GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

[jessie]

The info I have ( from the grandparents testimony ).
They said that NM lived with them from the age of 7 to the age of 23.

Goodness. I hadn't really thought about it, but Anji had been with DG for 13 years (RW 3 years old) and DG's son 7 years old. NM still with his grandparents when she begins a new life taking on someone else's children and he is just 8 years old. Not excusing him in any way, but it must have been difficult for him then. 3 more competitors for his mother's affection.

 

[Gigi-G]

The info I have ( from the grandparents testimony ).
They said that NM lived with them from the age of 7 to the age of 23.


This is the best link I could find - snipped from a very long article. We have been told that NM moved out to live with SH when she was 16, which means NM was 23.
So counting back 15 years, makes him about 8 when he went to live with his grandparents.
The witness is Christopher May - NMs grandmother's husband.

The witness was asked about Matthews background.

The court heard that Matthews lived with May for around 15 years, before he moved in with Shauna Hoare. When asked if he was close to him, the witness said Matthews was "closer to his grandmother".

May told the court that he would visit the home of Becky Watts occasionally. He said he did not see Hoare and Matthews arguing with each other. The defence barrister mentioned a police statement in which May had described Matthews as "a bit of a control freak", telling her what she shouldn't eat when she was pregnant. Apart from that he did not see anything in the couple which he would describe as unusual.


http://www.itv.com/news/west/story/2015-10-07/becky-watts-trial-day-2/

Ty Alyce

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, I remember this discussion. I think I might have even shared some thoughts on it. I have no idea why the neighbor didn't hear more furniture being moved. Maybe they were quiet whenever possible, since some stuff can be moved around without making a bunch of noise. Or maybe the neighbor has a normal life and isn't home 24/7 to hear every sound coming from their apartment.

BIB yes, if Webb neighbour works, even part time, they would know her shift patterns etc ( as they are home 4 days a week) and perhaps could easily do some of the heavy lifting when Webb is out.

Then we come back to the alleged fibro again - she would need to help him shift stuff, if that is to be believed.
Repeating myself but why didn't Pros cross x him on this in order to help convict SH as his able assistant - surely when Pros ignore something like this it means it wouldn't help their case. ( ie. he has a diagnosis for it. )

Next - Aren't DSS/wheoever so "onto " these disability claims now* - how could he fake the fibro with them?

sartherm - do you have any knowledge of that * in your professional work?

 

[Gigi-G]

Well Gigi yes. It isn't as awkward as I expected !
Start at the bottom of the wall, immediately above the bath. Pull out 12 inches of clingfilm and press onto the tiles, then pull across, easy peasy. If done in a horizontal way it works. Just press and it sticks to the tiles.

As to the suitcase if anyone is curious = I am 5'8" and 9 st. 12 oz. so quite large in comparison to RW. I have attempted in many ways to get into a suitcase measuring min. 10" deep, 16" wide and 24 long (a large suitcase). I can't do it. I can get my body in various ways, but there is never room enough for my head as well.

I see this does sound utterly ridiculous, but was all important to satisfy myself of various facts.
Honestly I am just a normal person. :shame:


eta: Well I was before I joined WS. :thinking:

I am seriously lolling here. Sorry. But I'd trip over nothing. I'm pretty much sure that me and cling film do not get on. And if I had tested this scenario out. I'm sure my pic would of gone viral by now thanks to the OH.
As I'd be in a huge conundrum. 😂

 

[Clio]

Thanks.

Well that is one plausible theory for how they may have planned to get away with kidnapping Becky.

And what I like about it is that it involves Nathan's tree. The one he was going to tie her to. He just omitted to say that it would be hanging from a branch.

Possible if the plan was to abduct and kill Becky. If there had been a plan to sexually assault her after abduction, presumably that would come to light as part of a PM, resulting in a murder investigation. If the plan was abduction & sexual assault, wouldn't it be more likely the disposal plan would have been something where she wasn't found, or, at least, wasn't found for some considerable time?

 

[Alyce]

Interesting snippet which I dont remember being specifically tweeted ( I could have missed it of course ! ), which shows NM confirming the story for KD to tell JI, re him being thrown out by SH.


Mr Hammond asked: "You told Karl that if anybody asked you had an argument with Shauna and you were moving out for a few days?"

Matthews replied: "That was the cover story if we got pulled over."

Mr Hammond said: "You relied upon Karl to make sure that James understood that because he was your mate?"

Matthews replied: "Yes."

Mr Hammond said: "Everything was being done through Karl because he was your friend."

