UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[Marantz4250b]

I've just made the mistake of clicking the "show ignored content" button.

It's just conspiraloon central out there.

Won't be doing that again in a hurry!

 

[Parker Knoll]

Easily done M !

 

[Marantz4250b]

Easily done M !

Unfortunately so

 

[marynnu]

Having read through everything that we all have, can you seriously use the word “mystery”?

Yes, if you mean finding a normal explanation. But they are no longer a mystery as we know what caused them. Nothing normal about it.

 

[joltz]

Here is what makes me angry with mostly Breary and Jayaram, but with all the senior consultants, too.

These seven doctors think that by putting Lucy behind bars they have closed the problem, but this is not how I view it.

Instead, they have opened the door to a huge string of lawsuits against their colleagues, the doctors. Potentially ending with imprisonment of the doctors. They have shown how easy it is to make such a strong accusation on flimsy evidence and a money-eager trial witness. The press took a note. They have created a horrible precedent.

Medicine is a profession of high risk. Too many people end up unhappy with the results, too many relatives are grieving. It is probably worse in neonatology where parents fight to even have a baby. So the risk of doctors being accused, especially in the situation when old healthcare systems may fail to meet the growing needs, is high IMHO.

To throw “a nurse killer” into the mix is stirring up the pot. I am happy that they didn’t proceed with the movie that histrionic Jayaram dreamed of because it would have generated another mega-wave. People would be looking for cults, for “witches” in the hospital. You just have to start the process.

This is all that Breary, Jayaram, Evans, Gibbs @ Co have done for the profession. This is going to be their legacy when they retire. Nothing else but this.

(Plus, they drove a wedge between the doctors and the nurses, of course, but this is nothing new).

Lol

 

[Sweeper2000]

That's one fruity word salad. Real zesty.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, I agree in the main - and I shouldn't have suggested natural causes as being possible COD overall - but one candidate? That's still circumstantial. If that were not the case, there could be no doubt and this whole debate wouldn't exist. (And FWIW, Devil's Advocate, I believe she's guilty - but I'm heavily influenced by the circumstantial stuff.)

This is a different aspect. “Believe” is still in the intuition area. Can we trust own intuition? Some can. But the police, the jury, the courts can not rely on it. If the doctors working on the unit, all of them, had such a strong intuitive feeling, they should have, together with the police, quietly planned what to do to catch Lucy red-handed.

Yes, if you mean finding a normal explanation. But they are no longer a mystery as we know what caused them. Nothing normal about it.

You believe you know. Doctor Evans seems to be confused: baby C, who, as he proclaimed, died from “Lucy injecting air in his stomach”, apparently, could not have been subjected to that by Lucy. She was not physically present in the hospital during the days it happened.

No big deal, says Dr. Evans. She probably killed him by air embolism.

See why I consider the conviction unsafe?

How it was achieved is a travesty of justice. It is a mockery. Evans is a jester.

However: from time to time I wonder if there were too many lapses in Liverpool hospital that were not reacted to in a proper way? “Why” is something to discuss.

Eons ago, I used to know a nurse who knowingly increased the dose of IV medication given to a patient. It was not meant to kill; rather, the nurse thought they “knew better” than a doctor. That nurse was not ever working after that. Immediately fired, stripped of license and tried to regain the right to work in not-so-attractive areas.

Now: in Wikipedia I see that high dose of morphine was added to the list of Lucy’s transgressions during her training in Liverpool hospital. This raises a lot of questions. If “a mistake”, it has to be removed. Mistakes happen and can be forgiven, just look at the doctors in COCH. But if not…

First, morphine is a highly controlled substance. I remember how all opiates are controlled in the US. I assume the same systems existed in the UK past 2010. So the issue of adding 10x the amount of an opiate is questionable on too many levels. How could it even happen?? With two nurses?? Surely it is not insulin?

The two nurses involved, including Lucy,. were suspended but reinstated in a week when the supervisor came back. So either it was a mistake that could have happened because the system of proper control was not there, or maybe a doctor scribbled the orders, but either way, it raises a lot of questions about opiate control in Liverpool hospital.

Or, it was a minor issue that doesn’t need to be in Wiki? But if it is, it surely needs to be discussed. Tube dislodgements is a very questionable issue, statistically. Impossible to prove. Adding 10x the amount of morphine is something that should have been discussed at the top hospital level because morphine… And, implies, bringing back the sub-supervisor, the supervisor and the second nurse involved. Now.

Qualifying a young nurse who raises questions and passing her to another, regional, hospital for them to deal with her is pushing a potential problem to that hospital.

