UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[marynnu]

Why am I getting notifications of posts being removed for "claiming a reporter is lying" when it is a matter of public record that the writer for the Guardian has published materially false claims disproven by court transcripts on the exact topic?

Do I need to sit down, provide links to the relevant transcripts and articles to establish that this journalist spreads misinformation? And why are moderators overstepping in their moderation to tip the scales when it is a matter of fact and public record that can easily be verified if one looks for themselves?

I think to claim they were lying is the problem, unless you can prove it was deliberate. Better to say inaccurate or mistaken if you can't.

 

[WaneLyrical]

The article says a source close to the case, so it’s not even trying to suggest it was hashed out in court. Accusing a journalist of outright fabricating it is ludicrous.

Anyway, as the resident conspiracy theorist, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It’s pretty clear Letby is someone who writes when processing information, considering “hundreds” of handwritten notes were recovered. I do it too, have always done it, and her notes look a lot like my notebooks. I am lost without a pen and paper nearby.

Whether or not she was told via counselling that writing things down is a good idea, it probably wouldn’t have had any bearing on her scribbles, it looks like she does it anyway. I know that writing things down is useful from a counselling or CBT perspective, but it’s not why I do it. If someone asked me why my notebooks look like schizophrenic ramblings, I’d be like “huh, I dunno, I just do it, I just write stuff down”. There’s no deeper meaning. Incidentally, I also struggle to throw these notes away, and so they accumulate until they’re old enough that I consider them to be detached enough to discard.

I’m neurodivergent, which probably explains this quirk. But it’s also the reason why I’m entirely unconvinced by the handwritten notes or the retention of handover notes, or that the notes were some kind of counselling exercise.

 

[OhDannyBoi]

Contact the mods directly - they don't like moderation being discussed publicly.

But, yes, if you can provide links that prove a report is false then I'd do that as WS will want to prevent being sued.

How can I do that?

I think this is important enough that it needs to be discussed publicly. This is a case where journalists have been abusing their positions and publishing false claims not supported by evidence to perpetrate an innocence fraud.

1. The New Yorker article by Rachel Aviv was deconstructed by Judith Moritz and Jonathan Coffrey for their book and they uncovered misleading quote solicitation and grave factual inaccuracies.

2. Sarah Knapton of the Telegraph has been misrepresenting facts about the case in whatever way she can to the point of even overdramaticizing parental testimony from the Thirlwall Inquiry, quickly discovered by comparing her coverage to the transcripts.

3. Felicity Lawrence has misrepresented the qualifications of people she solicited quotes and has fabricated an excuse for the notes that doesn't exist in evidence because Letby herself never claimed those notes were a therapeutic exercise.

To say nothing of the ones from Unherd, Phil Hammond and Peter Hitchens.

The idea that we shouldn't discuss this when it's easy to verify is disturbing. How does one cut through the misinformation if we're not allowed to point out what's real vs what's fake?

 

[OhDannyBoi]

The article says a source close to the case, so it’s not even trying to suggest it was hashed out in court. Accusing a journalist of outright fabricating it is ludicrous.

Anyway, as the resident conspiracy theorist, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It’s pretty clear Letby is someone who writes when processing information, considering “hundreds” of handwritten notes were recovered. I do it too, have always done it, and her notes look a lot like my notebooks. I am lost without a pen and paper nearby.

Whether or not she was told via counselling that writing things down is a good idea, it probably wouldn’t have had any bearing on her scribbles, it looks like she does it anyway. I know that writing things down is useful from a counselling or CBT perspective, but it’s not why I do it. If someone asked me why my notebooks look like schizophrenic ramblings, I’d be like “huh, I dunno, I just do it, I just write stuff down”. There’s no deeper meaning. Incidentally, I also struggle to throw these notes away, and so they accumulate until they’re old enough that I consider them to be detached enough to discard.

I’m neurodivergent, which probably explains this quirk. But it’s also the reason why I’m entirely unconvinced by the handwritten notes or the retention of handover notes, or that the notes were some kind of counselling exercise.

Felicity Lawrence has made misleading claims before. There was an article where it was discovered the person she claimed was a foremost toxicology and insulin expert in Europe was in doubt over the test results. Someone on reddit the pulled out their publication history and discovered they'd never done any research with insulin.

Lucy Letby was directly asked about those notes at trial. It is public record and those transcripts are available publicly through Crime Scene 2 Courtroom. She did not make any claim about those notes being therapeutic exercises or written at the behest of an occupational therapist. It is a complete falsehood that the guilty party did not raise at trial.

 

[OhDannyBoi]

Yes, I agree with you. This has been discussed at length here and there is zero evidence that the notes were written on the advice of a counsellor or medical professional. Letby's side has never claimed such and it was never suggested in court that they were.

Right at the start her KC mentioned that they were ..the outpourings of an anguished and troubled woman under immense pressure... or something to that effect. That, I have no doubt is true, but it doesn't mean anything more and it certainly doesn't lean toward her innocence.

