UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

Yes, Dr. Breary is not using his knowledge in the right way. Erin Powell made the list, but wasn’t it per Dr. Breary’s request? So the suspicion that the kids were dying not because of subpar care but because of the murderer on the unit was his?

Are you able to provide a source for this - specifically that at the time Eirian Powell conducted an audit of staff present at collapses, it was because *Dr. Breary* was looking for a murderer, AND that this was THE reason for conducting an audit of staff present.
 
IMO I think the Sir Humphreys' have done a very good job in using Letby to avoid anyone looking any deeper.

Who knows how many female SK nurses there are in the NHS system?
 
IMO I think the Sir Humphreys' have done a very good job in using Letby to avoid anyone looking any deeper.

Who knows how many female SK nurses there are in the NHS system?
Indeed who knows, probably very few. There will be many more who cause harm unintentionally and whilst attempting to provide the best care possible, and many of those incidents can probably be attributed to being overworked and spread too thinly.
JMO- but this is where the case needs talking about- there are a whole heap of people who believe she is guilty and that everything was transparent in court and reporting was accurate and this evidenced her guilt.
There are a small group of people who believe she is absolutely innocent- I don’t believe they are conspiracy theorists as one member of the jury agreed with them on the majority of charges, so there is some basis for doubt no matter how small.
Then there are the people who are growing in number who sit in the middle and want everything to be looked at again.
This third point is important for the reason you mentioned, although I’m not sure how tongue in cheek it was, I personally don’t feel anything will improve or prevent this happening again. We have the inquiry and I don’t envy Lady Thirlwall- what recommendations will she suggest? I think it will be reinforcing what should have been done at the time- which is following protocol for suspicious or unexplained deaths, making sure notes are accurate and ensuring DATIX and SUDIc forms are completed and requesting post mortems. All things that at points could have, but weren’t done at COCH. CCTV is a bit of a wildcard as it’s unlikely to always be at the right angle, close enough, probably won’t have sound and can’t track around to provide enough evidence.
I do think addressing a massive pattern with little solid evidence has caused problems in this case- and it surprises me that people believe they would have acted in the same cautious manner and then turned it up a notch without much basis. The trigger to turn it up a gear and investigate doesn’t appear to have come from the doctors, but the senior managers, who go to the police and are told they need more evidence. It was only then the doctors talked to the police and made their case that triggered everything. It’s probably hindsight, but why would you not have zoned in and supervised, been more present and annotated notes more in the previous months to find evidence of your suspicion of guilt? This to me is the part I may never understand, but until it’s analysed the chances of this happening again are high.
 
Are you able to provide a source for this - specifically that at the time Eirian Powell conducted an audit of staff present at collapses, it was because *Dr. Breary* was looking for a murderer, AND that this was THE reason for conducting an audit of staff present.
Eirian Powell did do an assessment of suspicious incidents due to the raised mortality- but it only involved 3 babies (on the chart) between Feb and April 2016 and all highlighted Dr Gibbs as present, several nurses and LL was present for 2 out of the 3.


There was a wider review, where again 2 consultant doctors were identified as being present over 2015- 2016, but we have no breakdown of this for individual babies


It may seem from the outside that the nurses were finding fault with the doctors through their collation of information and vice versa for the doctors- neither should be viewed as strong evidence as they both seem entrenched in their own bias.
 
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Are you able to provide a source for this - specifically that at the time Eirian Powell conducted an audit of staff present at collapses, it was because *Dr. Breary* was looking for a murderer, AND that this was THE reason for conducting an audit of staff present.
This is the email chain where Eirian Powell highlights on 18 March 2016 that a nurse is present more than most, and a doctor is present on some and forwards the email to many people including Dr Brearey.
 
Are you able to provide a source for this - specifically that at the time Eirian Powell conducted an audit of staff present at collapses, it was because *Dr. Breary* was looking for a murderer, AND that this was THE reason for conducting an audit of staff present.
@magikarpmagikarp - I have just been back and re read the original post (after spending time trying to find you an answer), the question that you have bolded is asked of you, as it is you who disagrees and they would like your evidence and POV. You have cut the context out, but failed to respond and then asked the poster to reply to their own rebuttal. No wonder you have had no response.
 
There are a small group of people who believe she is absolutely innocent- I don’t believe they are conspiracy theorists as one member of the jury agreed with them on the majority of charges, so there is some basis for doubt no matter how small.

Source for this please, if you're implying it was the same juror each time? I didn't think there was any information released about how the jurors voted beyond the raw number if it wasn't unanimous.

MOO
 
Yes. Eirian Powell did conduct the review. She did forward it on to Dr. Breary. There is no evidence that Dr. Breary was asking for staffing charts because he or anyone else suspected a murderer. They were looking for commonalities. That is right there in the email you linked.

A good portion of that post is premised on the idea that Dr Breary "used statistics wrongly." The evidence asserted is that he commissioned Eirian Powell to conduct a staffing review in order to hunt for a murderer. But that is not why the review was conducted.
 