Something is not right.

 

[marynnu]

If the doctors working on the unit, all of them, had such a strong intuitive feeling, they should have, together with the police, quietly planned what to do to catch Lucy red-handed.

And how precisely do you suggest they would do that?

 

[marynnu]

This is a different aspect. “Believe” is still in the intuition area. Can we trust own intuition? Some can. But the police, the jury, the courts can not rely on it. If the doctors working on the unit, all of them, had such a strong intuitive feeling, they should have, together with the police, quietly planned what to do to catch Lucy red-handed.



You believe you know. Doctor Evans seems to be confused: baby C, who, as he proclaimed, died from “Lucy injecting air in his stomach”, apparently, could not have been subjected to that by Lucy. She was not physically present in the hospital during the days it happened.

No big deal, says Dr. Evans. She probably killed him by air embolism.

See why I consider the conviction unsafe?

How it was achieved is a travesty of justice. It is a mockery. Evans is a jester.

However: from time to time I wonder if there were too many lapses in Liverpool hospital that were not reacted to in a proper way? “Why” is something to discuss.

Eons ago, I used to know a nurse who knowingly increased the dose of IV medication given to a patient. It was not meant to kill; rather, the nurse thought they “knew better” than a doctor. That nurse was not ever working after that. Immediately fired, stripped of license and tried to regain the right to work in not-so-attractive areas.

Now: in Wikipedia I see that high dose of morphine was added to the list of Lucy’s transgressions during her training in Liverpool hospital. This raises a lot of questions. If “a mistake”, it has to be removed. Mistakes happen and can be forgiven, just look at the doctors in COCH. But if not…

First, morphine is a highly controlled substance. I remember how all opiates are controlled in the US. I assume the same systems existed in the UK past 2010. So the issue of adding 10x the amount of an opiate is questionable on too many levels. How could it even happen?? With two nurses?? Surely it is not insulin?

The two nurses involved, including Lucy,. were suspended but reinstated in a week when the supervisor came back. So either it was a mistake that could have happened because the system of proper control was not there, or maybe a doctor scribbled the orders, but either way, it raises a lot of questions about opiate control in Liverpool hospital.

Or, it was a minor issue that doesn’t need to be in Wiki? But if it is, it surely needs to be discussed. Tube dislodgements is a very questionable issue, statistically. Impossible to prove. Adding 10x the amount of morphine is something that should have been discussed at the top hospital level because morphine… And, implies, bringing back the sub-supervisor, the supervisor and the second nurse involved. Now.

Qualifying a young nurse who raises questions and passing her to another, regional, hospital for them to deal with her is pushing a potential problem to that hospital.

Something is not right.

Nobody added 10x the amount of morphine. The pump was set at the wrong rate. The doctor's prescription is irrelevant as they are not 'scribbled' but computer generated. 2 nurses check it is correct before administering. Letby & her colleague were not suspended.
This occurred at Chester not Liverpool.
"Qualifying a young nurse who raises questions and passing her to another, regional, hospital for them to deal with her is pushing a potential problem to that hospital". What does that even mean?
You need to acquaint yourself with the facts before posting this drivel.

 

[Baileyboo]

This is a different aspect. “Believe” is still in the intuition area. Can we trust own intuition? Some can. But the police, the jury, the courts can not rely on it. If the doctors working on the unit, all of them, had such a strong intuitive feeling, they should have, together with the police, quietly planned what to do to catch Lucy red-handed.



You believe you know. Doctor Evans seems to be confused: baby C, who, as he proclaimed, died from “Lucy injecting air in his stomach”, apparently, could not have been subjected to that by Lucy. She was not physically present in the hospital during the days it happened.

No big deal, says Dr. Evans. She probably killed him by air embolism.

See why I consider the conviction unsafe?

How it was achieved is a travesty of justice. It is a mockery. Evans is a jester.

However: from time to time I wonder if there were too many lapses in Liverpool hospital that were not reacted to in a proper way? “Why” is something to discuss.

Eons ago, I used to know a nurse who knowingly increased the dose of IV medication given to a patient. It was not meant to kill; rather, the nurse thought they “knew better” than a doctor. That nurse was not ever working after that. Immediately fired, stripped of license and tried to regain the right to work in not-so-attractive areas.

Now: in Wikipedia I see that high dose of morphine was added to the list of Lucy’s transgressions during her training in Liverpool hospital. This raises a lot of questions. If “a mistake”, it has to be removed. Mistakes happen and can be forgiven, just look at the doctors in COCH. But if not…

First, morphine is a highly controlled substance. I remember how all opiates are controlled in the US. I assume the same systems existed in the UK past 2010. So the issue of adding 10x the amount of an opiate is questionable on too many levels. How could it even happen?? With two nurses?? Surely it is not insulin?

