GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #16

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Just caught up on the news. I think it was a fair sentence. The only way I'd expect it to be a lot higher would be if they'd known what they were hiding when they agreed to hide it and I'm satisfied neither of them did.

I was also thinking about NM's late appeal. I wonder if it was because SH needed him to appeal too to "back up" her appeal and had to ask him to. As their crimes are interlinked (especially the conspiracy charge)if she had appealed and he hadn't it would look like he was accepting that they were both involved and both guilty of what they were convicted of. That wouldn't be helpful for her appeal.

Still interested to see the reasons they've given for appealing.
 
Re the Appeals. Have they actually been granted leave to appeal or are they still waiting to be told if they will be allowed to appeal ?

On UK and Eire earlier today I saw something about their appeal ( or should that be appeals ) being heard at the end of February. But, as I understood it, they have not yet been told whether or not they can appeal ?

Also, NMs request to appeal has gone to a different place than SHs ( because he was late in requesting leave to appeal ). Not sure if that will go against him.
 
Just been nosing about on Facebook and Becky's aunt Sarah is not happy with KD and JP's sentences. She says they'll be out by the end of March.
 
Just been nosing about on Facebook and Becky's aunt Sarah is not happy with KD and JP's sentences. She says they'll be out by the end of March.

Oh dear, they're angry. I'm sure the pair of them are hated locally (and JP has already left Bristol with KD also planning to move when he's released - I wonder if they're still together?) but blaming them for Becky's death is misplaced I think.
 
Oh dear, they're angry. I'm sure the pair of them are hated locally (and JP has already left Bristol with KD also planning to move when he's released - I wonder if they're still together?) but blaming them for Becky's death is misplaced I think.

Yes. They were stupid to help with something they probably thought was criminal but I don't believe they thought it had anything to do with Becky.
 
Yes. They were stupid to help with something they probably thought was criminal but I don't believe they thought it had anything to do with Becky.

Not at first, anyway. I guess Nathan said "hey, got this stash at mine and the police are doing a routine search for Becky, can I bring it to yours for a few days?". They saw £££'s and thought why not, I can see how it happened.

I'd love to know at what exact point the truth started to dawn on them...
 
Not at first, anyway. I guess Nathan said "hey, got this stash at mine and the police are doing a routine search for Becky, can I bring it to yours for a few days?". They saw £££'s and thought why not, I can see how it happened.

I'd love to know at what exact point the truth started to dawn on them...

Did it, though?

I agree with your scenario, it's easy to see how they were drawn in and it's absolutely believable that the search for Becky was openly given as the reason for needing to hide the stash.

BUT I doubt they suspected the full horror of what was in the bags. Who would imagine that? In their position I can imagine being upset and confused when Matthews & Hoare were arrested, but I would probably be thinking there was some mistake. People do get arrested and released without charge.
 
Did it, though?

I agree with your scenario, it's easy to see how they were drawn in and it's absolutely believable that the search for Becky was openly given as the reason for needing to hide the stash.

BUT I doubt they suspected the full horror of what was in the bags. Who would imagine that? In their position I can imagine being upset and confused when Matthews & Hoare were arrested, but I would probably be thinking there was some mistake. People do get arrested and released without charge.

I don't know if it crossed their minds before the arrests though I can't recall who got arrested first. There must have been a moment of horror if NM got nicked first, I bet they still didn't believe it though. The horror of it, I'd have been physically sick finding out Becky was just yards away all along.
 
Worrying news for Becky's family as well as others. Not sure if this is an error in reporting or whether Shauna really has admitted something, perhaps as part of her appeal?

500 convicted killers could walk free from jail after Supreme Court rules that law of 'joint enterprise' has been wrongly interpreted by judges for THIRTY YEARS

More than 500 convicted killers could walk free after a murderer who cheered on a friend as he stabbed a former policeman through the heart was granted a shock appeal.

The Supreme Court - Britain's highest court - ruled the law on 'joint enterprise', used to convict murderers even if they did not strike the fatal blow, has been wrongly interpreted for more than 30 years.

Ameen Jogee, who encouraged Mohammed Hirsi to stab to death former policeman Paul Fyfe, 47, in 2011 has won a landmark appeal handing hope to hundreds of other killers.

Supreme Court president Lord Neuberger said today those who foresaw murder or egged on the killer are not automatically guilty of the same crime as directed by the law in 1984....

...The recent case of case of Shauna Hoare, convicted with her boyfriend Nathan Matthews of killing Bristol teenager Becky Watts, could be affected by the ruling.

She claims she knew Matthews wanted to kidnap Becky to have sex with her but was not with him when he throttled her, although she was in the house.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rise-wrongly-interpreted-judges-30-years.html
 
I remember our discussions on here re JE and how it was imminent that it was going to be reviewed.

