Undoing

[Ames]

Hi Rash,

You are 1000% right. If not for the sexual assault, this would be cut and dry. But she does have what appears is a staged assault and I believe it is staged. As far as prior sexual abuse, I just don't think it happened. I think there would be too many people to keep quiet if there were prior abuse. I do not think it would have started with JB. He had two other girls - one is dead, and that almost crushed him, and the other is adamant that nothing happened. I do not think he would welcome that kind of pain again. Colorado said it was well known in some Colorado circles that douching was happening. The maid said there was daily screaming from Patsy and JB coming from the bathroom, (an exaggeration, possibly yes, but I think it did happen). I realize that some might say douching does not cause this. But yet, she is a very small child. It could cause abrasions. If Patsy is doing this, she is doing it to humiliate her so that she will stop wetting her underwear. If she is doing it to humiliate her, she is not going to be nice about it and she could very well hurt her.


This is what I think.

I am leaning more toward this scenario too.

 

[eleven]

Hi Rash,

You are 1000% right. If not for the sexual assault, this would be cut and dry. But she does have what appears is a staged assault and I believe it is staged. As far as prior sexual abuse, I just don't think it happened. I think there would be too many people to keep quiet if there were prior abuse. I do not think it would have started with JB. He had two other girls - one is dead, and that almost crushed him, and the other is adamant that nothing happened. I do not think he would welcome that kind of pain again. Colorado said it was well known in some Colorado circles that douching was happening. The maid said there was daily screaming from Patsy and JB coming from the bathroom, (an exaggeration, possibly yes, but I think it did happen). I realize that some might say douching does not cause this. But yet, she is a very small child. It could cause abrasions. If Patsy is doing this, she is doing it to humiliate her so that she will stop wetting her underwear. If she is doing it to humiliate her, she is not going to be nice about it and she could very well hurt her.


This is what I think.

Has it ever been reported elsewhere that it was well known in some circles that douching was happening? What I mean is, all I have ever read is that it is just supposition that this COULD have been happening. This is the only place I have ever read that a poster has reported this as being a fact to some people. And if it was indeed well-known, is there any documentation that this was reported to LE? Links?

 

[Ames]

Has it ever been reported elsewhere that it was well known in some circles that douching was happening? What I mean is, all I have ever read is that it is just supposition that this COULD have been happening. This is the only place I have ever read that a poster has reported this as being a fact to some people. And if it was indeed well-known, is there any documentation that this was reported to LE? Links?

OMG...I just tried to Google that...using the words...Jonbenet Ramsey douching...and you would not BELIEVE the cra@p that came up. By that, I mean...like and stuff like that. My laptop feels so CHEAP and SO DIRTY now....LOL

 

[Solace]

OMG...I just tried to Google that...using the words...Jonbenet Ramsey douching...and you would not BELIEVE the cra@p that came up. By that, I mean...like and stuff like that. My laptop feels so CHEAP and SO DIRTY now....LOL

You can't even write in the word kitten. I was looking for persian kittens once, and I cannot even begin to describe what came back.

But you do crack me up AMES.

 

[Ames]

You can't even write in the word kitten. I was looking for persian kittens once, and I cannot even begin to describe what came back.

But you do crack me up AMES.

What is this world coming to? I know at one time, you couldn't even type the word WHITE HOUSE into the search engine, without getting sites, and stuff that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the White House. (Unless of course...you are Bill Clinton).

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, douching COULD have caused the chronic injuries...but why hide it with the ACUTE injury which caused the bleeding? There was enough bleeding to neccesitate wiping her thighs and pubic area. And blood residue STILL showed up under the black light. I just can't see any other reason for the vaginal stab, whether the paintbrush part was left inside or used or not. The cellulose found in the vagina could have been from wood fragments on a finger/glove from breaking the paintbrush handle as well as from inserting the broken handle itself. And we just don't know if that handle was left inside her. This, plus the birifringent material (which may be the powder from a latex glove) makes me agree with the forensics specialists who think there was digital penetration.
If the injuries were ONLY from douching, there was no need to cover it up. Douching a 6-year old is appalling- but not illegal. And it seems that if people who knew PR had knowledge of it, it wasn't a secret either.

 

[Albert18]

I'd be interested in other RDIs' opinion on this, for I'm going back and forth on the issue of chronic sexual abuse.

1) Do you believe JonBenet had been the victim of chronic sexual abuse?

2) If yes, who do you think was her sexual abuser?
2' ) If it wasn't Patsy, do you think she knew who was JonBenet's sexual abuser?
2'') How would you put it all together in a time line of events on that fatal night?

