GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #7

[e-sherlockholmes]

I notice that the power saw he bought has a laser guideline for accuracy, and also a dust extractor.

I'm thinking it wouldn't spew "stuff" everywhere, these modern tools don't. and if a bag was fitted to the dust extractor

that would collect the mess.

There is no easy way to say these things.

I honestly doubt the suspects used the circular saw much. They may have purchased it. They might have tried, and then my theory is they realized it was unworkable and just resumed using knives.

Anyone who's done wood working knows circular saws are loud. You need hearing protection when using it safely. Again, lends to the suggestion that neighbors and most certainly the "innocent" female suspect should have heard it when used. The obnoxious loudness is actually a desirable side effect of these saws, because it alerts bystanders a construction power tool is being used, as is the byproduct of the motor being loud due to the cooling fans used to cool the motor.

There is also so much raw power with these things. You need two hands to hold it otherwise there can be serious kickback. The centrifugal force and tangential velocity developed in the spinning blade will also throw things everywhere (in this case tissue and bone).

Those saw blades are also designed for cutting wood, not tissue/bone. The closest it is good for cutting is maybe cutting the bone. But even then, it will have serious kickback if not feeding the cut into the hard bone slowly (like cutting some hardwoods).

Not to mention, these circular saws have a blade guard that is designed for assisting with cutting wooden boards. They spring load back to cover most of the blade as a safety measure. You can hold the blade guard back, but that involves experience with the tools. Is the suspect totally green with home improvement?

There is also a shoe for the circular saw that will impede working around random rough terrain of a body, since the circular saw is designed to rest on flat surfaces using the shoe. Also, the maximum depth of cut of even standard variety 7-1/4" diameter blades is only good for around 3" maximum depth of cut. The body is a lot larger than 3" depth of cut. You can cut around on both sides, allowing 6" diameter cuts. Tissue is squishy so you can probably compress onto it to cut deeper, but I would imagine a circular saw has serious problems cutting the thigh, for example. Its just not designed for the purpose.

If someone is familiar with the autopsy details, which parts of the body actually involved a severed bone? That is probably the only cases where the circular saw is used.

 

[pinklilies]

I hope the suspects get charged to the full extent of the law and serve their full sentence.

In the grand scheme, I guess the legal system and criminal punishment is a little lenient in the UK. There are other worrisome cases that springs to mind: James Bulger's murderers out so soon and given new IDs multiple times (allowing reoffense to occur), Yorkshire ripper is now out, etc.

This is up to the legal system, but suppose the female suspect in this case may or may not be charged. What is to stop the courts from giving her a new ID and benefit of a publication ban, similar to what had happened in other high profile cases in the past, as soon as she is released from prison or walks out the court if charges don't stick right now? I guess that is the worry. I suppose people recognize her face and people will look after themselves that way.

Cannot see SH being given a new identity if she was to be found not guilty. Why would she?
The Bulger case you have mentioned, they were very young children themselves when they committed the crime hence, rightly or wrongly, they got the new identities.
The Yorkshire Ripper is not out as a free man, he was being taken under police guard to an eye clinic. He is serving 20 life sentences, he's no chance of ever being released.
But I agree the UK often seems lenient in length of jail sentences in comparison to other countries.

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

I have to disagree in part. Hoarders are not necessarily disorganised, just because their hoarded house may look disorganised to you or me, does not make it so. For many, organising can be a part of the disorder.

Also, can you explain what you consider to be disorganised about their (social media?) profiles?

The act of hoarding, i.e. wishing to keep everything, does not in and of itself suggest disorganization, since the definition only lends to the idea that someone likes to keep everything. But one could be an unorganized hoarder, as most hoarders are where their house is a total mess.

Also, judging by how the suspects carried through with the multiple trips for purchasing of items for the disposal of the body, after the murder had already occurred, lends itself to clues about their organization skills. They seem very unorganized to me. It will not surprise me if they are like this in other aspects of life, such as in their careers, etc.

I think most will agree these suspects are hoarders and disorganized, as is clearly evident by the state and filth of their house.

