GUILTY UK - Rolf Harris for molesting underage girls, child 🤬🤬🤬🤬, 2013

  • #341
  • #342
A junior barrister takes over from defense counsel Woodley, who was admitted to hospital, and makes the closing statement:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-case-court-told/story-fni0xs63-1226956933351

I hope to high heavens that kid pointed out *all* of the glaring problems with the four accuser's various stories.

Because taking those into account, there's bugger-all evidence of child molestation.

And shaky, very shaky evidence that ANY of them are telling the truth.
 
  • #343
Notice how NO media outlets so far have recapped the *problems* with the accuser's stories, as described by the defense? They're happy to speak in great detail about far lesser problems regarding the prosecution's case. But where's in the in-depth description of what was found lacking in the accuser's statements? Not there! It gets a two-line gloss-over!

Very in keeping with the general biased spin on the case throughout.

Compare this with the extremely detailed coverage and constant recaps of the accusations themselves.


eta: Oh, I found one with a little bit of detail the media has *amazingly* not reported on at all so far:

Mr Ray criticised many of the six women who have given supporting evidence that Harris harassed them in Australia, New Zealand and Malta.

He pointed out that some had kept photographs of themselves with the star.

In one case a mother who claimed Harris assaulted her daughter and then herself subsequently put a cartoon the artist had drawn on her daughter's bedroom door.

What mother would do that if she had just been sexually abused, Mr Ray asked the jury.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-17/rolf-harris-trial-defence-sums-up-case/5528312

And another, nothing new though:

Mr Ray said Australian complainant Tonya Lee, who claimed Harris had abused her at age 14 on a youth theatre tour of the UK, had enjoyed the fame that her story had brought her.

But the jury should note "the ease with which she has lied in the past Â… lied well and convincingly", even to police, and the way her "story has evolved and changed depending on whom she was talking to".

"She has shifted her account with apparent ease to gloss over the problems she has encountered," Mr Ray said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/rolf-ha...-over-guilt-20140616-3a905.html#ixzz34rY66luU
 
  • #344
Before the jury comes back with a verdict, here’s my own summary of the evidence, with both pros and cons listed for each complainant’s case:

1. Leigh Park Lady
Claims Rolf molested her at an event in Leigh Park, age ‘7 or 8’. Gradually pinpoints the year at 1975, somewhere around July.

PROS:
-- Two witnesses say they recall Rolf appearing in Leigh Park in the 70’s, listing various other celebrities who also appeared.

CONS:
-- Yewtree and local cops knocked themselves out trying to find record of this event, and failed to find any at all.

-- The witnesses fail to remember that two of the celebrities they mentioned in conjunction with Rolf (Diana Dors and Sid James) appeared in Leigh Park anywhere between 6-10 years apart, from 1963 to the “seventies”, and neither of them at the same venue Rolf is claimed to have been at. So how they can their testimony shore up the complainant’s story at all?

-- Rolf was in Australia for several weeks, until at *least* the 8th of August that year.


2. Cambridge Lady
Claims Rolf molested her, age ’13 or 14’ (or ’14 or 15’, depending on which version you read) at an event in Cambridge in 1975.

PROS:
-- Despite swearing he was never there at all until recently, Rolf was indeed proved to have attended at an event in Cambridge in 1978.

-- The video evidence shows landmarks that match the complainant’s description of the event.

CONS:
-- 1978 is *three years* later than 1975. This puts the complainant closer to 17 than 14. We are asked to believe that the complainant somehow mistook her 14 y-o self for her 17 y-o self.


3. Tonya Lee
Claims Rolf molested her twice during a dinner event at a pub in England, when she was 14.

PROS:

- Rolf and the complainant were certainly both at this event.

CONS:

-- Tonya Lee has *quite visibly* changed her story several times according to changing details in the case presented.

-- Fudged details of the attack in a TV interview.

-- Lied to the police twice, regarding substantial payments she’s gotten for her story from the media.


4: Bindi’s Friend
Claims Rolf groomed and molested her from age 13 , and continued to force her to periodically have non-consensual sex with him until age 29.

PROS:
-- Rolf admits having an affair that started when BF was 18. Letter proves the affair happened.

-- Rolf admits finding complainant ‘attractive’ in a bikini, age 13.

-- Rolf admits to several sexual encounters, one of these while sitting *next to* Bindi and that the two never spoke during sex.

CONS:
-- Complainant asked Rolf for a substantial sum of money after the affair ended. When challenged on this, claimant immediately claims she was drunk at the time.

-- Complainant until age 29 said nothing to Bindi at all about having sex with Rolf, until Bindi mentioned another affair (with boatshed lady), whereon BF immediately admits affair with Rolf, and also claims Rolf molested her.

-- Complainant was confronted by her family over bad behaviour and alcoholism not long after the affair ended. Complainant immediately claimed Rolf molested her, and this was to blame for her bad behaviour and drinking.