Matthews replied: "Yes."


http://www.independent.ie/world-new...s-watched-🤬🤬🤬🤬-daily-court-told-34149746.html

 

[Cherwell]

Then we come back to the alleged fibro again - she would need to help him shift stuff, if that is to be believed. Repeating myself but why didn't Pros cross x him on this in order to help convict SH as his able assistant - surely when Pros ignore something like this it means it wouldn't help their case. ( ie. he has a diagnosis for it. )

Next - Aren't DSS/wheoever so "onto " these disability claims now* - how could he fake the fibro with them?

Prosecution accepts that he has this condition. Why would they want to contest it? He has testified that he cannot easily perform certain tasks, so this does help to prove that he couldn't have acted alone. Convicted by his own testimony!
I don't think there has been any suggestion that he has faked it. Retribution confirmed that he has a debilitating condition, although s/he didn't know the details.

 

[Gigi-G]

BIB Useful point - the two can co-exist. Sex motive plus mother issues ( & profound jealousy) .
There is no doubt that he feels the most shame in front of AG and she is key - why I so wanted her to testify
Presume psychos/killers can be driven by a whole bundle of motives, some that these people cannot admit to themselves - hence crime writers can spend many pages teasing out & unravelling motives, why.
Plus , as many agree, "these two feed off each other " so we have to combine her, possibly slightly different, personal motives too.
He would make a fascinating case for some Broadmoor psychiatrist.

To repeat what s.one else said today (Alyce?) I do agree, when they are observing the court hearing behind their screen, it must cross their mind that the court are putting together all these interpretations on their actions, some correct, others wide of the mark.

Its very frustrating, that both are holding fast to their stories.

I'm pretty much certain that he/NM.will undergo some Psych evaluation. Probably not too long after the sentencing. Mainly because I think it will slowly twist his mind. As SH won't be there for him to bounce off of. He will be like a coiled spring emotionally. And even tho he has a loving Mother AG and Grandmother MM, I really don't know what their reactions will be once the Trial is over. That's a case for behind closed doors. And a lot of heartache.
Even if your child has done wrong. A Mothers love is unconditional. And NM has already extended his heartfelt thoughts in his letter to her.
But I still think more will surface in the tabloids..

#justiceforBecky ♡

 

[cottonweaver]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-grandmother-reveals-murdered-5536945

That's really interesting a I haven't read it before

Another thing strikes me ( although it may be meaningless ) in terms of motive.

It's interesting that Dad really describes a very very shy girl, BW

I am wondering why now?Why attack/kill/ things come to a head now? (There were opportunities before for NM, if it was sexual, she was still a pretty teen for years before her actual death.)

Is it her increasing confidence ( boyfriend, male friends, burgeoning woman - hood, anorexia under control) that's part of the catalyst? Building resentment in SH and sexual jealousy (Luke O etc) for NM. ie Becky Watts is now coming into her own. more confident, happy, carving out a better future - so some people may resent this? Who would resent this most now? from NM's point of view, BW has been "stealing" his mum's love for years already... why now not before?

I can't remember the poster's name who referred to SH's comments about intimate details of BW, padded bras, virginity etc.....sorry

 

[ColourPurple]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-grandmother-reveals-murdered-5536945

"Becky has left a huge void in our lives and touched the hearts of the nation.

"We all loved you so much and as you look down from heaven just look at what your short life has achieved - not bad for a shy girl. You will forever be in our hearts and thoughts, rest in peace angel of Bristol.

"Thank you to all the people of Bristol and all the fundraisers and all the support we have received from the entire country."

And beyond the nation; we have people on here from America, Canada, Australia and Portugal all hoping and praying that Becky and her family get justice.

 

[Gigi-G]

Interesting snippet which I dont remember being specifically tweeted ( I could have missed it of course ! ), which shows NM confirming the story for KD to tell JI, re him being thrown out by SH.


Mr Hammond asked: "You told Karl that if anybody asked you had an argument with Shauna and you were moving out for a few days?"

Matthews replied: "That was the cover story if we got pulled over."

Mr Hammond said: "You relied upon Karl to make sure that James understood that because he was your mate?"

Matthews replied: "Yes."

Mr Hammond said: "Everything was being done through Karl because he was your friend."

Matthews replied: "Yes."


http://www.independent.ie/world-new...s-watched-🤬🤬🤬🤬-daily-court-told-34149746.html

Which fits in with JI. He thought he was there CML to grab NM'S things as he'd been thrown out.
I think JI was just the unlucky scapegoat in the wrong place at the wrong time doing a favour for 'a mate'.

#justiceforBecky♡

 

[Gigi-G]

And beyond the nation; we have people on here from America, Canada, Australia and Portugal all hoping and praying that Becky and her family get justice.

Amen ♡

 

[ColourPurple]

Well Gigi yes. It isn't as awkward as I expected !
Start at the bottom of the wall, immediately above the bath. Pull out 12 inches of clingfilm and press onto the tiles, then pull across, easy peasy. If done in a horizontal way it works. Just press and it sticks to the tiles.