I mean a criminal profile.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Look how fanatic and obsessive he/they were about wrapping her remains. So too, with bathroom cleanup imo:

<snip>

She said: “There were eight parts that had been individually wrapped in cling film, thick blue plastic bags and for some of the body parts other items, including three different types of tape, Asda carrier bags and other items, and for the torso two bathroom mats and a shower curtain.

<snip>


Dr Cook said: “Wrapping the body up so tightly in multiple layers of plastic and cling film had the effect of preserving the body.”

She said some of the body parts had been packed with table salt.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-suffered-40-injuries-6635610

My questions are, how does NM know so much about dismemberment and preserving a body? Did he cover the whole bathroom from ceiling to floor with plastic? Did he get outside help? Was the body initially in the bathroom and taken off site (a garage) and dismembered there, brought back to the house, then KD took packages to his place?
This sounds outlandish, but could NM have links to the underworld, which is where he was getting the £5,000 from?

 

[epiphany]

WARNING: May be too graphic for some


Details from testimony of Professor of Materials & Forensic Engineering, SH:


She said that, due to the maximum depth of the saw blade being 55mm when it was set at 90 degrees, a knife would have been needed to cut through the flesh of the body before the saw was used to dismember it through bone into eight pieces...

<snip>

"However, it would be easier if more than one person was involved, for example to hold the limbs into position for somebody else to cut through.

"Otherwise the person would have to hold or fix the limbs in order to use the saw two-handed."

The professor said a lack of false start cuts on some limbs indicated the cutter was either helped or was careful and methodical.

She said the cutting would cause dust and debris which you would expect to find in the area, unless it had been cleaned very carefully.

She also said if the saw was used in a bath tub she would have expected the tub to be damaged by the saw, unless it was used carefully.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...ails-Becky-s/story-28012157-detail/story.html


Sarah Hainsworth, professor of material and forensic engineering at the University of Leicester, gave detailed evidence about dismemberment.

<snip>

"However, it would be easier to conduct a dismemberment such as the one that I have seen if more than one person was involved," she added.

A lack of "false cuts" - areas that were not fully sawed through - suggest Becky's dismemberment was "very careful and methodical".

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...cky_Watts__had_threesome_with_another_woman_/

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Imo, it seems it was possible for NM to carry out the dismemberment in the bathroom. As others have suggested, maybe he cleared the whole bathroom out, lined every bit of surface, from ceiling to floor with plastic, and was extremely careful carrying out this gruesome act. SH may have assisted him, easier for him if she did, but unless NM admits SH helped, it will never be proven without a doubt.

The drain of the bath may have been plugged up so no debris went down the drain. Any waste was disposed of by some other means? Bleach used to clean all surfaces including the bathtub, and NM continuously poured drain cleaner, bleach down the drain over several days to dissolve any blood or debris caught up in drain.
Afterwards he returned the items he hoarded in bathroom like it was before.


These are pictures of the circular saw. It would have been fairly difficult for one person to handle, looks heavy and cumbersome to use with one hand, practically impossible.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015...emonstration_of_a_saw_-m-26_1445263472147.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/19/16/2D8FAF5600000578-3279005-image-m-29_1445268073572.jpg

More on NM's controlling ways told by witness, friend of SH-


The woman said Matthews was controlling of Hoare, who did not seem to have access to any of her own money.
'I bought some pasties from Aldi, I offered her one and he moaned that she couldn't have it because she was on a diet and he forbid her from eating it,' she told jurors.
'I have seen him talk to her badly, saying "Shut the f*** up you t***" - he said that a few times,' she said.
Later, the woman told police the couple's relationship was 'all right' but described Matthews's 'paranoia'.
'He was paranoid that people would break into his house, he was paranoid about Shauna, I wasn't sure about what but he didn't like her going out without him,' she said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-Nathan-Matthews-controlling-girlfriend.html

 

[Hexenb]

Thanks for that not see the pictures of the saw before, I can't imagine NM holding it and using it without help too big and bulky and too heavy!

