GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

[cottonweaver]

IMO I really think he/NM hasn't elaborated much else to the facts of the case other than what we know. Because he wants 'his' family to be spared of the stomach churning details he has in his head. NM wanted love.. a Mothers love. And when BW took a huge part of his mom/AG in those first few years when AG spent months as an unpaid TA in BW'S classroom. That was the pinnacle for me..... For whatever reason NM was sent to live with his Grandmother. Yes, his Grandmother did a fine job of raising him. But the seeds of doubt had already been sewn in his mind... 'why?'
What did this 'Becky' girl have what he didn't have? She in fact 'stole' his mother. And I don't think he's ever forgot that betrayal by someone he loved so much. To distance themselves from him. I feel much resentment followed from this point on.
I really think that it's unrequited love.
There ain't no love like a Mothers love. And NM hated BW for that.
He just wants his mother to love him. He ' got rid of the problem that was Becky.' His mother and stepdad didn't have to go thru all the anguish of the big arguments. Stuff left lying around. His mom was safe now. And it was down to him she was safe.
That's how I see it. The letter he wrote his Mother while on remand. We don't know it's contents. But I'm sure it reads something like ' I'm so sorry mom. But I couldn't bear her being so nasty to you. Forgive me I love you mom' .... to that effect.

Sorry to babble on. Jmoo
#justiceforBecky♡

Another really good post.
I do think AG is key, but can I ask you, do you think there is a sexual motive at all?
I was coming round to the idea over the last week or so, that there was a combined motive, incl. sexual

so many valid ideas now, my head is spinning!

 

[Gigi-G]

http://theukdatabase.com/2015/11/10/maurice-hoare-roscommon/

Evening all, I'm playing catch up again but just seen this with regard to SH's Uncle. Didn't she hint at 'something in her past' during her Police interview? Just wandering if this may have an affect at Sentencing etc.

She was attacked on her way to school if I remember rightly.
I don't think it was a family member who was the perp.

 

[Hexenb]

That was why I thought of the bar across the bedroom door, with the handcuffs. One cuff attached to the bar, the other to the right wrist.
Body standing in the blue box - the one that was eventually used to transfer body parts to Barton Court, so no problem if any dna found in there.
As someone else on here has already pointed out, a circular saw does not throw stuff out ( sorry bit graphic that ) so probably very little mess.
Blood would have pooled by then ( Jessie's post ) and, once rigor had worn off ( 24 hrs from onset ? ) it would have been possible to do the dismemberment.
I am about 2 inches shorter than Becky and, standing inside my bedroom door frame with my arm stretched up, my wrist is exactly at the right place to be in a handcuff and suspended from a bar.
Fortunately when I did this measurement there was no one else at home !

I am so glad I am not the only one playing out these scenarios Alyce although I do drag my friends in for their input they are now used to my odd ways:blushing:

 

[Hexenb]

ETA

I also believe NM & SH Fed off each other.. They were like 2 peas in a pod.

Yes I have always thought that I can just see them planning their vendetta against poor Becky

 

[Gigi-G]

Another really good post.
I do think AG is key, but can I ask you, do you think there is a sexual motive at all?
I was coming round to the idea over the last week or so, that there was a combined motive, incl. sexual

so many valid ideas now, my head is spinning!

I think it's all derivative to his 'plan' ... and that part he is keeping under lock and key in his head. As if his mother knew the surrounding circumstances to what happened really and why. He'd be fearful he'd lose her love forever.
Yes I think it could be complicit in a sexual motive. After all. He does like young girls. And they were related by marriage not by blood.
Maybe once the Trial is over. And sentences done. Maybe just maybe. He will spill the beans shall we say.

#justiceforBecky♡

 

[cottonweaver]

RSBM for focus

Unfortunately, there are many ways that women (and even children) have been held captive without neighbors hearing anything...many detailed right here on Websleuths. Using a gag, drugging them, chaining them or confining them so they can't move around, etc.

NM and SH are not friendly with their neighbors. They don't have visitors to their home. They could keep a lot secret. If they were to decide later they needed to disguise noises, they could play their stereo or TV loudly, or they could buy some sound insulation and add it to their attic. It really wouldn't be difficult. How many times on here have we all wondered how neighbors didn't know someone was being held captive next door? Too many times for my peace of mind, I must say.

This is all true. And we do know of examples where the female of the house has been compliant with this although not part of the actual assaults.
But I am also swayed by what posters say about the noise transference in these house types and wouldn't he have a room/space set up in advance.
How easy is it to sound insulate a loft - we insulated our house just between the roof rafters and then floored the loft - it takes a while.
Short term drugging I can believe - in any city in the UK it would be easy to get Rohypnol and the like

...and as I write this I see the photo of SH with the knowing look, sipping from the bottle of "Mickey Finn"!

I think it's really constructive to throw anything and everything at this, a whole range of speculative theories, but I'm not sure...