The two nurses involved, including Lucy,. were suspended but reinstated in a week when the supervisor came back. So either it was a mistake that could have happened because the system of proper control was not there, or maybe a doctor scribbled the orders, but either way, it raises a lot of questions about opiate control in Liverpool hospital.

Or, it was a minor issue that doesn’t need to be in Wiki? But if it is, it surely needs to be discussed. Tube dislodgements is a very questionable issue, statistically. Impossible to prove. Adding 10x the amount of morphine is something that should have been discussed at the top hospital level because morphine… And, implies, bringing back the sub-supervisor, the supervisor and the second nurse involved. Now.

Qualifying a young nurse who raises questions and passing her to another, regional, hospital for them to deal with her is pushing a potential problem to that hospital.

Something is not right.

Letby was only at Liverpool Women's for two student placement lasting a few weeks. It was a level 3 NNU so she could gain more experience at caring for sicker babies.

 

[Charlot123]

Letby was only at Liverpool Women's for two student placement lasting a few weeks. It was a level 3 NNU so she could gain more experience at caring for sicker babies.

But specifically this situation is something that raises concern.

In fact, I wonder if there was some lapse of leadership in Liverpool hospital so one supervisor suspends her, then another comes in and returns her back, and no one wants to look into a horrible problem. How is it possible to increase the amount of morphine by x10? Again, opiate crisis in the world... prevention of such mistakes is a severe issue. Could Liverpool be protecting the older nurse? Was it her mistake? But here the pattern the way it looks to me: the Liverpool Hospital was not happy with Letby yet certified her and pushed to a "lower level" facility. But on the personal level, kept and spread the "gossips". This is absolutely not right. You either make Letby repeat the course until you are satisfied, or you raise concerns. If you have "passed" her, it is an "OK" stamp, not "OK with gossips." There may be moral questions when one can "certify with certain caveat". When it comes to patients and practices, it is serious.

We still don't know how it all started. We know that the case is a mess and a joke as of today. Chances are, she will not stay behind bars forever. Because the longer, the less convincing it looks. Definitely, neither Evans nor Jayaram took their roles seriously. You can't nonchalantly say, "we don't know how, but she killed them for sure". You can't lie about what you saw or claim poor memory. (And if your memory fails, you are a bad witness, sorry).

So it will end up as "unsafe conviction". The truth we'll never know but it is about justice and meeting the burden of proof.

 

[Charlot123]

And how precisely do you suggest they would do that?

That is what the police is for. Discussing how to create a situation in the hospital when she thought she was unobserved.

Anything is better than how they organized the "operation Hummingbird" and the problems they are facing now as the result of it. She can't be kept behind bars on non-evidence.

 

[marynnu]

But specifically this situation is something that raises concern.

In fact, I wonder if there was some lapse of leadership in Liverpool hospital so one supervisor suspends her, then another comes in and returns her back, and no one wants to look into a horrible problem. How is it possible to increase the amount of morphine by x10? Again, opiate crisis in the world... prevention of such mistakes is a severe issue. Could Liverpool be protecting the older nurse? Was it her mistake? But here the pattern the way it looks to me: the Liverpool Hospital was not happy with Letby yet certified her and pushed to a "lower level" facility. But on the personal level, kept and spread the "gossips". This is absolutely not right. You either make Letby repeat the course until you are satisfied, or you raise concerns. If you have "passed" her, it is an "OK" stamp, not "OK with gossips." There may be moral questions when one can "certify with certain caveat". When it comes to patients and practices, it is serious.

We still don't know how it all started. We know that the case is a mess and a joke as of today. Chances are, she will not stay behind bars forever. Because the longer, the less convincing it looks. Definitely, neither Evans nor Jayaram took their roles seriously. You can't nonchalantly say, "we don't know how, but she killed them for sure". You can't lie about what you saw or claim poor memory. (And if your memory fails, you are a bad witness, sorry).

So it will end up as "unsafe conviction". The truth we'll never know but it is about justice and meeting the burden of proof.

For goodness' sake. These things DID NOT HAPPEN AT LIVERPOOL.
'the Liverpool Hospital was not happy with Letby yet certified her and pushed to a "lower level" facility'. I have no idea what you are talking about, this is total fantasy.
And for your information, setting a pump at ten times the rate isn't difficult.