UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

everyone on their best behaviour please, props to the mods.

This is a useful short piece of information on the submission Letby/her team made regarding the appeals process Lucy Letby application received by Criminal Cases Review Commission - Criminal Cases Review Commission
thats interesting actually. it doesn't look good that they do mention that certain "parties" have only a "partial" understanding of the evidence presented. This is certainly not a reference to any conspiracy theorists at all imo.
 
This is a useful short piece of information on the submission Letby/her team made regarding the appeals process Lucy Letby application received by Criminal Cases Review Commission - Criminal Cases Review Commission
That's an interesting statement. For me, this part is the real issue she has

The CCRC considers whether, as a result of new evidence or argument, there is a real possibility that the conviction would not be upheld were a reference to be made. New evidence or argument is argument or evidence which has not been raised during the trial or on appeal. 

That's a very high bar to cross, especially in LL's case, imo. As they say further up the statement;

Ms Letby’s convictions followed a long-running, complex police investigation lasting several years and subsequent trials totalling almost ten months;

And;

A significant volume of complicated evidence was presented to the court in Ms Letby’s trials.

All of the evidence and argument is intertwined and interrelated. This is not remotely similar to the recent case of the guy who's been released after nearly 40 years. In that case, a single piece of evidence (DNA) proved that he couldn't possibly have done it. There isn't anything in LL's cases that could be that definitive, I don't think. She was convicted on the overall weight of a lot of circumstantial evidence which was often very specialist and technical.

There isn't going to be any magic bullet that blows the case to pieces.
 
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That's an interesting statement. For me, this part is the real issue she has

The CCRC considers whether, as a result of new evidence or argument, there is a real possibility that the conviction would not be upheld were a reference to be made. New evidence or argument is argument or evidence which has not been raised during the trial or on appeal. 

That's a very high bar to cross, especially in LL's case, imo. As they say further up the statement;

Ms Letby’s convictions followed a long-running, complex police investigation lasting several years and subsequent trials totalling almost ten months;

And;

A significant volume of complicated evidence was presented to the court in Ms Letby’s trials.

All of the evidence and argument is intertwined and interrelated. This is not remotely similar to the recent case of the guy who's been released after nearly 40 years. In that case, a single piece of evidence (DNA) proved that he couldn't possibly have done it. There isn't anything in LL's cases that could be that definitive, I don't think. She was convicted on the overall weight of a lot of circumstantial evidence which was often very specialist and technical.

There isn't going to be any magic bullet that blows the case to pieces.


Scrolling down to the very bottom of this pdf, and it is very encouraging , imo. A very informative summary of the major issues with the proposed new 'appeals' from the new defense team.

ANNEX
The Executive’s Application

  1. In the closing phases of the Inquiry, those representing the Former Executives of the Trust applied for the Inquiry to be adjourned pending the outcome of an application to the CCRC by Letby’s new “Legal Team”2. The Families note also the recent correspondence from Sir David Davis MP, a supporter of Letby, urging the Chair to do the same.

  1. As things stand at the time of writing, Lucy Letby is a convicted multiple child murderer, the most prolific child murderer in Britain. She has twice brought appeals before the Court of Appeal and on both occasions was unsuccessful. When Sir David Davis urges the Chair, as he does in his letter dated 28 February 2025 to pause the Inquiry: “Until Ms Letby’s avenues of appeal have been fully exhausted” he ignores the fact that those avenues of appeal have already been exhausted. Her right to appeal in the future could only arise within closely defined circumstances, which have so far not been established. Upon the assumption that Letby has abandoned the prospect of making a further direct appeal to the Court of Appeal (see below), her only potential route to re-referral to the Court of Appeal is through the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) as established by the Criminal Appeals Act 1995.