-- Rolf did NOT state he found BF sexually attractive, age 13. He was badgered into an admission that ‘he supposed’ his compliment to the complainant referred to how a bikini looked on her body, rather than admiring the bikini by itself.

-- Complainant swears *all* sex was non-consensual. When challenged on this, changes story to that some of the sex *was* consensual, but she was "brainwashed".

-- BF as a mature adult drove clear across the country to visit Rolf in Bindi’s absence, for the purpose of having sex with him. Despite that she only visited one or twice a year for many years, we are expected to believe that she continued to sleep with him until she’s nearly 30, because he somehow during these few annual visits managed to ‘brainwash’ her, and ‘train her like a puppy’.

_____________

Now, if the jury comes back with "guilty", I'll be mighty peeved. I see NO hard PROOF up there, regarding the specific charges. I see a LOT of fudging of dates and changing stories, unreliable witnesses and things which do NOT add up.

I see *plenty* of reason to have reasonable doubt on all four cases.
 
  • #345
TVNZ reports that Cambridge woman turned 16 in 1978.

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/video-casts-doubt-rolf-harris-testimony-5988709

I went to see a brief section of the trial (mostly legal argument) and can confirm that that is the case, although, naturally, I can't show my working. That would have made her 12/13 in 1975. That would tend to support my inferences from up thread.
 
  • #346
John Laws is ripping him a new one right now, I'm becoming obsessed with John Laws .. may he never put down that golden mike :D

When the verdicts are in, is there any way you could share that with those of us not in Australia?
 
  • #347
Rolf Harris trial: Judge Nigel Sweeney says jury verdict must be unanimous

In a lengthy address, Judge Sweeney reminded the jury of their duty as “judges of the evidence” and said he hoped they could “see the wood for the trees and recognise a red herring when you see one and ignore it”.

He said the defendant relied strongly on his good character and asserted he did not commit any of the offences alleged although accepted he did have sexual contact with one victim but that did not start until she was 18.

The prosecution, he said, relied on so many women having given evidence from Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Malta and said there was no reason for any or so many to lie about alleged assaults, for no reason.

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...ust-be-unanimous/story-fnh81p7g-1226957990782

Interesting sum-up from the judge there .. sounds almost prejudicial .. oh well .. we'll have to wait and see now, whatever charges he's found guilty of (assuming he will be) will be appealed no doubt.
 
  • #348
Rolf Harris trial: Judge Nigel Sweeney says jury verdict must be unanimous

That's a standard direction at the beginning of deliberation. If they can't reach a unanimous verdict then the Judge can direct them to deliver a majority verdict (at least 10-2 for a full 12 person jury).
 
  • #349
The judge has also said he hoped the jury could “see the wood for the trees and recognise a red herring when you see one and ignore it”

Meaning - he hopes they can see the "bigger picture" above the smaller details. I am taking to this mean he's urging them to look at the overall similarities in the stories, rather than focussing on their individual faults? His statement to follow, "there was no reason for any or so many to lie about alleged assaults, for no reason" would seem to support that.

And what about the "red herring" comment? I took that to mean "even if one is obviously outright lying, ignore that and keep looking at the overall bigger picture".

Wow.

eta: This "bigger picture" itself is, in my opinion, very likely non-existent, a strawman structure put in place by Yewtree itself.

I find it highly disturbing, for a start, that they'd bring charges against a man over an alleged incident at a public appearance that Yewtree itself, despite its best efforts, could not prove ever happened. Think about that for a moment. They could not, during all the months and months prior to and during this trial, and with all their many resources, find a single iota of evidence that Rolf appeared in Leigh Park during the years his accuser was "aged 7 or 8". They dug up a couple of witnesses who "remembered" him being there in some vague year or other, and also remembered celebrities being there -years- apart and in different locations. Not ONE witness to say "Oh yes, I recall Rolf being there in that period of time, precisely". Not ONE news report, not ONE record from the local council, utterly nothing.

There's *nothing* to prove Rolf appeared in Leigh Park, let alone to prove that he molested a child there. Nothing.

So why's this woman on the stand at all? How are charges brought at all? Is the accusation alone enough to put a man in court? Or is she on the stand because her story supports the "forest" of reports that all sound so similar? Was Yewtree cherry-picking cases, for their consistency in details rather than likelihood of prosecution or indeed, likelihood of being valid at all?

How much of a forest is it, really, when you remove this complainant for a profound lack of evidence supporting her claim, and also Tonya Lee (for reasons I need not state again), and also the woman who hung a picture by Rolf on her daughter's bedroom door (I'd rather assume she's lying than assume she's sadistic enough to hang a molester's picture on her molested daughter's *bedroom* door..).

The forest starts to look a bit thin. How many "red herrings" does it take before the entire case starts to stink?
 