Source for this please, if you're implying it was the same juror each time? I didn't think there was any information released about how the jurors voted beyond the raw number if it wasn't unanimous.

MOO
Perhaps it wasn’t the same juror- the point is the one person had a doubt. Does it make a difference if it is the same person, or different people- one person had a small doubt. Asking for a source is ridiculously misinterpreting or not actually reading my post.
 
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Perhaps it wasn’t the same juror- the point is the one person had a doubt. Does it make a difference if it is the same person, or different people- one person had a small doubt. Asking for a source is ridiculously misinterpreting or not actually reading my post.
I read it, I felt your statement was ambiguous, that's why I asked for clarification.
 
I read it, I felt your statement was ambiguous, that's why I asked for clarification.
It’s an interesting point, not the point I was discussing, but maybe one worth discussing, although we will never know the answer. The jury was down one person and we don’t know what their opinion was- would the judge have accepted 10 jurors as quickly if there had still been 12 jury members? Will anyone other than the jury be aware who voted which way? If it was different jurors who were undecided on different charges, rather than the same juror- would that impact how certain or uncertain the jury were on the overall outcome? Here’s the timeline of deliberations
 
On 29th June 2016 ( 6 days after baby O died) Dr Saludi (consultant) has looked through all the shift data and the reports and doesn’t appear as convinced as the others that this is reliable information and believes it should be handed to the police to investigate everyone, accepting that doctors should also be looked at. He appears to also be very aware that if there were suspicions it should not have got to this point at all. JMO reading between the lines- this is an articulate doctor, but he is wondering why they are attempting to put shift data that is unreliable together as evidence and also why it has not been taken externally already to the police.

Dr Gibbs in the same email chain asks if Dr Brearey can confirm LL was on all shifts and what other unexpected deaths there had been that perhaps weren’t included- again JMO, but he also seems not wholly convinced.

Dr J responds, rather than Dr B and tells them it’s being referred to the police, not responding to their further questions and basically shutting their hesitation and questions down- which seems a little unprofessional when their opinions had been requested in the first place.

So why on earth, did it not get referred to the police until 2017.

JMO- the short version is Dr S. raises that they should go to the police in June 2016 and open themselves all up to being investigated, if there are concerns (he himself feels they aren’t that reliable and the police would investigate it better). Dr J tells them they are going to the police, but it’s almost a year later (28 April 2017) this happens ( through the executives, not the doctors) and in the meantime he also tells everyone to stop asking questions and discussing it.

When looking through these documents- it’s worth noting dates and times on individual emails, as they aren’t always chronological.


 
Similarities: 1) Sally Clark’s trial consultant Roy Meadow provided misleading statistical evidence. Just like in LL’s case the only “statistics” was this inadequate “who was on call” sheet which, sorry, just shows lack of understanding of any statistics by Dr. Breary.
Once again - people really, really need to stop using the word "statistics" in relation to that shift pattern chart.

It is NOT a collection of statistics and was never presented as statistical evidence, because it is not statistical evidence.

The only thing that it shows - it's whole and sole purpose - was to demonstrate who was on duty at certain particular times.

It was one piece of evidence that the jury was asked to consider in the whole scheme of all the other evidence.

At NO POINT did the prosecution suggest or try to imply that it was statistically more likely that she was guilty because of what the chart showed. It was simply a statement of fact to which the jury was entitled to attach whatever weight they chose to it.

This has been pointed out so many times now that anyone repeating this "statistical evidence" malarkey is simply being dishonest - imo, obvs!
 
Source for this please, if you're implying it was the same juror each time? I didn't think there was any information released about how the jurors voted beyond the raw number if it wasn't unanimous.

MOO
Yep, and there never will be as jury room deliberations are secret on pain of lots of possible prison time.

No one has any right to be making statements about stuff like that.
 
i doubt it would. ts very complex as well because the jury were instructed to allow each individual charge to influence the others.
Indeed!

This was a fantastically convoluted and intense case that went on for the best part of a year. It annoys me when people think they can poke holes in it (from either side) by quoting one or two randomly isolated facts and claim that they are in any way significant in undermining the case. It's especially annoying when people start quoting "facts" about jury deliberations which they absolutely, categorically, 100% cannot possibly know.
 
I have given up making comments on this case due to the negative response. I would just mention that a man who saved 38 years in jail for a crime was released recently.
 
Indeed!

This was a fantastically convoluted and intense case that went on for the best part of a year. It annoys me when people think they can poke holes in it (from either side) by quoting one or two randomly isolated facts and claim that they are in any way significant in undermining the case. It's especially annoying when people start quoting "facts" about jury deliberations which they absolutely, categorically, 100% cannot possibly know.

People are not poking holes in the case.
I am asking if the case is "beyond reasonable doubt"
And reading a recently published book about the mistakes the doctors made with each baby. ;)
 
Two VERY different cases.
I think the point of the previous posters comment has been missed, yes they are different in the fundamentals of the evidence- but it’s not rocket science to realise that he was highlighting the length of time it took and the difficulties that occurred even when the science caught up in getting it re looked at and progressed through the judicial system and that was the comparison he was alluding to.
 

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