637. The Families are concerned that the Panel appear to be describing issues that have already been ventilated at trial or which were considered as part of the first Appeal. At their highest, the panel put forward alternative explanations for why some, but not all, of the babies collapsed and/or died based upon a review of the medical records and some, but by no means all, the evidence called at trial. It is difficult to see how a panel of experts of a single discipline provided with limited evidence could reach a better conclusion than experts of multiple disciplines considering the evidence in the round. It is unclear to the Families why Mr McDonald (or his Instructing Solicitors if he has them) would instruct multiple experts of a single discipline to undertake a limited review of the evidence and present their findings as superior to the evidence adduced at trial.

638. The elephant in the room, which Letby’s legal team appear to be studiously ignoring is that Letby had experts available to her at trial, who had access to all of the same material available to the prosecution experts and who provided multiple reports. As the Court of Appeal observed at paragraph 5 of their judgement in the first appeal:

“The defence mounted a robust approach to the evidence that was called. Serious allegations were put to the numerous professional witnesses (including expert witnesses) who were called on behalf of the prosecution. Two points may be noted at the outset. First, though the defence instructed a number of expert witnesses of their own, and many reports were served from them before and during the trial, no evidence was called on the applicant’s behalf. The entirety of the evidence called for the defence consisted of the applicant’s own testimony, and that of an estate plumber, who had worked at the hospital since 1986. He gave evidence about certain plumbing problems that had occurred at various points in the unit: and of two particular incidents in the unit, but not on a date or around the time of any incident in the indictment. Secondly, to make a somewhat basic point, what was put to the prosecution witnesses in cross-examination, was not evidence, save to the extent it was accepted by the witness. More specifically, in the context of this appeal, suggestions made in cross-examination which were not accepted by prosecution witnesses and were not supported by evidence called on behalf of the applicant, are, as the respondent has submitted, irrelevant.”
 


Scrolling down to the very bottom of this pdf, and it is very encouraging , imo. A very informative summary of the major issues with the proposed new 'appeals' from the new defense team.

ANNEX
The Executive’s Application

  1. In the closing phases of the Inquiry, those representing the Former Executives of the Trust applied for the Inquiry to be adjourned pending the outcome of an application to the CCRC by Letby’s new “Legal Team”2. The Families note also the recent correspondence from Sir David Davis MP, a supporter of Letby, urging the Chair to do the same.

  1. As things stand at the time of writing, Lucy Letby is a convicted multiple child murderer, the most prolific child murderer in Britain. She has twice brought appeals before the Court of Appeal and on both occasions was unsuccessful. When Sir David Davis urges the Chair, as he does in his letter dated 28 February 2025 to pause the Inquiry: “Until Ms Letby’s avenues of appeal have been fully exhausted” he ignores the fact that those avenues of appeal have already been exhausted. Her right to appeal in the future could only arise within closely defined circumstances, which have so far not been established. Upon the assumption that Letby has abandoned the prospect of making a further direct appeal to the Court of Appeal (see below), her only potential route to re-referral to the Court of Appeal is through the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) as established by the Criminal Appeals Act 1995.

637. The Families are concerned that the Panel appear to be describing issues that have already been ventilated at trial or which were considered as part of the first Appeal. At their highest, the panel put forward alternative explanations for why some, but not all, of the babies collapsed and/or died based upon a review of the medical records and some, but by no means all, the evidence called at trial. It is difficult to see how a panel of experts of a single discipline provided with limited evidence could reach a better conclusion than experts of multiple disciplines considering the evidence in the round. It is unclear to the Families why Mr McDonald (or his Instructing Solicitors if he has them) would instruct multiple experts of a single discipline to undertake a limited review of the evidence and present their findings as superior to the evidence adduced at trial.

