GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #12

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #81
I don't know - I am not her. I do not know how she thinks. If she wasn't involved in the death she should have called the police asap I agree. Even if she was scared of him, at the point that he confessed to killing Becky, she must have known he would be going to prison and could not hurt her if she told all she knew. That does not necessarily make her guilty of conspiracy to kidnap and murder.

I look at it like this. I'm on the jury watching her. She stands in front of me on oath and says she never suspected Becky's body was in her house, never suspected NM was behaving strangely, was completely shocked that they were arrested and he had confessed to killing Becky.

I deem her to be lying. She has every opportunity now in court to say she found out in the days after Becky had died and said nothing to anyone because she either thought he would kill her or he was deranged or she would not be believed.

Now is her opportunity, she denies everything and anything. I am not going to believe she wasn't a part of the murder also. It is a circumstantial evidence case, they have some DNA evidence of SH on the face mask and the bin bags. So she wore gloves and NM did as much as he could on his own so that SH would not be tied to the killing and would be saved from prison for their children. They have none of SH's DNA at the murder scene but you don't need DNA evidence to convict for murder.

On 19th itself - a visit while AG was going to be out and on a day when they wouldn't normally go there, checking if Becky's going to be in even though a key was to be left out, to return a tin which entailed all 3 of them getting out of the car and going in the house, stopping en route to buy batteries for the stun gun or 'torch', loading the batteries into the stun gun immediately (NM didn't say he did it when he was in his hurry while SH was outside - his kit was ready, reversing up on the drive instead of parking in the road.

A demonstrated recent history of initiating talk of kidnap. Evidence of a shared jealousy and dislike of Becky with NM. Stun guns delivered in SH's name, unbelievable testimony of not knowing what it was even though NM said he bought them for them to have one each for protection. An unconvincing performance in police interviews, an unconvincing story of being outside for the duration of a long fight and struggle to the death, a killer who has difficulty pegging out the washing, and a demonstration of complete lack of human empathy.

I think there is sufficient for a jury to return a guilty verdict on SH being a party to the kidnap plan and involvement in the death of Becky.

Unless something happens after today to change my mind.
 
  • #82
Here's a video interview from April with Becky's maternal grandmother. I haven't seen this before, but apologies if it's already been posted. She talks fondly of Becky and gives a candid picture of her. She is quite composed, but at one point calls her 'Tanya' by mistake, Tanya of course being her own daughter and Becky's mother.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2015/apr/18/becky-watts-murder-grandmother-video

That is heartbreaking. Becky has a look of her grandmother Pat Watts.
 
  • #83
That really helps illuminate it.
Would love to see a transcript of the real interview in B&White and compare.

BIB 1 Yes , struck me too. Very "rationalising" and "evidence - testing" of her. "Highly unlikely" is a very impersonal way to speak out such intimate, horrible stuff.
BIB 2 Mmmmm - think you spotted a big slip-up there as no cop had mentioned sex-motivated yet had they?
Yes, if she is giving the fact that she was sexually assaulted as a child, as the reason it would be unlikely she'd have participated in what happened to Becky, it does sound like she's assuming Becky's murder was sexually motivated and whats more, that NM was involved in a sexually motivated crime against Becky too, rather than something non-sexual, like an argument that escalated.
 
  • #84
If SH is innocent, I would have expected her interview to be more like this

OMG, he hid her in our house? where? I've been with him all the time, he couldn't have done that, I'd have noticed it. OMG, he was in the bathroom for 3 days first with the saw going and then after that I don't know what he was doing in there for so long, and he kept the door locked too. He said it was to fix the toilet pipes, I must be so stupid to have thought it would take 3 days to fix the toilet. That explains why he's avoided his mum and Darren, and all the family searches. And he made out the car was broken and he had to leave it at my mum's all week, but I knew it wasn't, I couldn't work out why he started behaving like that, now it's beginning to make sense. And he's never deep cleaned the bathroom like that before, he is usually quite lazy when it comes to cleaning, and he didn't want the police going in - he told me it was because of xyz...

what does SH say? I'm a deep sleeper so he could have done all of this while I was asleep (to promote her innocence - I saw nothing strange happening during waking hours). We used a bucket when I was desperate for the loo (to promote her innocence - I Shauna did not go in the bathroom). He did phone some friends to pick us up because he'd had a drink one night but I fell asleep and left him outside chatting. (to promote her innocence - I Shauna did not see or hear the removals from my loft going on outside my door).

