GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #14

[PrimeSuspect]

Her over confidence is what convinces me of her guilt.

She isn't scared, that isn't normal for someone that has no idea what is happening.

A normal person would ask for a solicitor. Guilty or not.

Someone that had practiced and practiced and practiced a story. Someone who had an idiot boyfriend willing to take the fall on his own. Someone who already knew he would do that, would act as she did.

Her not asking for a solicitor is what gives away her guilt.

I agree, a person in SH's position, if she were completely innocent, would ask for solicitor because she'd have no idea what's happened and whether she has inadvertently said or done something wrong.

Her behaviour is more like someone, imo, who knows all the facts but is confident the police have got nothing on her. Even if I were innocent, I could never be that confident.
SH revealed this in the police interview, there would be no DNA connecting her to the crime. Who says that?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Just to clarify, when I said 'fight' I was referring to the 'fight' for justice ...

Just my own pondering but, i've noticed that Becky's looks are commented on a lot, I wonder if there would be quite the same interest in this case if the victim were overweight, unattractive, or a drug abuser?

Probably not, we could also add a different ethnicity or religion to your list too. It shouldn't be the case, but that's a sad fact.

In this instance, Becky's appearance is part of the motive for her death. NM and SH were intensely jealous of her, she was attracting attention. So we should level that blame at these two, not at people following the trial. I don't believe Becky would be dead now if she were overweight, unattractive or a drug abuser.

Also, we could say the same for SH, if she was some hot femme fetale, the media would be in a frenzy. It actually works in her favour that she's not.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

The £5000 NM had was in the form of ISAs.
As did SH have £5000 in ISAs.
I believe you have to request to cash it in. It's a savings bond.
And actually. If they both had that amount. (Please someone quote me if I'm wrong) they would of been asked if they had any savings. And provided proof of bank account/s. From the Benefits Agency. As to claim Benefits you aren't supposed to have any income. That means savings as well.

Yep, NM and SH are prolific liars and users. SH would have a 'story' why NM and her are not together, and how she became pregnant again. You've got to be pretty good to convince SS. I've got no bones to pick with these types of people, they'll always exist and play the system as long as it exists.
If the whole family turns a blind eye or encourages it, what can one do? Unfortunately, they make it hard for the genuine people in need, who can't come up with elaborate stories and backup.

 

[Wallace]

Yep, NM and SH are prolific liars and users. SH would have a 'story' why NM and her are not together, and how she became pregnant again. You've got to be pretty good to convince SS. I've got no bones to pick with these types of people, they'll always exist and play the system as long as it exists.
If the whole family turns a blind eye or encourages it, what can one do? Unfortunately, they make it hard for the genuine people in need, who can't come up with elaborate stories and backup.

I was a little surprised that the prosecution didn't spend some time focusing on that aspect when both NM and SH were in the dock. A few questions about their living arrangements and what they had told the SS. This would have demonstrated that they are both practiced and seasoned liars.

 

[jbelle]

Okay. We've all mostly got views on the outcome of the case.
But could you give a MOTIVE?

Sex. Maybe some jealousy/hate thrown in the mix, that always seems to be the most dangerous cocktail.

If I were to go to the main page of this forum and randomly selected 100 missing/murdered pretty teen girls, regardless of who is guilty of the crime (family/friend/stranger),
how many do you think WON'T be about sex?

I have followed a lot of these cases, and I have learned that the perpetrator often has no problem admitting to the murder, they just don't like admitting the sexual crimes or intent.
Austin Sigg is one example if I am not mistaken.

He wanted to take BW from her home, with handcuffs and stun guns, then tie her to a tree? Then what? We all know what.

She also just happened to fit his preferred demographic to a t, then we'll mix in the kidnap/rape fantasy and it's not much of a mystery to me what the motive was.

SH is lucky I am not on the jury. I'd be more than comfortable with the decision to lock up any person who would show a family member of a missing teen young girl anything to do with dead/chopped up bodies.



Sorry to keep rambling but I rarely post and get it all in at once. I am getting REALLY sick of these female accomplices/sex offenders getting slaps on the wrist and sympathy.
I feel as though I am expected to just assume she was abused and we have to prove she wasn't.

To me, NM's Grandmother and SH's ex roommate cancel each other out, one witness each. So after that, then what? I lived with an abusive control freak for a couple of years and I too was allowed out to the shops, but if you looked at my phone messages for 10 seconds you would KNOW what was up with our relationship. I would get texts like: "It doesn't take more than an hour to pop over to the pharmacy", I would NOT get texts about sex and kidnapping teens. Does her defense not have ANY texts to back up her claims? Maybe ones we haven't heard of yet? I think we would have though. Then there's the neighbors who say they were so quiet it was like they weren't even home. Could she still have been abusive in the absence of all this? I guess, but I am not just going to ASSUME it with nothing to back it up. I'm not even sure of the relevance, even if she was it would not excuse any of her crimes.

I said it in a previous thread and I will say it again. When we first got to read the texts between those two we weren't reading a dominant/submissive exchange, we were reading two partners chatting. It could have been 2 guys talking to me.


