GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #14

[Tortoise]

BIB Joint Enterprise in the UK - no idea if this is going to be suggested - I would have thought Prosecution had to have said it in his closing, unless Judge is going to say it....but definately SH should be considered complicit, imo of course.

not sure if its necessary, the conspiracy to kidnap covers that aspect. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

So let me get this straight, NM has sexual fantasy's about all pretty 16ish young women except his Stepsister? Well maybe but I highly doubt it. A consistent viewer who has in the past watched rape video's of what I'd call a minor and that doesn't mean anything. Someone who takes his wife who's not in on the deed to kidnap his Stepsister saying she would of stopped him if she knew about it. How about SH who's so clueless as to not see what's going on about her. You can tell by her taped interviews she not stupid, yet she doesn't question any of the BS going on around her. Now as I see it NM went there to remove his Stepsister forcibly from her home, I call that kidnapping even if he went there to scare her while doing it, which I highly doubt was the reason. I'm sure SH knew about it, why would MN take the chance of her finding out and stopping him? Here in the States if SH was in on the kidnapping she'd be complicit in the murder, even if she had nothing to do with the killing. This case really makes me angry that even if it was accidental, did he try CPR, or phone for help. No he show a callus disregard for his Stepsister's life. He went there for his prize and didn't care one way or another what happened to Rebecca. So far all I've heard is a load of horse poop, a lot of empty excuses and other ways to minimize the length of sentence's for their crimes. I apologize for my sarcasm, but it's a lot better than a long string of four letter words.

We have joint enterprise here too so if Sh is found to have been part of the kidnap plan she could be found guilty of murder even if she wasn't the one to murder her. I know there's some case that's been in the news where a getaway driver in a bank robbery was convicted of murder under that law because somebody was shot dead during the robbery.

Personally I'm still not convinced there was a kidnap plan. It could be a spur of the moment sexual assault gone wrong (Becky died lying on her back on a hard surface with a hand over her mouth, so he could've been on top of her) or Becky catching him watching or videoing her (He's also up on an unrelated voyeurism charge and an unrelated sexual assault charge). He could then have come up with the kidnap plan as a backstory, thinking it made him sound like some kind of heroic moral crusader, rather than a sex pest.

 

[Alyce]

But when did she know? That's the big question for me. Did they really go to CH that day planning to kidnap Becky? Where were they going to take her? CML - surely not. If they had planned to kidnap Becky for sex what were they going to do? Let her go afterwards and think she'd say nothing. Was the plan always to kill Becky and it just happened too soon? If Becky went missing they must have know they'd be number one suspects. AG knew they were going to CH.

It's the kidnap bit that makes absolutely no sense at all to me. I can sort of get the idea that NM had designs on Becky and SH made herself scare in the garden whilst he "got on with it". It might be he planned to use the stun gun and it didn't work at which point she came in and helped to subdue Becky. Who knows? But I cannot fit this kidnap idea in anywhere. I think the kidnap stuff was all made up afterwards and in doing so, it could backfire on SH bigtime.

I definately think the kidnap story was made up - didnt he say he got the idea from tv - quite likely and he is just copying a storyline that he remembers.

I also dont believe he took a suitcase ( which looked way too small to me to fit a body inside ) a halloween mask or handcuffs. Possibly the stun gun yes, but not used or used incorrectly.

Originally I thought that NM and SH invited Becky back to CML and when she refused, things got out of hand.
But I now think it more likely it was an argument between NM and Becky about money.
The kidnap story is going to backfire on him big time as you say and also on SH. If he had just said it was an argument he might be able to claim manslaughter, but his story screams murder.
Also, I know Becky's dna was on the handcuffs but I am more inclined to believe these were used in the bath ( someone outlined this theory a few threads back ) rather than being taken to CH on that day.

 

[ColourPurple]

Hi all, I've missed everything, I've skim read the last few pages of posts and am getting that we've been fed sob stories so far today.

Has anyone heard anything today which has swayed their opinion?

Sweet F.A. TBH

 

[Tortoise]

But when did she know? That's the big question for me. Did they really go to CH that day planning to kidnap Becky? Where were they going to take her? CML - surely not. If they had planned to kidnap Becky for sex what were they going to do? Let her go afterwards and think she'd say nothing. Was the plan always to kill Becky and it just happened too soon? If Becky went missing they must have know they'd be number one suspects. AG knew they were going to CH.