I sincerely hope SH does not get any kind of reduced sentence on the back of it. I think , because she was convicted of the lesser charge of manslaughter, rather than the same charge as NM ( murder ) then it could be that she would not be eligible for any change of sentence.

Nevertheless, a worrying time for Becky's family and what an awful day for it to be in the news, one day before the anniversary of Becky's murder.
 
Bit more info from The Guardian. They list Becky's case as one of the examples of cases that could be affected by the ruling.(And list a couple of cases that won't be affected too)

The case of Shauna Hoare, who was convicted of killing Bristol teenager Becky Watts, could be affected by Thursday’s supreme court ruling. During the trial of Hoare and her partner, Nathan Matthews, the judge and legal teams were open to the idea that if the supreme court judgment came before the jury reached its verdicts it could have a dramatic impact on the case.

The trial judge, Mr Justice Dingemans, specifically asked barristers to keep abreast of developments at the supreme court. Matthews was accused of physically killing Watts and was eventually found guilty of murder. The prosecution case was that Hoare was in the house at the time and was involved in a plot to kidnap Becky, 16, to fulfil her and Matthews’s fantasy of having sex with a petite teenage girl. Even ahead of the supreme court judgment, Matthews and Hoare had launched appeals against their convictions and sentences.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/feb/18/joint-enterprise-historic-cases-supreme-court-ruling
 
One year on ....... remembering Becky and special thoughts for all her family and friends today
 
It's worth reading the whole judgement:

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2016/8.html

" If a person is a party to a violent attack on another, without an intent to assist in the causing of death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death, he will be not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. So also if he participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death in fact results: R v Church [1965] 1 QB 59, approved in Director of Public Prosecutions v Newbury [1977] AC 500 and very recently re-affirmed in R v F (J) & E (N) [2015] EWCA Crim 351; [2015] 2 Cr App R 5. The test is objective. As the Court of Appeal held in Reid, if a person goes out with armed companions to cause harm to another, any reasonable person would recognise that there is not only a risk of harm, but a risk of the violence escalating to the point at which serious harm or death may result. Cases in which D2 intends some harm falling short of grievous bodily harm are a fortiori, but manslaughter is not limited to these." para 96.

"The effect of putting the law right is not to render invalid all convictions which were arrived at over many years by faithfully applying the law as laid down in Chan Wing-Siu and in Powell and English. The error identified, of equating foresight with intent to assist rather than treating the first as evidence of the second, is important as a matter of legal principle, but it does not follow that it will have been important on the facts to the outcome of the trial or to the safety of the conviction. para 100"

"We regard that submission as hopeless. The jury’s verdict means that it was sure, at the very least, that the appellant knew that Hirsi had the knife and appreciated that he might use it to cause really serious harm. In returning to the house, after 2.00 am, in the circumstances which we have summarised, the appellant and Hirsi were clearly intent on some form of violent confrontation. The appellant was brandishing a bottle, striking the car and shouting encouragement to his co-defendant at the scene. There was a case fit to go to the jury that he had the mens rea for murder. At a minimum, he was party to a violent adventure carrying the plain objective risk of some harm to a person and which resulted in death; he was therefore guilty of manslaughter at least. The choice of disposal is whether to quash the appellant’s conviction for murder and order a re-trial or whether to quash his conviction for murder and substitute a conviction for manslaughter. We invite the parties’ written submissions on that question." para 107

The Supreme court provides a press summary:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2015-0015-press-summary.pdf

The court makes clear what the present cases do not decide. First, they do not affect the law that a person who joins in a crime which any reasonable person would realise involves a risk of harm, and death results, is guilty at least of manslaughter. Manslaughter cases can vary in their gravity, but may be very serious and the maximum sentence is life imprisonment. Secondly, they do not affect the rule that a person who intentionally encourages or assists the commission of a crime is as guilty as the person who physically commits it. Thirdly, they do not alter the fact that it is open to a jury to infer intentional encouragement or assistance, for example, from weight of numbers in a combined attack, whether more or less spontaneous or planned, or from knowledge that weapons are being carried. It is a commonplace for juries to have to decide what inferences they can properly draw about intention from an accused person’s behaviour and what he knew.

SH was convicted of conspiracy to kidnap, and given that, that she was convicted of manslaughter rather than murder would have been the correct outcome under this new ruling. Whatever she may or may not now be saying, the Court of Appeal rarely goes behind jury verdicts, on findings of fact, unless they're clearly irrational, or there was some kind of major problem with the conduct of the trial, which might include a relevant misdirection as to law.