3) If not, how would you interpret what Dr. McCann said about this issue in the Bonita papers?

JonBenet may or may not have been sexually abused, I don't think it mattered.

Here is my guess as to a timeline of major events.

1. A confrontation happens between JonBenet and Patsy and JonBenet is injured.

2. JonBenet is moved to the basement and the staging of the body is done by Patsy.

3. Patsy writes the ransom note.

4. The 911 call is made.

The earliest John enters the picture is between steps 3 and 4, but I don't think we can pin it down any closer than that. (It would be nice if John would tell us.) By then all the damage is done and John can either turn Patsy into the police or continue with the plan she has put in place. He must have decided to do the latter as long as it was safe to do so.

The sexual abuse is a needless distraction. JonBenet died because of something between her and Patsy.

 

[Ames]

JonBenet may or may not have been sexually abused, I don't think it mattered.

Here is my guess as to a timeline of major events.

1. A confrontation happens between JonBenet and Patsy and JonBenet is injured.

2. JonBenet is moved to the basement and the staging of the body is done by Patsy.

3. Patsy writes the ransom note.

4. The 911 call is made.

The earliest John enters the picture is between steps 3 and 4, but I don't think we can pin it down any closer than that. (It would be nice if John would tell us.) By then all the damage is done and John can either turn Patsy into the police or continue with the plan she has put in place. He must have decided to do the latter as long as it was safe to do so.

The sexual abuse is a needless distraction. JonBenet died because of something between her and Patsy.

I agree!!!

 

[rashomon]

JonBenet may or may not have been sexually abused, I don't think it mattered.

Here is my guess as to a timeline of major events.

1. A confrontation happens between JonBenet and Patsy and JonBenet is injured.

2. JonBenet is moved to the basement and the staging of the body is done by Patsy.

3. Patsy writes the ransom note.

4. The 911 call is made.

The earliest John enters the picture is between steps 3 and 4, but I don't think we can pin it down any closer than that. (It would be nice if John would tell us.) By then all the damage is done and John can either turn Patsy into the police or continue with the plan she has put in place. He must have decided to do the latter as long as it was safe to do so.

The sexual abuse is a needless distraction. JonBenet died because of something between her and Patsy.

But what about John's shirt fibers which were found in the crotch area of JonBenet's underwear? I believe John assisted Patsy in the staging.

 

[Albert18]

But what about John's shirt fibers which were found in the crotch area of JonBenet's underwear? I believe John assisted Patsy in the staging.

I think John's behavior is more important than the fibers. John's fibers and Patsy's fibers are very different.

Patsy's fibers were where they shouldn't have been. Her fibers couldn't have ended up where they were by accident. Remember her fibers were entwined and they were in the paint tray in the basement. That can't be said for John's fibers. John was with JonBenet while wearing that shirt. John was with Patsy while wearing that shirt. We don't know what kind of cloth was used to clean JonBenet. We don't know what journey the new oversized underwear took. We don't know all the locations of JonBenet that night and all the actions involved in the staging. The fiber transfer could be incidental.

Now look at John's behavior.

We have had a lot of discussion where people try to understand why JonBenet's hands were tied like they were. Didn't John do exactly the same thing? He tried to explain away part of the staging by saying he had messed with the cord around her wriists after he found her. Had he? I doubt it. I think he recognized, like we did, that there was a problem with the way JonBenet't hands were tied. He was trying to diffuse that part of the staging just like he did with the basement window. If the way her hands were tied bothered him, and it's obvious it did, why didn't he fix it or do it right at 2AM or 3AM or 4AM or 5AM.

 

[Ames]

But what about John's shirt fibers which were found in the crotch area of JonBenet's underwear? I believe John assisted Patsy in the staging.

So do I! There's no other explanation for those shirt fibers being in her crotch area. I do not think that Patsy could have pulled the staging off all by herself.

 

[Ames]

I think John's behavior is more important than the fibers. John's fibers and Patsy's fibers are very different.

Patsy's fibers were where they shouldn't have been. Her fibers couldn't have ended up where they were by accident. Remember her fibers were entwined and they were in the paint tray in the basement. That can't be said for John's fibers. John was with JonBenet while wearing that shirt. John was with Patsy while wearing that shirt. We don't know what kind of cloth was used to clean JonBenet. We don't know what journey the new oversized underwear took. We don't know all the locations of JonBenet that night and all the actions involved in the staging. The fiber transfer could be incidental.

Now look at John's behavior.