It's the kidnap bit that makes absolutely no sense at all to me. I can sort of get the idea that NM had designs on Becky and SH made herself scare in the garden whilst he "got on with it". It might be he planned to use the stun gun and it didn't work at which point she came in and helped to subdue Becky. Who knows? But I cannot fit this kidnap idea in anywhere. I think the kidnap stuff was all made up afterwards and in doing so, it could backfire on SH bigtime.

Assume he wouldn't have taken Becky's body into their home if SH didn't already know.
Assume he would not have gone to kidnap Becky at all if SH didn't know. it would have required her assistance, even if it was to cover for him disappearing in their car at the same time Becky disappeared from the house.
Assume their sexual depravity and talk of taking a 16 year old for sex in their house led to this plan to take 16 year old Becky.
Assume if they didn't have something to hold over her to stop her telling, such as an explicit photo designed to look as if she was consenting, they would have had to kill her.
Assume it took NM more than 15-20 minutes to do this killing on his own, recover from the physical exertion on his fibro, clear up upstairs, make several trips back and forth from the car, get rid of blood on himself, and be seated looking relaxed and normal on the sofa.

That's the way I look at it.

 

[ColourPurple]

Before it starts again imminently can someone just confirm they had one shared laptop. Was the forensic analysis of that showing anything dubious after 2014 May - or just what the Prosec are calling evidence of addiction ( ie. regular but standard stuff?)
Do posters think they viewed together on laptop - I was always assuming that but I'm not clear on facts.

I am sure they can also view on the phones. But again no proof they are watching together. How frustrating. Sorry to back track but didn't they share phones as he had poor signal. Was that corroborated?

No need for links just a yes/no!

We haven't heard if the laptop showed anything after May 2014, but it was said that NM bought phones and tablets off Becky so he could have gone through a few devices since then.

And yes SH said NM had his own phone but it often got a poor signal so on those occasions he'd use hers.

 

[Clio]

Here we go Joint Enterprise

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 3 mins3 minutes ago
AL:If she's not guilty of count one (conspiracy to kidnap),as a matter of law,she's not guilty of count two (murder)

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial · 10m10 minutes ago
"Pros have to prove there was an agreement to kidnap – not just that SH knew... but that she agreed to play a part." #beckywatts

 

[Alyce]

Here we go Joint Enterprise

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 3 mins3 minutes ago
AL:If she's not guilty of count one (conspiracy to kidnap),as a matter of law,she's not guilty of count two (murder)

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial · 10m10 minutes ago
"Pros have to prove there was an agreement to kidnap – not just that SH knew... but that she agreed to play a part." #beckywatts

I dont quite get that. S

So, lets say SH had no foreknowledge of NM's alleged kidnap plan, but whilst she is smoking her gigantic cigarette, she hears something going on upstairs, goes to see what's happening, and ends up helping to subdue Becky and is the person who suffocates Becky. Cant that be a murder charge, because at the time she did the suffocation, she knew her actions might result in the death of Becky.

 

[ColourPurple]

Here we go Joint Enterprise

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 3 mins3 minutes ago
AL:If she's not guilty of count one (conspiracy to kidnap),as a matter of law,she's not guilty of count two (murder)

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial · 10m10 minutes ago
"Pros have to prove there was an agreement to kidnap – not just that SH knew... but that she agreed to play a part." #beckywatts

That only works if there really was a kidnap plan. If there wasn't then she could still be involved in what really happened and guilty of murder. Damn, the kidnap story could work in SH's favour after all

 

[YidArmyRach]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial 8m8 minutes ago
"She, SH is not a murderous", Mr Langdon says. He then tells jury they are SH's "only protection" now. #beckywatts

 

[Alyce]

That only works if there really was a kidnap plan. If there wasn't then she could still be involved in what really happened and guilty of murder. Damn, the kidnap story could work in SH's favour after all

But NM has said he planned to kidnap Becky. He has said it was only his plan ( ie SH not involved and had no knowledge ) but SH could still be guilty of murder if she came along and assisted ( my earlier post )

 

[ColourPurple]

I dont quite get that. S

So, lets say SH had no foreknowledge of NM's alleged kidnap plan, but whilst she is smoking her gigantic cigarette, she hears something going on upstairs, goes to see what's happening, and ends up helping to subdue Becky and is the person who suffocates Becky. Cant that be a murder charge, because at the time she did the suffocation, she knew her actions might result in the death of Becky.