She doesn't help the police at all. It is all about her. They ask her - why should we believe you? - because of my history it would be highly unlikely. what a strange thing to say. IMO. She was sexually assaulted I believe I read, on her way to school? - was she alluding to this being a sexually motivated attack gone wrong?

Yes, IMO this perfectly captures what is wrong with her statement. Given that I think she is guilty of some level of involvement (not sure of extent/when/where exactly), I think this reveals her immaturity - its like a child who has cookie crumbs on his face and is standing on a foot stool next to the counter where the cookie jar is sitting, and says "I didn't eat any cookies!!"

Her blanket denial of any awareness or knowledge is just far too simplistic and her emotional response is also inconsistent with that of a completely innocent person. It seems she wasn't smart enough to say what Tortoise said above. She could be guilty and have said that and helped her case tremendously.
 
  • #85
all of her explanations would deem her to be innocent of everything, if believed.

so if you look at her not being involved in the death, but think she found out afterwards, what explanations can there be for not seeking police protection and safety for her and her child? even at the stage where they arrested her for kidnap. she didn't help the police.

I think even if innocent of the killing but guilty of helping cover up, at this stage she could still be hoping that they've been careful enough that there isn't enough DNA evidence for her to be found guilty of anything at all. So faced with a choice between confessing that she helped with the cover up and facing jail time and losing custody of her daughter OR carrying on denying everything in the hope that she's completely cleared of all charges, I think she'd go for the latter.
 
  • #86
I think even if innocent of the killing but guilty of helping cover up, at this stage she could still be hoping that they've been careful enough that there isn't enough DNA evidence for her to be found guilty of anything at all. So faced with a choice between confessing she helped with the cover up and facing jail time and losing custody of her daughter OR carrying on in the hope that she's completely cleared, she'd go for the latter.

I'd have been out of there like a shot with my daughter. Knowing he had the capacity to murder. What would motivate her to help him afterwards?
 
  • #87
I'd have been out of there like a shot with my daughter. Knowing he had the capacity to murder. What would motivate her to help him afterwards?


Because she'd be trying to avoid implicating herself. If she admits perverting the course of justice and preventing burial she's going to be jailed and lose her daughter.
 
  • #88
I'd have been out of there like a shot with my daughter. Knowing he had the capacity to murder. What would motivate her to help him afterwards?

She wouldn't be helping him, she'd be trying to save herself
 
  • #89
Because she'd be trying to avoid implicating herself. If she admits perverting the course of justice and preventing burial she's going to be jailed and lose her daughter.

I don't think her punishment would be very severe if she came clean a week after and said she was forced to help and feared for her own safety and that of their child.
 
  • #90
She wouldn't be helping him, she'd be trying to save herself

sorry think the wires have got crossed here, Colour Purple said what if she was helping in the cover up
 
  • #91
I think even if innocent of the killing but guilty of helping cover up, at this stage she could still be hoping that they've been careful enough that there isn't enough DNA evidence for her to be found guilty of anything at all. So faced with a choice between confessing that she helped with the cover up and facing jail time and losing custody of her daughter OR carrying on denying everything in the hope that she's completely cleared of all charges, I think she'd go for the latter.

Agree and lawyer would have briefed her on all of consequences.
I know you will have covered this but had a look on sentencing, just for "perverting course.... not for all the other charges

The expected range of a prison sentence for perverting the course of justice is between four and 36 months, according to the Crown Prosecution Service.

