo since arrest, with Mum, wearing her signature pink and looking very young)
First time Lucy Letby seen since arrest on suspicion of killing eight babies
THIS is the first picture of nurse Lucy Letby after she was arrested on suspicion of killing eight babies at a hospital in Cheshire. The 28-year-old sneaked into Hereford Police Station wearing a h…
www.thescottishsun.co.uk
^ How do you know that?
Not saying she wasn't but as far as I'm aware, Tigger and Smudge did not come up in either the defence or prosecution arguments.
And I know they didn't appear as character witnesses.
Last edited:
Random thoughts. Just re-reading the Sympathy Card -
Letby says she wouldn't have written it on shift
"The card is written, it has been taken to work to hand over to a colleague who is going to the funeral."
NJ: "Why did you take a picture at the place where the child...died in dreadful circumstances?"
So LL had written the card at home, not sealed it in the envelope and then took it to work and photographed it in the place of death. Why wouldn't she have sealed the card at home? Why would she not have taken the photo at home once written? It was purposefully not sealed and purposefully taken where the death happened. Gave me a chill.
She also starts the Sympathy Card with "There are no words to make this time any easier" - There are no words also begins the infamous post-it note which I found curious too. Now knowing she is guilty it does make me wonder if this was just an empty phrase she often used to mimic empathy.
Letby says she wouldn't have written it on shift
"The card is written, it has been taken to work to hand over to a colleague who is going to the funeral."
NJ: "Why did you take a picture at the place where the child...died in dreadful circumstances?"
So LL had written the card at home, not sealed it in the envelope and then took it to work and photographed it in the place of death. Why wouldn't she have sealed the card at home? Why would she not have taken the photo at home once written? It was purposefully not sealed and purposefully taken where the death happened. Gave me a chill.
She also starts the Sympathy Card with "There are no words to make this time any easier" - There are no words also begins the infamous post-it note which I found curious too. Now knowing she is guilty it does make me wonder if this was just an empty phrase she often used to mimic empathy.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2022
- Messages
- 2,976
- Reaction score
- 9,368
Ohhhh if only cats could talk^ How do you know that?
Not saying she wasn't but as far as I'm aware, Tigger and Smudge did not come up in either the defence or prosecution arguments. And I know they didn't appear as character witnesses.
She made reference to her childhood being very different if they had moved down south in her messages to Dr A. I often thought this was significant at the time
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
Online statistics
- Members online
- 52
- Guests online
- 1,848
- Total visitors
- 1,900