Exactly, and the kidnap plan might all be made up to cover what really happened, and what really happened migth have been totally unplanned .

Who is saying this? SH's defence?

 

[YidArmyRach]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial 16m16 minutes ago
"Pros have to prove there was an agreement to kidnap – not just that SH knew... but that she agreed to play a part." #beckywatts


Do they? Did Prosecution ever believe his "kidnap to teach her a lesson" story, or use it in their case against SH?

 

[YidArmyRach]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial 58s58 seconds ago
"If it was Nathan, and a planned sexual attack on Becky, why does it have to involve Shauna at all?" Mr Langdon asks. #beckywatts

Indeed - so why was she there - at every location - along the way?

 

[YidArmyRach]

Siobhan Robbins ‏@SiobhanRobbins 1m1 minute ago
AL:The scenario of his acting alone,going up there alone, unplanned, can you be sure something like that isn't the truth?

 

[ColourPurple]

But NM has said he planned to kidnap Becky. He has said it was only his plan ( ie SH not involved and had no knowledge ) but SH could still be guilty of murder if she came along and assisted ( my earlier post )

Yeah, I get that bit totally. What I dont agree with is that if him saying that if she didnt take part in the kidnap plan then she can't be charged with murder. That only makes sense if there definitely was a kidnap plan, and we don't know that

 

[YidArmyRach]

Siobhan Robbins ‏@SiobhanRobbins 13s13 seconds ago
AL:If it's true then it's nothing to do with SH and will also mean NM won't want to tell anyone about it as couldn't live with the shame.

 

[Clio]

I dont quite get that. S

So, lets say SH had no foreknowledge of NM's alleged kidnap plan, but whilst she is smoking her gigantic cigarette, she hears something going on upstairs, goes to see what's happening, and ends up helping to subdue Becky and is the person who suffocates Becky. Cant that be a murder charge, because at the time she did the suffocation, she knew her actions might result in the death of Becky.

Prosecution have provided no evidence to prove that SH was involved in Becky's actual death. All their evidence is to do with afterwards. Their best bet of getting a conviction for murder against SH is JE. JE requires A & B to conspire to commit crime X (kidnapping) during which A commits crime Y (murder) therefore, by law, B is also guilty of crime Y (murder) if B could foresee that A might commit crime Y (murder)

Am rushing but I think I've got the A, B X & Y's right

 

[cottonweaver]

Assume he wouldn't have taken Becky's body into their home if SH didn't already know.
Assume he would not have gone to kidnap Becky at all if SH didn't know. it would have required her assistance, even if it was to cover for him disappearing in their car at the same time Becky disappeared from the house.
Assume their sexual depravity and talk of taking a 16 year old for sex in their house led to this plan to take 16 year old Becky.
Assume if they didn't have something to hold over her to stop her telling, such as an explicit photo designed to look as if she was consenting, they would have had to kill her.
Assume it took NM more than 15-20 minutes to do this killing on his own, recover from the physical exertion on his fibro, clear up upstairs, make several trips back and forth from the car, get rid of blood on himself, and be seated looking relaxed and normal on the sofa.

That's the way I look at it.

BIB
Completely thinking out loud ( ie. not thought it through properly yet) but could the £ issues/cheque between NM and BW and the expectation of consensual/ non consensual sex ( or whatever) with BW be combined. Money is the "something to hold over her" in some way?

Was it certain that it was NM who was owing cash to her
How much was missing Gran's cheque for?

 

[YidArmyRach]

Siobhan Robbins ‏@SiobhanRobbins
AL:Says of coming days 3 possibilities for SH
1.didnt know anything about it
2.she knew but didn't help
3. She knew and helped

Siobhan Robbins ‏@SiobhanRobbins 20s20 seconds ago
Pros says "it's ridiculous to suggest she was in blissful ignorance".AL asks would NM tell SH or would he try to stay in control?