 

[Crazy Mama]

Thanks for that not see the pictures of the saw before, I can't imagine NM holding it and using it without help too big and bulky and too heavy!

I agree. This is all too much crazy for me. BUT, I believe he had an extra set of hands other than SH. There is a missing party here.

 

[Tortoise]

Imo, it seems it was possible for NM to carry out the dismemberment in the bathroom. As others have suggested, maybe he cleared the whole bathroom out, lined every bit of surface, from ceiling to floor with plastic, and was extremely careful carrying out this gruesome act. SH may have assisted him, easier for him if she did, but unless NM admits SH helped, it will never be proven without a doubt.

<snipped>

I didn't make it clear in my post up thread the relevance of SH phoning her step-dad and asking him to collude with her in lying about their plans for the evening, when the police asked to search their house. It proves 100% in my mind that she knew exactly what was in the house because she knew the police were searching for Becky. The van collection of Becky's body parts took place in the middle of that night.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I didn't make it clear in my post up thread the relevance of SH phoning her step-dad and asking him to collude with her in lying about their plans for the evening, when the police asked to search their house. It proves 100% in my mind that she knew exactly what was in the house because she knew the police were searching for Becky. The van collection of Becky's body parts took place in the middle of that night.

I actually wasn't aware that SH's step-dad lied for her. I hope he's a witness and can explain his actions.

I agree with you about SH. I don't believe that NM would consider SH's feelings or complaints about helping with the grisly dismemberment, so if he wants her there, she's there. But can it be proven?

 

[Tortoise]

I actually wasn't aware that SH's step-dad lied for her. I hope he's a witness and can explain his actions.

I agree with you about SH. I don't believe that NM would consider SH's feelings or complaints about helping with the grisly dismemberment, so if he wants her there, she's there. But can it be proven?

He's already given evidence. He said SH phoned him and said if anyone phones for us tell them we've got plans for tonight that we can't cancel (or something similar). He said to the court that they didn't go out that evening, they stayed in.

About the dismemberment. I think SH helped, too difficult for one inexperienced person acting alone. Hell I can't even cut through a piece of thin chicken bone for my cat cleanly. Not that I use a power saw mind.

I think it was probably more of a need to evade being caught for the crime of killing Becky that would have spurred both of them on with the task of dismemberment, rather than pressure being exerted by NM over SH. I really do think SH had a part in the killing.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I don't know if anyone else feels the same but, nothing about this case is adding up to me. I seems like there is a rather large piece of the puzzle that we just aren't seeing right now. From Nathan's 'kidnap' story which just seems so entirely implausible, to Shauna saying she was oblivious to everything, to the fact that the bathroom had literally no trace of DNA to be found and yet no sheeting or surface coverings were found with the rest of the disposal paraphernalia & body to indicate how they managed such a feat? Something is off.

I think dismemberment did take place in the bathroom, haha, I keep changing my mind. The forensics witness gave the court her findings, she wasn't asked questions by the barristers, surely that's still to come.
Questions like how might a 'person' remove evidence of the body being in the bath..... no trace of blood or dna... would there be blood spatter etc. The jury needs answers otherwise they're in the dark.


Understanding Bleach And Evidence

Unfortunately, even advanced Forensic Techniques can be challenged by the use of a common kind of bleach found in many homes.

Chlorine bleaches can remove a Bloodstain to the naked eye but fortunately, forensics experts can use the application of substances such as luminol or phenolphthalein to show that haemoglobin is present. In fact, even if the shady criminal washed a bloodstained item of clothing 10 times, these chemicals could still reveal blood.

With oxygen bleach, the bleach has an oxidising agent, which could be a substance such as hydrogen peroxide. In these instances, haemoglobin is completely removed and can't later be detected.

As expected, this presents a unique challenge for forensic scientists. Not only that, but it can significantly compromise an investigation and may mean that Evidence is not properly investigated and used in a trial.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html

 

[Clio]

Here is a timeline covering the period in which the body dismemberment and disposal must have taken place. It is based on testimony given so far. Largely taken from UK & Eire site. I have changed names to initials.