It carries a maximum punishment of life imprisonment and a fine. But the average sentence served by those jailed for the offence, according to Ministry of Justice figures from December 2010, is 10 months. Curiously, the average for women, at 12.3 months, is higher than for men (9.6 months).

A 2007 appeal judgment said that appropriate sentences for perverting the course of justice should depend on three factors – the "seriousness of the substantive offence to which the perverting of the course of justice related, the degree of persistence, and the effect of the attempt to pervert the course of justice on the course of justice itself".
According to Archbold, the criminal lawyers' reference book, the normal range in sentencing those guilty of concealing evidence is four to 18 months – though longer in more serious cases.

Jeffrey Archer was sentenced to four years' jail in 2001 and perverting the course of justice by concealing the existence of a diary.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/15/perverting-course-justice-maximum-life-sentence
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/perverting_the_course_of_justice/

Just for balance here are the charges she faces:
Shauna Hoare has been charged with the murder of Becky Watts - jointly with Nathan Matthews.
Nathan Matthews has been charged with perverting the course of justice - jointly with Shauna Hoare.
Nathan Matthews and Shauna Hoare have been charged with conspiracy to commit false imprisonment.
Nathan Matthews and Shauna Hoare have been charged with preventing Becky's lawful burial.
Nathan Matthews and Shauna Hoare have been charged with possession of a prohibited weapon.
Nathan Matthews and Shauna Hoare have been charged with four counts of making indecent images of children
 
  • #92
I don't think her punishment would be very severe if she came clean a week after and said she was forced to help and feared for her own safety and that of their child.

Would she really risk that when there's still a chance there might not even be enough evidence to find her guilty of anything. It's not like she'd have perverted the course of justice in a situation where the crime was something minor. It's the murder of a child/young teen and then the child's body was cut up. I think she'd go for the option that gave her at least a chance of being cleared of everything.
 
  • #93
Just for balance here are the charges she faces:

Those were the charges stated in June. That's not quite what she faces now. It's conspiracy to kidnap instead of false imprisonment and the indecent images is not part of this trial

ETA The indecent images charge might even have been dropped
 
  • #94
Agree and lawyer would have briefed her on all of consequences.
I know you will have covered this but had a look on sentencing, just for "perverting course.... not for all the other chargesThe expected range of a prison sentence for perverting the course of justice is between four and 36 months, according to the Crown Prosecution Service.

It carries a maximum punishment of life imprisonment and a fine. But the average sentence served by those jailed for the offence, according to Ministry of Justice figures from December 2010, is 10 months. Curiously, the average for women, at 12.3 months, is higher than for men (9.6 months).


A 2007 appeal judgment said that appropriate sentences for perverting the course of justice should depend on three factors – the "seriousness of the substantive offence to which the perverting of the course of justice related, the degree of persistence, and the effect of the attempt to pervert the course of justice on the course of justice itself".

And you can't get much more serious than murder!
 
  • #95
  • #96
wide range of sentences available for this from suspended to the most serious cases.

Here example of most serious, JDennehy, Peterborough ditch murders

From the judgment:
"
consider first the three counts of preventing lawful and decent burial. It is a
common law offence for which there is no maximum penalty. These were offences
at the very top of the scale of seriousness. I have been referred to a number of
authorities. In particular I have been assisted by the guidance of the Court of Appeal
in the case of Godward [1998] 1 Cr App R (S) 385. This is an offence which can vary
enormously in its seriousness. The most important factor is the intention of the
offender. If the intention was to obstruct the course of justice by concealing a body,
so as to make it difficult or impossible to bring home a charge against the person
responsible for the death, then a sentence at the top of the appropriate scale is
required. That is plainly the position here. The case of Skinner, referred to in
Godward, tends to suggest that any of these three offences on its own would have
merited a sentence of at least 7 ½ years imprisonment after a trial
.* "

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-con...een-v-dennehy-sentencing-remarks-28022014.pdf
 
  • #97
So many unknowns, complexities, and details missing.