I think that the whole thing initially was taken the wrong way and it's come to settle in the minds of many that they were some sort of medical treatment exercise. They were written before her first arrest and quite possibly before she even knew that the police might even be called in. Writing about killing babies that early on gives an insight into how she feared things would play out, imo.

Yes, it's very much a retroactive excuse to try and weaken evidence against her. This is why I emphasize it is not an inaccuracy but an intentional falsehood. We have her own words on the matter as solicited by both the defence and the prosecution when she was confronted in her evidence in chief as well as cross examination.

 

[Marantz4250b]

How can I do that?

Just report any post - even one of your own - and raise the issue. They'll see it.

Edit: Saturday night so curry and Mojitos. Normal service resumes tomorrow!

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934004963623006411

 

[WaneLyrical]

Well there we have it, straight from the horse’s mouth, question the evidence and convictions and you will be bullied.

 

[JosieJo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934004963623006411

Though I do feel that "some" .. not all ..people find it harder to believe a young nurse could be capable of such horror...and that "some" people need to get out more.....it's really not the best that someone with his role to be so unprofessional.
I know he gets a lot of trolling around his involvement around the case ..but if you can't beat them join them is not the best policy

 

[Sweeper2000]

tbh im more like the baby monitor and turned off by letby in her uniform.

 

[Sweeper2000]

DAILY MAIL COMMENT: Growing drumbeat of doubts over Letby conviction

When Lucy Letby was sentenced to 15 full-life terms there was at least the consolation that justice had been done. Or had it?

www.dailymail.co.uk

"So, it’s hard to imagine a case more emotive or of greater national importance than that of Lucy Letby. Because of this, it’s crucial that the right outcome has been reached.

When Letby was sentenced to 15 full-life terms there was almost a sense of relief.

Nothing could bring back the dead babies or heal those whose lives had been so grievously damaged but there was at least the consolation that justice had been done. Or had it?

Nearly two years after her initial conviction, the drumbeat of doubt grows ever louder and more persistent. New evidence has emerged on several fronts which, had it been available to the court, may conceivably have swayed the jury in another direction."

 

[Ruthbullock]

Yes, I agree with you. This has been discussed at length here and there is zero evidence that the notes were written on the advice of a counsellor or medical professional. Letby's side has never claimed such and it was never suggested in court that they were.

Right at the start her KC mentioned that they were ..the outpourings of an anguished and troubled woman under immense pressure... or something to that effect. That, I have no doubt is true, but it doesn't mean anything more and it certainly doesn't lean toward her innocence.

I think that the whole thing initially was taken the wrong way and it's come to settle in the minds of many that they were some sort of medical treatment exercise. They were written before her first arrest and quite possibly before she even knew that the police might even be called in. Writing about killing babies that early on gives an insight into how she feared things would play out, imo.

Call me sceptical, but this is where I am ending up and again I just appreciate the discussion and perspectives - do you believe there were only 3 notes found in her diaries from over 3 years, or can you see that potentially we were just shown the ones that evidenced guilt at trial and there were actually many, many more notes?

 

[Ruthbullock]

Yes, it's very much a retroactive excuse to try and weaken evidence against her. This is why I emphasize it is not an inaccuracy but an intentional falsehood. We have her own words on the matter as solicited by both the defence and the prosecution when she was confronted in her evidence in chief as well as cross examination.

I really despise when people simply post a reply that states “can you share a link for that” and say nothing more, as that is someone who adds nothing and has no ability to back up their opinion with a quote or article that disputes your point. But begrudgingly, I would say always share a link or quote to support your argument. It’s what separates this forum from others and allows intelligent discussion.

 

[WaneLyrical]

Call me sceptical, but this is where I am ending up and again I just appreciate the discussion and perspectives - do you believe there were only 3 notes found in her diaries from over 3 years, or can you see that potentially we were just shown the ones that evidenced guilt at trial and there were actually many, many more notes?

There’s no dispute around it. There were hundreds of handwritten notes recovered by the police and many protestations of innocence, it was agreed evidence in the trial. If there was anything incriminating in any of the other notes, I’m sure we’d have heard about them.

 

[Charlot123]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934004963623006411

I don’t know where to start.

“Turned on by a nurse’s uniform”sounds problematic and very unprofessional. This is concerning as Dewi Evan’s was hired as a trial consultant in the crown case against a nurse.

“I would suggest you need to get out more, find yourself an available pretty young blonde female, with/without nursing credentials” is misogynistic. Women are not objects. They are not inanimate. You don’t “find” pretty blondes, you work at a good partnership.

As a male pediatrician, Evans is supposed to be the teaching and role model for other male doctors in training. Instead, he is a shame.

Most of all, it is scary that he is still so angry against Lucy Letby, the woman whom his, and his only testimony, sent to jail. He objectivizes her. His words might be even putting her at risk of intramural harassment now.