638. The elephant in the room, which Letby’s legal team appear to be studiously ignoring is that Letby had experts available to her at trial, who had access to all of the same material available to the prosecution experts and who provided multiple reports. As the Court of Appeal observed at paragraph 5 of their judgement in the first appeal:

“The defence mounted a robust approach to the evidence that was called. Serious allegations were put to the numerous professional witnesses (including expert witnesses) who were called on behalf of the prosecution. Two points may be noted at the outset. First, though the defence instructed a number of expert witnesses of their own, and many reports were served from them before and during the trial, no evidence was called on the applicant’s behalf. The entirety of the evidence called for the defence consisted of the applicant’s own testimony, and that of an estate plumber, who had worked at the hospital since 1986. He gave evidence about certain plumbing problems that had occurred at various points in the unit: and of two particular incidents in the unit, but not on a date or around the time of any incident in the indictment. Secondly, to make a somewhat basic point, what was put to the prosecution witnesses in cross-examination, was not evidence, save to the extent it was accepted by the witness. More specifically, in the context of this appeal, suggestions made in cross-examination which were not accepted by prosecution witnesses and were not supported by evidence called on behalf of the applicant, are, as the respondent has submitted, irrelevant.”
Thats interesting. it does cover points discussed here many times. think everyone said the conference didn't address other evidence and maybe i think this was an attempt to deplatform the layered and multistructured nature of the prosecution. if they take out the med evidence the other platforms fall, this was a haughty almost arrogant take on things as it diminishes the seriousness of the prosecutions experts. this is the exact reason why i have been paying no attention to it really and to see it stated by the organisation responsible for hearing any argument for appeal firms it up for me, i might take this as a "request denied".
 
Thats interesting. it does cover points discussed here many times. think everyone said the conference didn't address other evidence and maybe i think this was an attempt to deplatform the layered and multistructured nature of the prosecution. if they take out the med evidence the other platforms fall, this was a haughty almost arrogant take on things as it diminishes the seriousness of the prosecutions experts. this is the exact reason why i have been paying no attention to it really and to see it stated by the organisation responsible for hearing any argument for appeal firms it up for me, i might take this as a "request denied".
Forgive me if i am misunderstanding you, but it seems to me you are confusing the document referred to by katydid23, which is the closing submission at the Thirlwall Inquiry on behalf of the families, with the one previously cited by Furore, which is the statement by the CCRC.

It outlines the issues very powerfully, but this does not come from 'the organisation responsible for hearing any argument for appeal'.
 
Forgive me if i am misunderstanding you, but it seems to me you are confusing the document referred to by katydid23, which is the closing submission at the Thirlwall Inquiry on behalf of the families, with the one previously cited by Furore, which is the statement by the CCRC.

It outlines the issues very powerfully, but this does not come from 'the organisation responsible for hearing any argument for appeal'.
you are correct. That I am. my mistake, i blame katydid ;) jk jk i could certainly see that it would still stand with the CCRC though.
 


Scrolling down to the very bottom of this pdf, and it is very encouraging , imo. A very informative summary of the major issues with the proposed new 'appeals' from the new defense team.

ANNEX
The Executive’s Application

  1. In the closing phases of the Inquiry, those representing the Former Executives of the Trust applied for the Inquiry to be adjourned pending the outcome of an application to the CCRC by Letby’s new “Legal Team”2. The Families note also the recent correspondence from Sir David Davis MP, a supporter of Letby, urging the Chair to do the same.

  1. As things stand at the time of writing, Lucy Letby is a convicted multiple child murderer, the most prolific child murderer in Britain. She has twice brought appeals before the Court of Appeal and on both occasions was unsuccessful. When Sir David Davis urges the Chair, as he does in his letter dated 28 February 2025 to pause the Inquiry: “Until Ms Letby’s avenues of appeal have been fully exhausted” he ignores the fact that those avenues of appeal have already been exhausted. Her right to appeal in the future could only arise within closely defined circumstances, which have so far not been established. Upon the assumption that Letby has abandoned the prospect of making a further direct appeal to the Court of Appeal (see below), her only potential route to re-referral to the Court of Appeal is through the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) as established by the Criminal Appeals Act 1995.