Fri February 20: 12.20pm - NM buys two bottles of drain cleaner from the Rajani superstore in Bristol.
12.51pm - NM purchases a MacAllister circular power saw, face masks, gloves and goggles from B&Q in Horfield, Bristol.
2.18pm SH texts NM that memory cards and PS4 stickers have arrived
3.10pm - SH texts NM: 'What time do you finish work LOL? Hugs and kisses'.
4pm - Becky's father reports the teenager missing to police.
5:30pm SH puts message on FB &#8220;Hi, can you keep an eye out for Becky Watts and if you see her message me because she is missing.&#8221;
6.25pm - Police arrive at Becky's home and speak to Mr and Mrs G, NM and SH. The couple claim they heard Becky leave the previous morning.
8.45pm - A Chinese takeaway is ordered to Cotton Mill Lane.
9pm - A device of NM and SH searches 'Do you want to hide a body?' on YouTube.

Sat February 21: NM and SH go to Asda in Bedminster and buy black bags, rubble sacks, rubber gloves, bleach and three rolls of cling film. They purchase £20 of electricity from a local shop.

Sun February 22: NM and SH buy black rubble sacks, tape and a sponge from a 99p store and a Wilko at the Broadmead shopping centre in Bristol city centre, then tape and cling film at Sainsbury's in Brislington.

Mon February 23: Police attempt to enter Cotton Mill Lane but no one answers the door.
4.38pm - A mobile phone belonging to SH and NM searches for 'Find Becky Watts' on Google.
4.40pm - SH rings her estranged mother, LD, and stepfather KS and arranges to visit their home in Wilton Close, Southmead, arriving about 30-40 minutes after the call.
6pm - Detectives return to Cotton Mill Lane but NM and SH are not at home. They speak to the pair at Wilton Close.
SH agrees police can search their home the following day.
Tues February 24: NM/SH leave Wilton Close in the early hours and were given a lift home by a friend.
In the early hours, KD and JI borrow a van from their work in Filton.
1.10am KD got a message from JP saying: "Ah ok you going to hide it for him? We could do with the money. lol. xxxx."
1.18am JP sent another which said: "Cool, that's a deposit on the house. lol."
2.19am - CCTV shows a van moving between Cotton Mill Lane and Barton Court, with light coming on by the garden shed.
2.31am - The white van is seen heading back towards JI and KD's work in Filton
9:36am NM texts AG saying "Hi, just thought I would update you, police have searched S's house and obviously found nothing. Hope you are all managing as best as possible, I will see you tomorrow."

 

[Tortoise]

The air-borne blood on the doorframe(s) stands out for me. I think Becky struggled to escape to another room or to get away, not that she was forcibly removed from her room or pinned down. How does one person with a hand over Becky's airways stop her from kicking and keep her in one place? It takes about 5 minutes I've read for suffocation to be effected, and in that time she would have been fighting for survival.

 

[sar2them1984]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-murder-trial-stepbrother-6591234

So I'd forgotten that NM stated he took a large bag with him in which he bundled Becky..I don't believe that this has been talked abut yet. Have they not found the bag or was it fiction?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-murder-trial-stepbrother-6591234

So I'd forgotten that NM stated he took a large bag with him in which he bundled Becky..I don't believe that this has been talked abut yet. Have they not found the bag or was it fiction?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

If Becky was in a bag when she was suffocated, there would be no airborne blood in the landing area IMO.

 

[sar2them1984]

Here is a timeline covering the period in which the body dismemberment and disposal must have taken place. It is based on testimony given so far. Largely taken from UK & Eire site. I have changed names to initials.