 

[Gigi-G]

Yes I have always thought that I can just see them planning their vendetta against poor Becky

Yes indeed. There's alot more of this case we don't know. But I'm sure it wasn't a spur of the moment attack. It was planned. But his plan went wrong...
I do hope Becky's family find closure to this awful event. And keep her memory alive. In the hearts of us all ♡

 

[mrazda71]

IMO I really think he/NM hasn't elaborated much else to the facts of the case other than what we know. Because he wants 'his' family to be spared of the stomach churning details he has in his head. NM wanted love.. a Mothers love. And when BW took a huge part of his mom/AG in those first few years when AG spent months as an unpaid TA in BW'S classroom. That was the pinnacle for me..... For whatever reason NM was sent to live with his Grandmother. Yes, his Grandmother did a fine job of raising him. But the seeds of doubt had already been sewn in his mind... 'why?'
What did this 'Becky' girl have what he didn't have? She in fact 'stole' his mother. And I don't think he's ever forgot that betrayal by someone he loved so much. To distance themselves from him. I feel much resentment followed from this point on.
I really think that it's unrequited love.
There ain't no love like a Mothers love. And NM hated BW for that.
He just wants his mother to love him. He ' got rid of the problem that was Becky.' His mother and stepdad didn't have to go thru all the anguish of the big arguments. Stuff left lying around. His mom was safe now. And it was down to him she was safe.
That's how I see it. The letter he wrote his Mother while on remand. We don't know it's contents. But I'm sure it reads something like ' I'm so sorry mom. But I couldn't bear her being so nasty to you. Forgive me I love you mom' .... to that effect.

Sorry to babble on. Jmoo
#justiceforBecky♡

Do we know as fact that Nathan was "sent to live with his Grandmother" ?
If not, it could be that he's always lived with and been raised by his Grandmother and has known no different, it could be that he and Anji lived with the Grandparents and when Anji wanted to move out Nathan didn't want to leave and wanted to stay with the Grandmother?

 

[Beesknees]

Gigi-G what is an unpaid TA and what is tha story about AG in Becky's classroom? Where can I find it? I've never heard of that! :thinking:

TY

 

[Gigi-G]

Gigi-G what is an unpaid TA and what is tha story about AG in Becky's classroom? Where can I find it? I've never heard of that! :thinking:

TY

A TA is a Teachers Assistant. I think it goes back to when Becky was a youngster. Let me see if I can find the link. However my phone hates copy and paste lol.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it's all derivative to his 'plan' ... and that part he is keeping under lock and key in his head. As if his mother knew the surrounding circumstances to what happened really and why. He'd be fearful he'd lose her love forever.
Yes I think it could be complicit in a sexual motive. After all. He does like young girls. And they were related by marriage not by blood.
Maybe once the Trial is over. And sentences done. Maybe just maybe. He will spill the beans shall we say.

#justiceforBecky♡

BIB Useful point - the two can co-exist. Sex motive plus mother issues ( & profound jealousy) .
There is no doubt that he feels the most shame in front of AG and she is key - why I so wanted her to testify
Presume psychos/killers can be driven by a whole bundle of motives, some that these people cannot admit to themselves - hence crime writers can spend many pages teasing out & unravelling motives, why.
Plus , as many agree, "these two feed off each other " so we have to combine her, possibly slightly different, personal motives too.
He would make a fascinating case for some Broadmoor psychiatrist.

To repeat what s.one else said today (Alyce?) I do agree, when they are observing the court hearing behind their screen, it must cross their mind that the court are putting together all these interpretations on their actions, some correct, others wide of the mark.

Its very frustrating, that both are holding fast to their stories.

 

[Gigi-G]

Do we know as fact that Nathan was "sent to live with his Grandmother" ?
If not, it could be that he's always lived with and been raised by his Grandmother and has known no different, it could be that he and Anji lived with the Grandparents and when Anji wanted to move out Nathan didn't want to leave and wanted to stay with the Grandmother?

I think is was quoted that NM went to live with Grandmother as a youngster.

 

[LookingForClues]

This is all true. And we do know of examples where the female of the house has been compliant with this although not part of the actual assaults.
But I am also swayed by what posters say about the noise transference in these house types and wouldn't he have a room/space set up in advance.
How easy is it to sound insulate a loft - we insulated our house just between the roof rafters and then floored the loft - it takes a while.
Short term drugging I can believe - in any city in the UK it would be easy to get Rohypnol and the like

...and as I write this I see the photo of SH with the knowing look, sipping from the bottle of "Mickey Finn"!

I think it's really constructive to throw anything and everything at this, a whole range of speculative theories, but I'm not sure...

We don't know that they didn't have the attic set up in advance. The only thing we know is that by the time LE went through the house, the attic was full of junk. They easily could have put that stuff up there after the fact. Perhaps the attic was the only other room, besides the bathroom, that was clean as a whistle. I still wonder if LE thought to look for forensic evidence in the attic once they had removed all the junk out of it.

Just some random thoughts... I think one of the most disturbing parts of this case is there are so many theories that make sense as far as putting the puzzle pieces together.