As to the suitcase if anyone is curious = I am 5'8" and 9 st. 12 oz. so quite large in comparison to RW. I have attempted in many ways to get into a suitcase measuring min. 10" deep, 16" wide and 24 long (a large suitcase). I can't do it. I can get my body in various ways, but there is never room enough for my head as well.

I see this does sound utterly ridiculous, but was all important to satisfy myself of various facts.
Honestly I am just a normal person. :shame:


eta: Well I was before I joined WS. :thinking:

My sons thought I was nuts when I told them that if they were to accidentally kill somebody they must never ever try to cut up or destroy the body, thank God they've never caught me trying to cling film walls or fit in a suitcase! lol

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Goodness. I hadn't really thought about it, but Anji had been with DG for 13 years (RW 3 years old) and DG's son 7 years old. NM still with his grandparents when she begins a new life taking on someone else's children and he is just 8 years old. Not excusing him in any way, but it must have been difficult for him then. 3 more competitors for his mother's affection.

NM born Jan 1987
DW born Feb 1995
BW born June 1998

NM presumably living with his mum (AG, plus dad?) 1987 - 1994
NM living at grandparents 1994 - 2010
NM living with SH 2010 - 2015

AG & DG get together 2002 when NM is 15 and Becky is a preschooler aged just 3 or 4. Was she living with her mum at this point? Do we know when she moved in with her dad?

Do we know why NM was not raised by his mum? Who is his dad? Does he have siblings?

Seems to me he has probably been harbouring jealousy/resentment issues from a young age. I wonder what age he was when AG started raising Becky and her brother. Have we any clarification of this?

 

[cottonweaver]

Prosecution accepts that he has this condition. Why would they want to contest it? He has testified that he cannot easily perform certain tasks, so this does help to prove that he couldn't have acted alone. Convicted by his own testimony!
I don't think there has been any suggestion that he has faked it. Retribution confirmed that he has a debilitating condition, although s/he didn't know the details.

I thought that is what I said or implied in my OP...

Prosecution would like to get a guilty conviction for SH too
Prosecution would be aided in the above, through their argument that NM needed help.
If Prosecution can bolster NM incapacity through diagnosis of Fibro, it helps their case.
I would have expected Pros to read from the diagnosis/outline specifically to jury, make a forceful point about it : NM cannot do this alone, he needed assistance.
We Wsers haven't really been privy to anything specific or clear-cut on his fibro, (ditto his MHealth, incidentally) - have we really....? Is it an extreme case of fibro? Does he have treatment? Treatment that works? I don't have any detail.

I will go back and check my OP. maybe it's just crossed wires etc.

ETA - Apols, yes my bad Cherwell - it was very unclear , i put cross x NM -my error
I mean BIB above. Pros to spell out his fibro is "so bad" , specifically x, y, z, here's a quote from his diagnosis, to make it clear on stand it was IMPOSSIBLE for NM to do this alone due to health issue.

 

[ColourPurple]

I've always thought they planned to kidnap BW. Just the purchase of stun guns makes me believe that. Then add the texts and the videos, which most people would not consider to be "normal sexual banter between partners" and "normal viewing habits." I don't think it's a coincidence that they wanted to stop by the house while his mom was gone but while BW would be home alone. I think those opportunities are few and far between, since AG is ill and usually home, so they had to wait for just the right time.

I've said before that I believe they planned to kidnap her, take her back to their apartment, keep her for awhile for some very dark fantasies, then kill her. Nothing has changed my mind about that. I think they thought it would be easy peasy to kidnap her from the house: take her by surprise (simply by being in the house when she thought she was alone), stun her so she'd be unconscious, carry her outside (not in a suitcase!) and put her in the boot of the car. They didn't expect her to fight back (why they would think that, I have no idea, other than they overestimated the effectiveness of the stun gun). When they killed her too early to carry out the rest of their plan, their "fun" was gone and they panicked and realized they had to change their plan. I don't think they were prepared to change their plan. They had no backup. So things fell apart from there. Instead of getting rid of her body right away, they brought her back to the house (as in the original plan). They tried to dismember her with knives (as in the original plan), and discovered that wasn't going to work, so they had to buy a saw. Since they hadn't planned for her to die right away, they didn't have everything they needed to hide the crime (cleaning products, bags, cling wrap, etc.), so that meant they had to go shopping right away. All of these things they weren't prepared for dragged out the time they needed to hide their crime and her body, so everything took longer than they expected.

The police wanted to interview them, the police wanted to come to their house. Imagine the panic! What to do! What to do! So they get back in touch with SH's mom, leave their car at her house so police won't know they're home, do everything possible to avoid getting caught and put off the police coming to their home. But time caught up with them, they still had BW's body in their house and the police were insistent that they wanted to visit the next morning. NM calls friends, weaves his tall tale, and voila, body is gone and they figure the police will never figure out where the body is until they can move it within the next few days. But they get arrested and BW's body and the evidence is stashed in an acquaintance's shed. And we know the rest from there.