637. The Families are concerned that the Panel appear to be describing issues that have already been ventilated at trial or which were considered as part of the first Appeal. At their highest, the panel put forward alternative explanations for why some, but not all, of the babies collapsed and/or died based upon a review of the medical records and some, but by no means all, the evidence called at trial. It is difficult to see how a panel of experts of a single discipline provided with limited evidence could reach a better conclusion than experts of multiple disciplines considering the evidence in the round. It is unclear to the Families why Mr McDonald (or his Instructing Solicitors if he has them) would instruct multiple experts of a single discipline to undertake a limited review of the evidence and present their findings as superior to the evidence adduced at trial.

638. The elephant in the room, which Letby’s legal team appear to be studiously ignoring is that Letby had experts available to her at trial, who had access to all of the same material available to the prosecution experts and who provided multiple reports. As the Court of Appeal observed at paragraph 5 of their judgement in the first appeal:

“The defence mounted a robust approach to the evidence that was called. Serious allegations were put to the numerous professional witnesses (including expert witnesses) who were called on behalf of the prosecution. Two points may be noted at the outset. First, though the defence instructed a number of expert witnesses of their own, and many reports were served from them before and during the trial, no evidence was called on the applicant’s behalf. The entirety of the evidence called for the defence consisted of the applicant’s own testimony, and that of an estate plumber, who had worked at the hospital since 1986. He gave evidence about certain plumbing problems that had occurred at various points in the unit: and of two particular incidents in the unit, but not on a date or around the time of any incident in the indictment. Secondly, to make a somewhat basic point, what was put to the prosecution witnesses in cross-examination, was not evidence, save to the extent it was accepted by the witness. More specifically, in the context of this appeal, suggestions made in cross-examination which were not accepted by prosecution witnesses and were not supported by evidence called on behalf of the applicant, are, as the respondent has submitted, irrelevant.”
Agreed. One of the most egregious examples for me, of where the “expert panel” have simply been lazy in their attempts to lay the blame on any alternate diagnosis is the example of a neonate whose Endotracheal tube was colonised with s maltophilia.

Not only was this tube no longer in the baby when she arrested (and had not been for some days), she had no features of pneumonia, chest infection, or positive microbiology for maltophilia within her lungs or blood stream.

This temporal lack of association and exemptive evidence - ignoring the context of the unexplained and sudden collapse without warning - is a perfect illustration of why wider conclusions should be taken with a pinch of salt.

So much of clinical accumen is about the patient - how they look/behave and what their collateral history - ie info from their nearest and dearest says -

We know there is a wider push in UK medicine to be less paternalistic and explore family concerns etc as they’re often pretty nuanced - maybe less so in neonatal medicine as the individual has not been “realised” or become known to their family yet in terms of what is normal, but I actually find it quite unprofessional and haughty to just dismiss lengthy trial evidence, other experts and the family concerns, via press conference, without even bothering with basic details surrounding at least some of the cases.

All JMOO of course!
 
However, a statement issued on the Thirlwall Inquiry website on Thursday said: “The inquiry has written to core participants with an update on the progress of the final report.

“The chair, Lady Justice Thirlwall, is expected to send out warning letters from September 2025 and the final report will be completed by the end of November. The report will then undergo copy editing and typesetting, ahead of publication in early 2026.”

So-called ‘warning letters’ are sent to those who may be subject to significant or explicit criticism in an inquiry report and allows them the chance to respond.
 
However, a statement issued on the Thirlwall Inquiry website on Thursday said: “The inquiry has written to core participants with an update on the progress of the final report.

“The chair, Lady Justice Thirlwall, is expected to send out warning letters from September 2025 and the final report will be completed by the end of November. The report will then undergo copy editing and typesetting, ahead of publication in early 2026.”

So-called ‘warning letters’ are sent to those who may be subject to significant or explicit criticism in an inquiry report and allows them the chance to respond.
That seems like such a long time to anticipate and worry about a warning letter- I wonder why they have included that caveat at this point, rather than just a general there has been a delay. It’s not going to prevent public speculation either way.
 