P.S. JMO. Dewi Evans’s job as the trial consultant ended with Letby’s conviction. Whether he did a good job or a bad one is a legit question, to be asked by other professionals, but his job on this case is over. Do we ever have cases showing so much obvious involvement of the trial consultant in the accused post-trial? Mind you, his words describe Lucy Letby very unprofessionally, in an objectified and sexualized manner. My question is, was Doctor Dewi Evans in the form and shape, mentally, to adequately perform his consultant’s job during the trial, if a year + later, he, a pediatrician, a court-appointed counselor, is behaving like an influencer?

 

[marynnu]

There’s no dispute around it. There were hundreds of handwritten notes recovered by the police and many protestations of innocence, it was agreed evidence in the trial. If there was anything incriminating in any of the other notes, I’m sure we’d have heard about them.

Were there 'many protestations of innocence'? I don't recall that.

 

[WaneLyrical]

Were there 'many protestations of innocence'? I don't recall that.

It was agreed evidence so we didn’t hear anything more about them

 

[WaneLyrical]

I don’t know where to start.

“Turned on by a nurse’s uniform” makes me wonder if the trial expert has own kink. You just don’t say such things unless it is in your subconscious. This is scary as Dewi Evan’s was hired as a trial consultant in the crown case against a nurse.

“I would suggest you need to get out more, find yourself an available pretty young blonde female, with/without nursing credentials”, sounds so misogynistic. Women are not objects. They are not inanimate. You don’t “find” pretty blondes, you work at a decent partnership.

As a male doctor, Evans is supposed to be the teaching and role model for other male doctors in training. Instead, he is a shame.

Most of all, it is scary that he is still so angry against Lucy Letby, the woman whom his, and his only testimony, sent to jail. He objectivizes her. His words might be even putting her at risk of intramural harassment now.

Extremely misogynistic, and, in my opinion, projecting. He’s said similar before, about nurses being interested in doctors. It says a lot about Dewi Evans and how he views nurses.

 

[Dotta]

I don’t know where to start.

“Turned on by a nurse’s uniform” makes me wonder if the trial expert has own kink. You just don’t say such things unless it is in your subconscious. This is scary as Dewi Evan’s was hired as a trial consultant in the crown case against a nurse.

“I would suggest you need to get out more, find yourself an available pretty young blonde female, with/without nursing credentials”, sounds so misogynistic. Women are not objects. They are not inanimate. You don’t “find” pretty blondes, you work at a decent partnership.

As a male doctor, Evans is supposed to be the teaching and role model for other male doctors in training. Instead, he is a shame.

Most of all, it is scary that he is still so angry against Lucy Letby, the woman whom his, and his only testimony, sent to jail. He objectivizes her. His words might be even putting her at risk of intramural harassment now.

In fact,
I chuckled reading this.
Sorry if I sound insensitive
but...
knowing a few male doctors
I noticed they are usually very blunt while expressing their opinions hehehe
No "beating around the bush" for them,
if you know what I mean.

I guess Dr E is just fed up with what is going on.
He devoted years examining this horrific case,
did what he thought was right to bring Justice for the Babies and their poor families.

Sometimes,
a person just reaches a point when diplomacy does not matter any more.

JMO!!!

 

[Charlot123]

In fact,
I chuckled reading this.
Sorry if I sound insensitive
but...
knowing a few male doctors
I noticed they are usually very blunt while expressing their opinions hehehe
No "beating around the bush" for them,
if you know what I mean.

I guess Dr E is just fed up with what is going on.
He devoted years examining this horrific case,
did what he thought was right to bring Justice for the Babies and their poor families.

Sometimes,
a person just reaches a point when diplomacy does not matter any more.

JMO!!!

From what I understand, he was not invited by the crown. Dr. Evans self-invited. Using his longstanding reputation in the field.

However, he is a 75-year-old man who worked in pediatrics (with children) all his life. Pediatricians are not that blunt, and I don’t view him as blunt.

I see him as divisive between doctors and nurses, and it can’t be. We as patients can benefit only if professionally, the doctors and the nurses are under the same umbrella

Dr. Evans’s role was to examine Lucy Letby’s case and provide his learned opinion. How he examined it is questionable but I’d leave it to professionals in neonatology and pediatrics to opine on the case. What is very concerning is that Evans’s current statements indicate his intense projection on Lucy Letby. This makes me wonder if he could even be an impartial trial consultant, during her trial.

P.S. Eons ago, it was impossible for a woman to become a doctor. “Typical” female professions would be secretaries, nurses, teachers. It created a trend towards subservient, not collegial, relationship in the medical field. However, in modern world, women can choose to be nurses, nurse’s practitioners or doctors. They surely don’t need to hear this archaic “hot nurses” stuff.

About doctors being blunt. We expect doctors to tell us the bitter truth, but only in the realm of diagnosis, prognosis, treatment. We surely don’t want our doctor to be judgmental. This is what concerns me about Dewi Evans in Lucy Letby’s case. He is a very partial trial consultant.

BTW, Dewi Evans ribs elbows with the barristers and the judges. The role of a trial consultants is also educational. He is expected to spread the knowledge about the medicine, too. One wonders if Dewi Evans was up to par with this task, considering this “hot blonde nurses” mumbo-jumbo.