On a side note, if what the Mail is saying is true, then it's especially disappointing that NM wasn't given a whole life tarriff, as it confirms there was a trifecta of intention to kidnap, sexual motivation and (on a sensible definition) sadism.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_-_mandatory_life_sentences_in_murder_cases/#an05
 
Becky Watts murder: Schoolgirl's mum reveals 'warning' signs a year on from killing as she releases unseen photos

MAIN-becky.jpg

Tragic: Becky Watts is pictured, left and right, in new photos released by her mother, Tanya, today on the one-year anniversary of her murder

The mother of Becky Watts has broken her silence on the anniversary of her daughter's brutal murder , revealing how she failed to pick up on 'warning signs'.

Tanya Watts, 48, spoke publicly today for the first time since Becky's death at the hands of her older stepbrother and his girlfriend on February 19 last year.
 
It's worth reading the whole judgement:

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2016/8.html



The Supreme court provides a press summary:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2015-0015-press-summary.pdf



SH was convicted of conspiracy to kidnap, and given that, that she was convicted of manslaughter rather than murder would have been the correct outcome under this new ruling. Whatever she may or may not now be saying, the Court of Appeal rarely goes behind jury verdicts, on findings of fact, unless they're clearly irrational, or there was some kind of major problem with the conduct of the trial, which might include a relevant misdirection as to law.

Paragraph 96 has an exception though detailed in paragraph 97 that I think SH could use (but I think it would have to mean her admitting to kidnap)

"96. If a person is a party to a violent attack on another, without an intent to assist in the causing of death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death, he will be not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. So also if he participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death in fact results: R v Church [1965] 1 QB 59, approved in Director of Public Prosecutions v Newbury [1977] AC 500 and very recently re-affirmed in R v F (J) & E (N) [2015] EWCA Crim 351; [2015] 2 Cr App R 5. The test is objective. As the Court of Appeal held in Reid, if a person goes out with armed companions to cause harm to another, any reasonable person would recognise that there is not only a risk of harm, but a risk of the violence escalating to the point at which serious harm or death may result. Cases in which D2 intends some harm falling short of grievous bodily harm are a fortiori, but manslaughter is not limited to these.

97. The qualification to this (recognised in Wesley Smith, Anderson and Morris and Reid) is that it is possible for death to be caused by some overwhelming supervening act by the perpetrator which nobody in the defendant’s shoes could have contemplated might happen and is of such a character as to relegate his acts to history; in that case the defendant will bear no criminal responsibility for the death."
http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2016/8.html

In the Anderson and Morris case , M successfully appealed against his original manslaughter conviction. It was ruled that in joint enterprise if one person goes beyond what was agreed, the other can't be held responsible for the consequences of that additional act.

"M had a fight on the street with W (the victim) because W had just tried to strangle Mrs A. When A arrived and learnt what had happened, he went with M in a car to find W. When W was found, there was a fight in the street. A was seen punching W, with M standing behind A, apparently not taking any definite part in the fight. A then stabbed W to death. M denied knowing that A had a knife. M was convicted of manslaughter and appealed.

It was held by the Court of Appeal that where two persons embark on a joint enterprise, each is liable criminally for acts done in pursuance of the joint enterprise, including unusual consequences; but if one of them goes beyond what has been tacitly agreed as part of the joint enterprise, the other is not liable for the consequence of the unauthorised act. M's conviction was quashed."


www.lawteacher.net/cases/criminal-law/participation-cases.php#ixzz40kwwJWW0

Surely SH could use the same argument. She could say that they agreed to kidnap Becky to teach her a lesson (or for another reason) and planned to return her safely and that NM then acted in a way that wasn't agreed before hand (an unauthorised act, some "overwhelming supervening act" which nobody in her shoes "could have contemplated might happen") and that as a result of that act Becky died.
 
Paragraph 96 has an exception though detailed in paragraph 97 that I think SH could use (but I think it would have to mean her admitting to kidnap)

"96. If a person is a party to a violent attack on another, without an intent to assist in the causing of death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death, he will be not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. So also if he participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death in fact results: R v Church [1965] 1 QB 59, approved in Director of Public Prosecutions v Newbury [1977] AC 500 and very recently re-affirmed in R v F (J) & E (N) [2015] EWCA Crim 351; [2015] 2 Cr App R 5. The test is objective. As the Court of Appeal held in Reid, if a person goes out with armed companions to cause harm to another, any reasonable person would recognise that there is not only a risk of harm, but a risk of the violence escalating to the point at which serious harm or death may result. Cases in which D2 intends some harm falling short of grievous bodily harm are a fortiori, but manslaughter is not limited to these.