If I were a juror I think I'd be in big trouble. There's no smoking gun. The prosecution's case with respect to SH is weak. There is no doubt of that. I get the feeling that when NM confessed, they stopped investigating.

The prosecution has floated a theory that it was sexually motivated and that Becky was dismembered in the bathtub of NM and SH's home. Well we know NM killed her however, his story does not support the theory put forth. The evidence really doesn't prove that Becky was dismembered in the bathtub and in fact the lack of evidence is leaving everyone here scratching their head trying figure out where it really happened. NM's story has nothing to do with a sexual motivation. As unreal as it seems, he could be telling the truth about the motivation. Weird but not unbelievable.

The lack of solid/tangible evidence against SH is, IMO, worrisome. You only need some doubt to creep into the minds of the jurors to acquit. I feel she's guilty. I feel she's lying. I feel a lot about SH and none of it is good however, what I feel is not enough to convict her.

If SH had come out and said, I was aware of what happened. He forced me to take part and I was afraid for my life and that of my child. I'll help you and give you whatever you want then I am much more understanding and less rigid. But she didn't say that. I think she and her lawyer looked at the evidence against her and decided the best game plan was to deny all, and hope for the best because there is a possibility that the jury will acquit her if there is any niggling doubt.

I hate this case. I'm a person who needs closure and we're not going to get it here.
 
  • #98
Those were the charges stated in June. That's not quite what she faces now. It's conspiracy to kidnap instead of false imprisonment and the indecent images is not part of this trial

ETA The indecent images charge might even have been dropped

Yes this is from June's news article- so the indecent images have been dropped? How so?

ETA Found the updated kidnap charge.
 
  • #99
If SH is innocent, I would have expected her interview to be more like this

OMG, he hid her in our house? where? I've been with him all the time, he couldn't have done that, I'd have noticed it. OMG, he was in the bathroom for 3 days first with the saw going and then after that I don't know what he was doing in there for so long, and he kept the door locked too. He said it was to fix the toilet pipes, I must be so stupid to have thought it would take 3 days to fix the toilet. That explains why he's avoided his mum and Darren, and all the family searches. And he made out the car was broken and he had to leave it at my mum's all week, but I knew it wasn't, I couldn't work out why he started behaving like that, now it's beginning to make sense. And he's never deep cleaned the bathroom like that before, he is usually quite lazy when it comes to cleaning, and he didn't want the police going in - he told me it was because of xyz...

what does SH say? I'm a deep sleeper so he could have done all of this while I was asleep (to promote her innocence - I saw nothing strange happening during waking hours). We used a bucket when I was desperate for the loo (to promote her innocence - I Shauna did not go in the bathroom). He did phone some friends to pick us up because he'd had a drink one night but I fell asleep and left him outside chatting. (to promote her innocence - I Shauna did not see or hear the removals from my loft going on outside my door).

She doesn't help the police at all. It is all about her. They ask her - why should we believe you? - because of my history it would be highly unlikely. what a strange thing to say. IMO. She was sexually assaulted I believe I read, on her way to school? - was she alluding to this being a sexually motivated attack gone wrong?


Excellent post
 
  • #100
Those were the charges stated in June. That's not quite what she faces now. It's conspiracy to kidnap instead of false imprisonment and the indecent images is not part of this trial

ETA The indecent images charge might even have been dropped

That means that someone actually believed NM's bizarre story then?

I agree with another poster - it seems like once NM confessed, they took it word for word as the truth, and stopped looking for evidence, stopped investigating and started tying up the loose ends.

Can it be possible that there were other sites involved, which haven't been found, because nobody looked for them? Its the DNA and evidence-free bathroom that still puzzles me. And I still don't understand how they can be so sure that she died at her house, and not somewhere else. Is it because NM said it was there?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
132
Guests online
2,494
Total visitors
2,626

Forum statistics

Threads
633,196
Messages
18,637,822
Members
243,443
Latest member
PhillyKid91
Back
Top