My last thought. I am going off memory here, but I thought some of Becky's makeup was found with the things in the shed. I think we all thought that the couple took things to make it look like she ran away, but maybe NM needed to use some to hide bruising etc from AG? Not sure if it's relevant, just a thought I had.

 

[Cherwell]

I still find it difficult to believe that Becky was not sexually assaulted, given the removed tampon, NMs viewing of simulated rape with a hand over the actress' mouth, and his fixation on teenage girls.

Sexual assault and even rape doesn't have to cause injury. Even if it did cause minor injury, it wouldn't necessarily be visible in a body that had been dead for quite a few days

I agree with you all that the prosecution has been worryingly disappointing. It feels like there is a huge part of the picture that we are missing.

Maybe if there is a lack of physical proof of sexual assault, NM and SH knew the prosecution wouldn't bother going down that road.

I'm thinking that NM and SH have had some secret deal with each other - such as that NM will agree to take all the flack in an effort to spare SH, and in return, SH will agree to not mention anything sexual he did to Becky (and will pretend she doesn't know much at all about the whole murder). This way, NM might be spared having a "pervert" reputation in prison. Obviously I know there is no legal way for such a deal to happen.

I've just remembered reading that the family had asked for some things not to be made public out of respect for Becky.
I'm pretty sure this came from Retribution, but can't check because those posts have now gone (they contained details which would have identified him/her). This may explain why some things are not being reported, but they will have been brought out in court, or at least disclosed to the jury.

I was a little surprised that the prosecution didn't spend some time focusing on that aspect when both NM and SH were in the dock. A few questions about their living arrangements and what they had told the SS. This would have demonstrated that they are both practiced and seasoned liars.

My memory may be playing tricks, but I think that was touched on.

 

[Wallace]

Thanks Cherwell, I probably missed it on one of the days that I wasn't paying full attention.

 

[Wallace]

I have followed a lot of these cases, and I have learned that the perpetrator often has no problem admitting to the murder, they just don't like admitting the sexual crimes or intent.
Austin Sigg is one example if I am not mistaken.

I think the reluctance to admit the sexual element of their crimes is probably related to how they believe they can survive in prison.

If this is seen as an 'accident' or escalation of circumstance rather than a premeditated attack with a sexual motive, they think they will get an easier time in prison.

I believe the only reason that NM has not admitted murder is to try and save SH's skin. I can't see any other reason. If he admitted murder and entered a guilty plea, with full cooperation he could have got as little as 15 years.

 

[cottonweaver]

Just catching up on quite a few pages of posts and there are a few things I would like to pick up on..... i am snipping the posts as my reply will otherwise be huge.

Squish's t re – the used tampon packed with her jumper and no signs of s.assault:

"I still find it difficult to believe that Becky was not sexually assaulted, given the removed tampon..."

Sexual assault and even rape doesn't have to cause injury. Even if it did cause minor injury, it wouldn't necessarily be visible in a body that had been dead for quite a few days

BIB I think this is a v.imp point to bear in mind.
As for the used tampon, yes a couple of explanations have been discussed, but none of them are convincing IMO just from having spent some time on forensics and post mortem changes , coffin death and the like to see if they are.
I totally appreciate some are squeamish about discussing this sort of thing but this is, after all, a crime involving circular saw dismemberment so it's difficult to put aside the grotesque aspects as they are central to proving the credibility of the tall tale.
Now previously, when I raised this ( 2 weeks ago when i joined the thread? ie I know you have discussed it before pre me posting) I conceded: maybe it doesn't matter after all as the forensics have not even mentioned it in their testimony.However now, 2 weeks later, hearing the end of the Pros case, there are so many things that haven't been mentioned or disclosed via media - eg someone brought up why the make-up on mask was not tested to link it to his concealer product as the make up concealer he used would have DNA.
eg. Someone mentioned her loo bucket - was it tested or do we just not know the result?
Now I am thinking, the forensics not mentioning it, is perhaps not so significant .

Hope that's still coherent?!

( I appreciate With this case there are more Qs than As, because we are reliant on just the court reporter's live feeds and we are not seeing what the jury gets in their full record package.)

 

[cottonweaver]

I've just remembered reading that the family had asked for some things not to be made public out of respect for Becky.
I'm pretty sure this came from Retribution, but can't check because those posts have now gone (they contained details which would have identified him/her). This may explain why some things are not being reported, but they will have been brought out in court, or at least disclosed to the jury.
My memory may be playing tricks, but I think that was touched on.

BIB What do you mean Cherwell,specifically on this part? Are you saying they wont release details of sexual assault "aloud" in court?

 

[cottonweaver]

I think the reluctance to admit the sexual element of their crimes is probably related to how they believe they can survive in prison.

If this is seen as an 'accident' or escalation of circumstance rather than a premeditated attack with a sexual motive, they think they will get an easier time in prison.

I believe the only reason that NM has not admitted murder is to try and save SH's skin. I can't see any other reason. If he admitted murder and entered a guilty plea, with full cooperation he could have got as little as 15 years.