  • #350
It is very interesting to compare this case with that of Freddy Starr, who also faced more than a dozen charges that were dismissed "for lack of evidence" -- aide from one charge which Yewtree did not pursue "in the public interest".

How's it in the public interest interest NOT to pursue a sexual assault charge for which they believed there *was* enough evidence to go to trial? Yeesh... I would love to compare what was thought to be "lack of evidence" in that trial, to what's been actually shoved through to court in Rolf's case.
 
  • #351
  • #352
  • #353
There was no onus on the 84-year-old defendant to prove his innocence, the judge said.'

Not sure what the above means?

I think he's giving the obligatory nod to the unpopular but legally correct notion that a man is innocent until proven guilty. Possibly, to offset the incredibly leading bunch of comments he made earlier, trees and woods and herrings and whatnot.

By which I thought he meant: "Look, what you're going to do is head off now and come to a unanimous agreement that Rolf's guilty. Of everything, except the most obviously untrue things - let's keep it real. Nobody likes an acquittal (except the pervert being acquitted, but who cares about them?!) -- and then we'd have to go to the trouble of making sure everyone still thinks he's a pedophile by stating "lack of evidence" rather than "completely innocent" which carries the risk of indirectly labelling someone who's fabricated a rape story, ruined lives and wasted untold police and legal resources as a money-grubbing, attention hungry, deluded lying bint. Not very good for one's political career, wot? Much better all round if he's simply guilty as charged. So off you hop, and don't come back without a guilty verdict or I'll hit you with my gavel."

Just my interpretation. :whistle:
 
  • #354
Rolf Harris trial jury enters its final day of legal instruction before retiring to reach their verdict

It had been expected the jury would have retired by now to consider a verdict on 12 counts of indecent assault against the 84-year-old Australian-born entertainer.

But such has been the detail, the case adjourned early again as Judge Nigel Sweeney told the 12-person jury he wanted to detail the allegations made by one alleged victim Tonya Lee in totality rather than spread over two days. There are four victims claiming 12 counts of indecent assault over a 20 year period from 1968 to 1986. But Judge Sweeney has also been detailing the evidence given by 10 other “bad character” witnesses most of whom also allege indecent assault by Harris but with the allegations being outside the jurisdiction do not form part of the indictments.

http://www.news.com.au/world/rolf-h...ch-their-verdict/story-fndir2ev-1226959435886

I have a feeling we're going to see mixed results on the verdict here .. I don't think it was wise of TL to go to media, but I don't think it will effect the verdict in the charges relating to her and nor should it .. we shall see .. dragging the thing out a bit aren't they?
 
  • #355
I've been following the live updates from the mirror site.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/rolf harris trial

I've found that at least for me Firefox doesn't automatically update the live updates but it does work on Google Chrome.
The jury was out considering their verdict for 4 hours yesterday and came back at 4.30 pm when court finished and they will be back in court at 2pm today to continue their deliberations.

Its now 8.13 am, London time so it's going to be a few hours before the jury does go out again.
I wonder what happens if they really can't come to a decision ?
 
  • #356
  • #357
Follow hashtags #rolfharris and #rolf on twitter.
 
  • #358
I wonder what happens if they really can't come to a decision ?

At some point, if they can't reach a unanimous verdict, the Crown and the defence will agree for the judge to give a majority direction, which means they
can deliver a verdict if ten or more of them are agreed. It they still can't reach a verdict, then they'll deliver any verdicts they can agree on and then be dismissed. The Crown will then have to decide if they want to retry any of the remaining charges with a new jury, and this can and does happen. I believe Dave Lee Travers is being retried for at least one sex offence which the jury couldn't reach a verdict on, having acquitted him of all the others. The convention is that if two juries can't reach a verdict then there won't be another retrial.
 
  • #359
Thanks for that, Supernovae :tyou:
 
  • #360
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26322552

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...announces-charged-count-indecent-assault.html

With Rolf Harris, I think the difficulty will be the difference between being convinced that he did something (general sexually inappropriate behaviour, an inappropriate relationship with Bindi's friend, which I don't believe only started when she was an adult) and proving he did the charges on the indictment. I don't believe he'll be found guilty for the offences against Tonya Lee or Bindi's friend. I think the Portsmouth woman could go either way, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was convicted of the Cambridge assault. These things are all about credibility, and neither party can afford to be caught in mistruths.

It reminds me of this video:

Dont Talk to Police - YouTube

We don't have a non-prejudicial right to silence or not to give evidence, in the UK, but on sex offences that occur in private, and particularly historic ones, prosecutors are working uphill, and you can dig your own grave so much by giving poor or conflicting testimony. The same thing happened with Max Clifford, which is why I suspect he was convicted when so many before him weren't:

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/may/02/max-clifford-sex-politics-tabloids-simon-hattenstone
 

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