Fri February 20: 12.20pm - NM buys two bottles of drain cleaner from the Rajani superstore in Bristol.
12.51pm - NM purchases a MacAllister circular power saw, face masks, gloves and goggles from B&Q in Horfield, Bristol.
2.18pm SH texts NM that memory cards and PS4 stickers have arrived
3.10pm - SH texts NM: 'What time do you finish work LOL? Hugs and kisses'.
4pm - Becky's father reports the teenager missing to police.
5:30pm SH puts message on FB “Hi, can you keep an eye out for Becky Watts and if you see her message me because she is missing.”
6.25pm - Police arrive at Becky's home and speak to Mr and Mrs G, NM and SH. The couple claim they heard Becky leave the previous morning.
8.45pm - A Chinese takeaway is ordered to Cotton Mill Lane.
9pm - A device of NM and SH searches 'Do you want to hide a body?' on YouTube.

Sat February 21: NM and SH go to Asda in Bedminster and buy black bags, rubble sacks, rubber gloves, bleach and three rolls of cling film. They purchase £20 of electricity from a local shop.

Sun February 22: NM and SH buy black rubble sacks, tape and a sponge from a 99p store and a Wilko at the Broadmead shopping centre in Bristol city centre, then tape and cling film at Sainsbury's in Brislington.

Mon February 23: Police attempt to enter Cotton Mill Lane but no one answers the door.
4.38pm - A mobile phone belonging to SH and NM searches for 'Find Becky Watts' on Google.
4.40pm - SH rings her estranged mother, LD, and stepfather KS and arranges to visit their home in Wilton Close, Southmead, arriving about 30-40 minutes after the call.
6pm - Detectives return to Cotton Mill Lane but NM and SH are not at home. They speak to the pair at Wilton Close.
SH agrees police can search their home the following day.
Tues February 24: NM/SH leave Wilton Close in the early hours and were given a lift home by a friend.
In the early hours, KD and JI borrow a van from their work in Filton.
1.10am KD got a message from JP saying: "Ah ok you going to hide it for him? We could do with the money. lol. xxxx."
1.18am JP sent another which said: "Cool, that's a deposit on the house. lol."
2.19am - CCTV shows a van moving between Cotton Mill Lane and Barton Court, with light coming on by the garden shed.
2.31am - The white van is seen heading back towards JI and KD's work in Filton
9:36am NM texts AG saying "Hi, just thought I would update you, police have searched Shauna's house and obviously found nothing. Hope you are all managing as best as possible, I will see you tomorrow."

I've not seen the exchange of texts between JP/KD before. Where did you find those?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

Here is a timeline covering the period in which the body dismemberment and disposal must have taken place. It is based on testimony given so far. Largely taken from UK & Eire site. I have changed names to initials.

<snipped>
Tues February 24:
1.10am KD got a message from JP saying: "Ah ok you going to hide it for him? We could do with the money. lol. xxxx."
1.18am JP sent another which said: "Cool, that's a deposit on the house. lol."

thank you so much for this. had been planning on doing one myself.

purchase of electricity for the power saw no doubt.

the messages from JP I hadn't seen before. Were the police not able to recover the messages she was replying to?

 

[Clio]

The air-borne blood on the doorframe(s) stands out for me. I think Becky struggled to escape to another room or to get away, not that she was forcibly removed from her room or pinned down. How does one person with a hand over Becky's airways stop her from kicking and keep her in one place? It takes about 5 minutes I've read for suffocation to be effected, and in that time she would have been fighting for survival.

I wondered where NM's defence was going yesterday with suggestions that the screwdriver wound to the neck was inflicted before death. Here is the previous statement from the pathologist.

An otherwise healthy and conscious individual cannot be suffocated with ease, it is very difficult, and a person will struggle when the mouth and nose are obstructed.

The bruising was all blunt trauma. Both positions of bruising around the back of the head and the back, are consistent with somebody who is face up with their airways obstructed trying to fight off that obstruction

http://www.itv.com/news/west/update...times-after-she-died-graphic-content-warning/

 

[Tortoise]

I wondered where NM's defence was going yesterday with suggestions that the screwdriver wound to the neck was inflicted before death. Here is the previous statement from the pathologist.



http://www.itv.com/news/west/update...times-after-she-died-graphic-content-warning/

he could have got her pinned down on the floor after she got out of the room.

about the bleeding, I thought all the injuries, except cuts inside the mouth, were bruises. the blood spots may indicate otherwise?