 

[jessie]

Would you care to elaborate on the subject of clingfilming a bathroom wall..?
You see I know.. I would end up covered in it... not the wall ��

Well Gigi yes. It isn't as awkward as I expected !
Start at the bottom of the wall, immediately above the bath. Pull out 12 inches of clingfilm and press onto the tiles, then pull across, easy peasy. If done in a horizontal way it works. Just press and it sticks to the tiles.

As to the suitcase if anyone is curious = I am 5'8" and 9 st. 12 oz. so quite large in comparison to RW. I have attempted in many ways to get into a suitcase measuring min. 10" deep, 16" wide and 24 long (a large suitcase). I can't do it. I can get my body in various ways, but there is never room enough for my head as well.

I see this does sound utterly ridiculous, but was all important to satisfy myself of various facts.
Honestly I am just a normal person. :shame:


eta: Well I was before I joined WS. :thinking:

 

[cottonweaver]

Brilliant jessie, and I love that you have admitted to it - so funny though - don't tell your friends though , as they will think you have lost it!

I recall as students, for a laugh, me and a friend getting into holdalls to see if we could fit and we did! Never tried a suitcase.

That Dexter chap uses a heavy gauge plastic to tent his kill rooms, I think you have made it very difficult for yourself with cling film!!

 

[cottonweaver]

We don't know that they didn't have the attic set up in advance. The only thing we know is that by the time LE went through the house, the attic was full of junk. They easily could have put that stuff up there after the fact. Perhaps the attic was the only other room, besides the bathroom, that was clean as a whistle. I still wonder if LE thought to look for forensic evidence in the attic once they had removed all the junk out of it.

Just some random thoughts... I think one of the most disturbing parts of this case is there are so many theories that make sense as far as putting the puzzle pieces together.

On this related angle, we all had a long discussion about whether the bathroom was staged. ( ie. It was a while back when folk were still believing that bathroom was most likely room for the sawing etc.) cause when the CNL photos were viewed, there was so much junk in that bathroom , not noted by first female cop ( she said bags on floor) , that it was hard to imagine he could do all the horrid stuff in there without getting transference onto these items.

Will find the photos again, here you are, last 12 or so are CML:

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/pictures/beccky/pictures-27974874-detail/pictures.html

cops said loft was full of junk, but yes it too could have been staged, but I ask myself, why hasn't neighbour Webb heard more of all this furniture shifting?

 

[LookingForClues]

On this related angle, we all had a long discussion about whether the bathroom was staged. ( ie. It was a while back when folk were still believing that bathroom was most likely room for the sawing etc.) cause when the CNL photos were viewed, there was so much junk in that bathroom , not noted by first female cop ( she said bags on floor) , that it was hard to imagine he could do all the horrid stuff in there without getting transference onto these items.

Will find the photos again, here you are, last 12 or so are CML:

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/pictures/beccky/pictures-27974874-detail/pictures.html

cops said loft was full of junk, but yes it too could have been staged, but I ask myself, why hasn't neighbour Webb heard more of all this furniture shifting?

Yes, I remember this discussion. I think I might have even shared some thoughts on it. I have no idea why the neighbor didn't hear more furniture being moved. Maybe they were quiet whenever possible, since some stuff can be moved around without making a bunch of noise. Or maybe the neighbor has a normal life and isn't home 24/7 to hear every sound coming from their apartment.

 

[Alyce]

Do we know as fact that Nathan was "sent to live with his Grandmother" ?
If not, it could be that he's always lived with and been raised by his Grandmother and has known no different, it could be that he and Anji lived with the Grandparents and when Anji wanted to move out Nathan didn't want to leave and wanted to stay with the Grandmother?

The info I have ( from the grandparents testimony ).
They said that NM lived with them from the age of 7 to the age of 23.


This is the best link I could find - snipped from a very long article. We have been told that NM moved out to live with SH when she was 16, which means NM was 23.
So counting back 15 years, makes him about 8 when he went to live with his grandparents.
The witness is Christopher May - NMs grandmother's husband.

The witness was asked about Matthews background.

The court heard that Matthews lived with May for around 15 years, before he moved in with Shauna Hoare. When asked if he was close to him, the witness said Matthews was "closer to his grandmother".

May told the court that he would visit the home of Becky Watts occasionally. He said he did not see Hoare and Matthews arguing with each other. The defence barrister mentioned a police statement in which May had described Matthews as "a bit of a control freak", telling her what she shouldn't eat when she was pregnant. Apart from that he did not see anything in the couple which he would describe as unusual.


http://www.itv.com/news/west/story/2015-10-07/becky-watts-trial-day-2/

 

[Gigi-G]

Gigi-G what is an unpaid TA and what is tha story about AG in Becky's classroom? Where can I find it? I've never heard of that! :thinking:

TY

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-grandmother-reveals-murdered-5536945

 

[Clio]

Further confirmation that for SH to be found guilty of murder it must be proven that she was party to kidnapping.

“There is only one way in which the prosecution can establish intent against Ms Hoare,” the judge said. “That is by proving that Ms Hoare participated or continued to participate in the kidnapping of Ms Watts..."

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/10/becky-watts-jury-set-to-retire-to-consider-verdicts