I think they spent weeks if not months to set up BW's disappearance to look like she ran away: created family friction, the post on FB, etc. This is one part of their plan that they continued after they killed her (telling AG and DG they heard her leave in a huff, posting on FB that she was missing and please keep an eye out for her, etc.). If they'd had the time they needed to dispose of her (perhaps in water), I think they would have done that. In fact, I don't think they expected to be arrested the day they let the police come to the house. I believe they truly thought they'd be collecting everything from the shed and moving it so no one would ever find her.

I think their motive was a combination of sexual desires and extreme jealousy/hatred. I think they wanted to do some horrible things to her, so while I hate to say it, I think it's better that they messed up their plan and she died earlier than later.

This entire situation is just so horrific and terribly sad. I hope that BW's family and loved ones find some kind of peace and justice when the trial is over. :rose: :rose:

That is all so feasible and believable I could actually imagine it coming from the mouth of the prosecutor himself!

 

[ColourPurple]

That's really interesting a I haven't read it before

Another thing strikes me ( although it may be meaningless ) in terms of motive.

It's interesting that Dad really describes a very very shy girl, BW

I am wondering why now?Why attack/kill/ things come to a head now? (There were opportunities before for NM, if it was sexual, she was still a pretty teen for years before her actual death.)

Is it her increasing confidence ( boyfriend, male friends, burgeoning woman - hood, anorexia under control) that's part of the catalyst? Building resentment in SH and sexual jealousy (Luke O etc) for NM.

I can't remember the poster's name who referred to SH's comments about intimate details of BW, padded bras, virginity etc.....sorry

If he/they really did have a thing for sweet sixteen year olds then they only had a few months before Becky was no longer sixteen.

 

[Tortoise]

Possible if the plan was to abduct and kill Becky. If there had been a plan to sexually assault her after abduction, presumably that would come to light as part of a PM, resulting in a murder investigation. If the plan was abduction & sexual assault, wouldn't it be more likely the disposal plan would have been something where she wasn't found, or, at least, wasn't found for some considerable time?

Well I did think about that, I suppose there is nothing to have stopped him using a condom, or assaulting her in some other way, and involving SH. anyway, doesn't bear thinking about. I wonder if he used contraception when he had his threesome.

One thing I'm sure about - this paranoid excuse for a man wouldn't have left his DNA at the scene.

 

[ColourPurple]

Interesting snippet which I dont remember being specifically tweeted ( I could have missed it of course ! ), which shows NM confirming the story for KD to tell JI, re him being thrown out by SH.


Mr Hammond asked: "You told Karl that if anybody asked you had an argument with Shauna and you were moving out for a few days?"

Matthews replied: "That was the cover story if we got pulled over."

Mr Hammond said: "You relied upon Karl to make sure that James understood that because he was your mate?"

Matthews replied: "Yes."

Mr Hammond said: "Everything was being done through Karl because he was your friend."

Matthews replied: "Yes."


http://www.independent.ie/world-new...s-watched-🤬🤬🤬🤬-daily-court-told-34149746.html

I think JI is going to get not guilty, looking at that and the judges instructions.

 

[Gigi-G]

That's really interesting a I haven't read it before

Another thing strikes me ( although it may be meaningless ) in terms of motive.

It's interesting that Dad really describes a very very shy girl, BW

I am wondering why now?Why attack/kill/ things come to a head now? (There were opportunities before for NM, if it was sexual, she was still a pretty teen for years before her actual death.)

Is it her increasing confidence ( boyfriend, male friends, burgeoning woman - hood, anorexia under control) that's part of the catalyst? Building resentment in SH and sexual jealousy (Luke O etc) for NM.

I can't remember the poster's name who referred to SH's comments about intimate details of BW, padded bras, virginity etc.....sorry

Gosh that's a hard one to answer.
Maybe NM was attracted to her for some time. Now those gangly limbs and stick thin body had transpired into a vision of beauty.
Maybe he'd had a crush on her for sometime.
Then again maybe NM thought she was easy game. To feed his n SH's fantasies.
16 being the legal age of consent. There wouldn't be an issue of underage. Etc etc.
BW was on their own doorstep. So to speak. Not like in the text messages...where they seen pretty 16 year olds in shops. I mean how for you explain a way to get 16 year old girls back to your home with out looking odd or suspicious.
BW was a ready made package. They just had to bundle her up and go!
Sorry if this sounds heartless. But thinking like a profiler.
The pivotal role in all of this was AG.
NM had a plan.
It just never went according to...

I do hope the Jurors make good their time of deliberation. For Becky ♡