97. The qualification to this (recognised in Wesley Smith, Anderson and Morris and Reid) is that it is possible for death to be caused by some overwhelming supervening act by the perpetrator which nobody in the defendant’s shoes could have contemplated might happen and is of such a character as to relegate his acts to history; in that case the defendant will bear no criminal responsibility for the death."
http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2016/8.html

In the Anderson and Morris case , M successfully appealed against his original manslaughter conviction. It was ruled that in joint enterprise if one person goes beyond what was agreed, the other can't be held responsible for the consequences of that additional act.

"M had a fight on the street with W (the victim) because W had just tried to strangle Mrs A. When A arrived and learnt what had happened, he went with M in a car to find W. When W was found, there was a fight in the street. A was seen punching W, with M standing behind A, apparently not taking any definite part in the fight. A then stabbed W to death. M denied knowing that A had a knife. M was convicted of manslaughter and appealed.

It was held by the Court of Appeal that where two persons embark on a joint enterprise, each is liable criminally for acts done in pursuance of the joint enterprise, including unusual consequences; but if one of them goes beyond what has been tacitly agreed as part of the joint enterprise, the other is not liable for the consequence of the unauthorised act. M's conviction was quashed."


www.lawteacher.net/cases/criminal-law/participation-cases.php#ixzz40kwwJWW0

Surely SH could use the same argument. She could say that they agreed to kidnap Becky to teach her a lesson (or for another reason) and planned to return her safely and that NM then acted in a way that wasn't agreed before hand (an unauthorised act, some "overwhelming supervening act" which nobody in her shoes "could have contemplated might happen") and that as a result of that act Becky died.

There is a note at the end of the example you've posted, which imo, is extremely important.

Note: The use of the knife was not agreed upon. However, if W had died from a punch thrown by A, M would have been an accomplice to manslaughter.

http://www.lawteacher.net/cases/criminal-law/participation-cases.php#ixzz40mXo2iC6


If SH agreed to the kidnapping and using whatever means to subdue Becky (eg: stun guns, kicks and punches) imo, the manslaughter charge still holds. There was still a high risk that Becky could die.
 
There is a note at the end of the example you've posted, which imo, is extremely important.

Note: The use of the knife was not agreed upon. However, if W had died from a punch thrown by A, M would have been an accomplice to manslaughter.

http://www.lawteacher.net/cases/criminal-law/participation-cases.php#ixzz40mXo2iC6


If SH agreed to the kidnapping and using whatever means to subdue Becky (eg: stun guns, kicks and punches) imo, the manslaughter charge still holds. There was still a high risk that Becky could die.

There is a note at the end of the example you've posted, which imo, is extremely important.


Note: The use of the knife was not agreed upon. However, if W had died from a punch thrown by A, M would have been an accomplice to manslaughter.


http://www.lawteacher.net/cases/criminal-law/participation-cases.php#ixzz40mXo2iC6




If SH agreed to the kidnapping and using whatever means to subdue Becky (eg: stun guns, kicks and punches) imo, the manslaughter charge still holds. There was still a high risk that Becky could die.




I agree that in that case the "overwhelming supervening act by the perpetrator which nobody in the defendant’s shoes could have contemplated might happen" is the fact that A used a gun that M didnt know he had but it doesn't mean it has to be something like a gun to fit into that category. SH just needs to claim that NM did something outside what they agreed, something that she couldn't have predicted, that resulted in Becky's death. Had the screwdriver wounds to Beckys' neck been the cause of death I guess she could have said that she didn't know he had a screwdriver. With suffocation as the cause of death I agree it's going to be harder to come up with an example of some "overwhelming supervening act" that she couldn't have predicted but I can't rule out that her lawyer might come up with something. Maybe she's going to deny knowing about the stun gun and argue that that incapicitated Becky to the point where NM was able to suffocate her. Maybe she'll say she didn't agree to using "whatever means" to subdue Becky. I just don't feel confident that she(or her lawyer) won't come up with a plausible story but it does look to me as if if to that she'd have to admit to the kidnap.


If she was cleared of manslaughter I assume her convictions for kidnap, perverting the course of justice, preventing a lawful burial and possessing a stun gun would stand(rather than there being a complete retrial?). Worse case scenario what are we looking at sentence wise , without the manslaughter charge?
 
Wow, this is new information! I clicked on the link and I couldn't find that sentence. Has SH really admitted she knew about a kidnap plan?
Hmmm don't know how much I trust the Daily Fail to be accurate but IF that's what she's now saying RATHER THAN the Daily Mail just inferring that from her being found guilty then that's interesting ...

ETA - Actually, after thinking about it ... I dont think Shauna has 'confessed' to that much at all cause if she had, I'm pretty sure they'd have had it on the front pages?
 
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