“The chair, Lady Justice Thirlwall, is expected to send out warning letters from September 2025 and the final report will be completed by the end of November. The report will then undergo copy editing and typesetting, ahead of publication in early 2026.”
I suspect the Royal Mail will make a small fortune out of the number of people who will need to be sent warning letters... 😆
 
DE LA POER: Now, as far as the Consultant body was concerned, you have mentioned Dr Jayaram who was the Clinical Lead for paediatrics which was the equivalent relevant, albeit in a different structure, to the one that you had held?
GIBBS: (Nods)

DE LA POER: Dr Stephen Brearey was the neonatal lead; is that right?
GIBBS: Yes.

DE LA POER: And that was an additional clinical role for him, not a management role?
GIBBS: That's correct.

DE LA POER: There were then three other consultants who were present throughout the entire period we will be looking at: Dr ZA, Dr V and Dr Saladi; is that right?
GIBBS: Yes.

DE LA POER: At the start of the period we will be looking at Dr Liz Newby was part of the Consultant body; is that right?
GIBBS: Yes, she was.

DE LA POER: And she left around March 2016, I believe?
GIBBS: Right, yes.

DE LA POER: And was she replaced by Dr Suzy Holt?
GIBBS: Yes, she was.

DE LA POER: Who was then part of the Consultant body up until past May 2017?

This is from Dr G’s testimony from Thirlwall page 8, these are the consultants over that period- he subsequently explains they needed to recruit 2 more consultants. Now I’m no statistician, but I count 8 consultants- originally it was a band of 4, then Dr B stated it was a band of 7- who suspected LL, did someone always disagree or is it just a case of Dr H joined so late to the group March 2016 she wasn’t included?

Shortly after this section, the head nursing staff are also named and then it is explained that they have weekly meetings on a Monday, and monthly ones with finance and this is where the suspicions were originally brought up- is this a fair description of how the suspicions were raised?

 
“DE LA POER: In your view, were there adequate nursing staff on the NNU during the period 2015/16?
GIBBS: There is two answers to that. Yes, I felt so and there was similar nursing staffing to that that we had in prevent years, it hadn't suddenly changed in 2015/16. But no in that it was below the BAPM guidelines. But it was my understanding at the time that many hospitals -- many -- failed to meet the BAPM standards for nurse staffing on the neonatal unit.

DE LA POER: So three points then, yes? Firstly, lower than the guidelines suggest?
GIBBS: Yes.

DE LA POER: Secondly, that that had been a longstanding problem?
GIBBS: Yes.

DE LA POER: Thirdly, in your understanding, that was comparable to many other hospitals?
GIBBS: Yes, and if I could just add a figure there that might come up later. When we had the College review -- I am not going to talk much about that yet -- in September 2016, the reviewers pointed out that the nursing staffing levels on our neonatal unit were 21% below the BAPM recommendation. But that compared to within the region all the other units, the average was 27% below the BAPM recommendations, which just hopefully confirms what I said: most other hospitals did not meet the guidelines and we are actually slightly better off staffing wise than other neonatal units in the Cheshire and Merseyside region.”

Again from Dr G’s statement- we can now see clearly that they were understaffed nursing wise, as were all the other units in the region- the use of percentages here, makes the figures look dramatic, but this was one of the smaller units and it will have had a bigger impact, Liverpool women’s hospital for example had many more neonatal nursing staff, so 27% under probably wasn’t as significant- but it also partially explains some of the reasoning behind difficulties transferring patients.

Is this comparable to other regions I wonder, specifically being under staffed across a whole region, not just some of the neonatal units, thus hindering transfers.
 
“DE LA POER: I will just remind you: "that Consultants thought all staff members worked cohesively because staff did exactly what they were told to do by the Consultants without challenging them". What can you tell us about your experience of that and your comment upon her view?
SALADI: No, I think it -- it was a cooperative unit and we could challenge each other easily and they did challenge us in -- where they thought it was appropriate. It was not antagonistic, we worked as a team. It was a cohesive team. And I am proud to be a team member of there.