Primarily he is trying to get manslaughter, she not guilty to all. He is trying to assist her with that. I think almost all here agree with this so I won't blabber on.
He has to say there was no motive at all, not money, not sex in order not to get Murder. And I would argue that if he did concede a sex motive, it might draw SH into the crime. ( Side issue -sex crime on a step sister - yes definitely more shameful, so in his mind too, is this a secondary concern for him? IDK Maybe it is a big deal?) ***

Anything about subsequent prison treatment IMO wasn't his major concern when this teach lesson tale was concocted

*** Just red jbelle's post now, many great points but besides that, she mentions it's typical that perps do not want to admit the sordid details ,ie. his shame?

 

[Wallace]

Primarily he is trying to get manslaughter, she not guilty to all. He is trying to assist her with that. I think almost all here agree with this so I won't blabber on.
He has to say there was no motive at all, not money, not sex in order not to get Murder. And I would argue that if he did concede a sex motive, it might draw SH into the crime. ( Side issue -sex crime on a step sister - yes definitely more shameful, so in his mind too, is this a secondary concern for him? IDK Maybe it is a big deal?) ***

Anything about subsequent prison treatment IMO wasn't his major concern when this teach lesson tale was concocted

*** Just red jbelle's post now, many great points but besides that, she mentions it's typical that perps do not want to admit the sordid details , shame?

The first part of my reply was generic and not specific to this case. Not admitting the sexual element is far more to do with survival in prison than anything else. Yes I am sure there may be some shame etc but primarily it's about survival.

 

[Yozzer]

I think the reluctance to admit the sexual element of their crimes is probably related to how they believe they can survive in prison.

If this is seen as an 'accident' or escalation of circumstance rather than a premeditated attack with a sexual motive, they think they will get an easier time in prison.

I believe the only reason that NM has not admitted murder is to try and save SH's skin. I can't see any other reason. If he admitted murder and entered a guilty plea, with full cooperation he could have got as little as 15 years.

This is true but I also assumed it might be due to NMs shame (relating to his family) and stigma (relating to society and I guess thus, his subsequent sentencing) that he has assaulted a young female relative.

 

[Wallace]

This is true but I also assumed it might be due to NMs shame (relating to his family) and stigma (relating to society) that he has assaulted a young female relative.

Oh no doubt there is shame. Shame that he was caught. Shame that it was a young female family member etc.

You also need to think about how each of the accused is going to deal with life outside of prison. No matter what the sentences are that they will all receive, they will one day be released. By hiding the sexual element of this crime they are both making that part easier.

I totally agree that hiding the sexual element also helps SH's fairy story.

 

[cottonweaver]

I was a little surprised that the prosecution didn't spend some time focusing on that aspect when both NM and SH were in the dock. A few questions about their living arrangements and what they had told the SS. This would have demonstrated that they are both practiced and seasoned liars.

My reply on this hasn't even appeared so am assuming it's lost for good.

I thought same as you posted above. Consistent liars - to authorities. Fraud etc.
Its a shame as it would assist with undermining credibility of both Defs.

So far how many lies on the stand, as such?
We have an admitted lie on her part re. the sex kidnap texts, but that was pre-trial to police.

Since someone posted here about Tabak case and in-admissability at trial of his viewing () history - prejudicing trial in comparison to it's "evidential value" ( apols it would take me an age of half-loading pages to go find that OP's post)
I wonder if this DSS fraudulence is another example of that?

 

[cottonweaver]

Anyone got any clues on this ? Shauna was sick/ill? From the Defence closings

He asks: Did Shauna want sexual experience with Becky Watts?
Threesome's with a consenting adult is one thing, with a teenager who isn't going to agree isn't going to work - He adds
Says Shauna was sick at the time.

 

[sar2them1984]

I knew someone would pick up on the Daily Mail source However, this was a direct quote, so I'm taking it at face value.

Haha I see what you mean but I was referring to the fact that it is SH mom who has stated this..of course she is going to want NM to come out worse than SH so I'm not sure I fully believe her testimony

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

I think it is most definitely shame (as well as any intentional motive not being compatible with manslaughter) that stops him from admitting this sexually motivated attack on a family member. It is also shame that leads him to deny that he had saved a depraved rape video on his phone. But his building constant sexual frustration that he does admit to gives him away.

This was not a plan to make Becky be more appreciative of her parents.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Anyone got any clues on this ? Shauna was sick/ill? From the Defence closings

He asks: Did Shauna want sexual experience with Becky Watts?
Threesome's with a consenting adult is one thing, with a teenager who isn't going to agree isn't going to work - He adds
Says Shauna was sick at the time.

Morning sickness? (but can we believe anything she spouts?)

 

[Yozzer]

Anyone got any clues on this ? Shauna was sick/ill? From the Defence closings

He asks: Did Shauna want sexual experience with Becky Watts?
Threesome's with a consenting adult is one thing, with a teenager who isn't going to agree isn't going to work - He adds
Says Shauna was sick at the time.

Morning sickness?