DE LA POER: So far as how any change that may have taken place in 2016 is concerned, did you perceive any change with any of the relationships that I have just talked about between the Consultants, between Consultants and doctors, or between Consultants and nurses?
SALADI: Not in terms of the relations. Obviously the Consultants, us as a body, were under stress but I suspect that applies to all groups because we were understaffed and we were having busy periods and during that time there were more unwell children. But not in terms of the relations.”

Which ever angle you look at, this was not a cohesive unit- the consultants were stressed, the nurses didn’t have a voice Dr S’s statement to the Thirlwall Inquiry page 52

 
“DE LA POER: In your view, were there adequate nursing staff on the NNU during the period 2015/16?
GIBBS: There is two answers to that. Yes, I felt so and there was similar nursing staffing to that that we had in prevent years, it hadn't suddenly changed in 2015/16. But no in that it was below the BAPM guidelines. But it was my understanding at the time that many hospitals -- many -- failed to meet the BAPM standards for nurse staffing on the neonatal unit.

DE LA POER: So three points then, yes? Firstly, lower than the guidelines suggest?
GIBBS: Yes.

DE LA POER: Secondly, that that had been a longstanding problem?
GIBBS: Yes.

DE LA POER: Thirdly, in your understanding, that was comparable to many other hospitals?
GIBBS: Yes, and if I could just add a figure there that might come up later. When we had the College review -- I am not going to talk much about that yet -- in September 2016, the reviewers pointed out that the nursing staffing levels on our neonatal unit were 21% below the BAPM recommendation. But that compared to within the region all the other units, the average was 27% below the BAPM recommendations, which just hopefully confirms what I said: most other hospitals did not meet the guidelines and we are actually slightly better off staffing wise than other neonatal units in the Cheshire and Merseyside region.”

Again from Dr G’s statement- we can now see clearly that they were understaffed nursing wise, as were all the other units in the region- the use of percentages here, makes the figures look dramatic, but this was one of the smaller units and it will have had a bigger impact, Liverpool women’s hospital for example had many more neonatal nursing staff, so 27% under probably wasn’t as significant- but it also partially explains some of the reasoning behind difficulties transferring patients.

Is this comparable to other regions I wonder, specifically being under staffed across a whole region, not just some of the neonatal units, thus hindering transfers.
It was better staffed than comparable units. In any case, the shortfall refers to the permanent staff not how many nurses were on per shift. What you conveniently forget is that on the shifts in question the nurse staffing was adequate. Not that it matters given the nature of the incidents.
All NNUs have problems with nurse staffing.
 
Again from Dr G’s statement- we can now see clearly that they were understaffed nursing wise, as were all the other units in the region- the use of percentages here, makes the figures look dramatic, but this was one of the smaller units and it will have had a bigger impact, Liverpool women’s hospital for example had many more neonatal nursing staff, so 27% under probably wasn’t as significant- but it also partially explains some of the reasoning behind difficulties transferring patients.

Is this comparable to other regions I wonder, specifically being under staffed across a whole region, not just some of the neonatal units, thus hindering transfers.
What is the relevance, though? If we assume, for the sake of argument, that it was grossly understaffed then so what?

Coincidence is not causation so unless you can show that the understaffing directly caused the deaths and collapses it means nothing.

I cannot conceive of how any level of understaffing could cause insulin to be put into feed bags or lead to catastrophic physical injuries, tbh.
 
It was better staffed than comparable units. In any case, the shortfall refers to the permanent staff not how many nurses were on per shift. What you conveniently forget is that on the shifts in question the nurse staffing was adequate. Not that it matters given the nature of the incidents.
All NNUs have problems with nurse staffing.

Yes so the numbers were a shortfall in permanently employed staff.
It doesn't take into consideration people covering extra shifts or even agency nurse cover which take the daily numbers to a safer level
 

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