We have had a lot of discussion where people try to understand why JonBenet's hands were tied like they were. Didn't John do exactly the same thing? He tried to explain away part of the staging by saying he had messed with the cord around her wriists after he found her. Had he? I doubt it. I think he recognized, like we did, that there was a problem with the way JonBenet't hands were tied. He was trying to diffuse that part of the staging just like he did with the basement window. If the way her hands were tied bothered him, and it's obvious it did, why didn't he fix it or do it right at 2AM or 3AM or 4AM or 5AM.

I believe that John took part in the staging, because I just don't think that Patsy could have done all of that all by herself. I believe that, rigor had started to set in by the time her hands were tied....the accidental blow to the head, and the killing, did not happen within a matter of minutes. It took some time to plan this thing out...meanwhile, JB has rigor setting in. That...IMO...is the reason that her wrists were so far apart. I am sure that it looked funny to John, but what could he do? He couldn't move her wrists any closer, because of the stiffness. He probably thought about this after the fact...and when he realized that HE was going to have to be the one to find her...he said in his interview that he did not even realize that Fleet was still with him at that point. His own words..." I do not remember Fleet being there"....I believe that, in his mind....he would find her, and loosen one of the wrist ligatures...and then tell authorities that the wrists were tied closely together. Which is exactly WHAT he DID tell them. In sum it up here....he couldn't tie the wrists closer, because of rigor. When all of the panicking wore off, and he had time to re-think the situation...the police had already arrived. He decided to "FIND" JB....and to loosen one of the wrist restraints, and tell the authorities that they had been tied closely together. He probably was not even thinking that they would be able to tell that the wrists were NOT tied closely together.

 

[Albert18]

But JonBenet didn't die until the cord was tightened around her neck. Her wrists would have been tied before this or shortly thereafter. This would have been well before rigor started.

 

[UKGuy]

The only thing which imo complicates matters is the signs of chronic sexual abuse on JonBenet. If it weren't for that, it would basically be a simple and straightforward case: a parent (Patsy imo) snapped and lost it, inflicted a lethal head injury and then clumsily tried to cover it up by staging both a sex crime and a 'kidnapping for ransom' scenario.
But if it is true that JB had been the victim of chronic sexual abuse, who was her abuser? John?
If yes, how does the chronic sexual abuse mesh with the staged scene? I just can't believe Patsy would have covered up for John if he had not only molested, but also killed her daughter to silence her as a witness. But the forensic evidence (fibers from her jacket found in incriminating locations, and her in all probability having written the ransom note) implicates Patsy as the main stager of the scene.

I'd be interested in other RDIs' opinion on this, for I'm going back and forth on the issue of chronic sexual abuse.

1) Do you believe JonBenet had been the victim of chronic sexual abuse?

2) If yes, who do you think was her sexual abuser?
2' ) If it wasn't Patsy, do you think she knew who was JonBenet's sexual abuser?
2'') How would you put it all together in a time line of events on that fatal night?

3) If not, how would you interpret what Dr. McCann said about this issue in the Bonita papers?

rashomon,

The only thing which imo complicates matters is the signs of chronic sexual abuse on JonBenet.

Coroner Meyer in his autopsy report and verbally tells you unambiguously that JonBenet prior to her death was subject to sexual contact. He also suggested that her vagina displayed signs of digital penetration, now he was present, he conducted the autopsy, everyone else used photographs.

That JonBenet's hymen was eroded and her vaginal entrance unnaturally enlarged was considered to reflect chronic sexual abuse.

So you have evidence for both acute and chronic sexual abuse.

So to answer:

1.) JonBenet was the victim of acute and chronic sexual molestation.

2.) Anyone resident on the night of her death.
2'.) All the residents knew who her abuser was.
2''.) 11pm-1am JonBenet is molested, approx 1am JonBenet is killed, approx 2am-5am crime-scene staging.

a parent (Patsy imo) snapped and lost it, inflicted a lethal head injury and then clumsily tried to cover it up by staging both a sex crime and a 'kidnapping for ransom' scenario

If you think this then you must explain why the sexual assault was cleaned up, and she was redressed in size-12 underwear, redressed in urine-soaked lonhjohns, then all wrapped in white blankets, completely hiding any sexual assault?

imo what was being hidden was a sexual molestation!

JonBenet's killer may have enacted some pedophile fantasy down in the basement, possibly taking photographs, the paintbrush may have played some part in this, or it could have been played out in one of the bedrooms, or the den.

If yes, how does the chronic sexual abuse mesh with the staged scene? I just can't believe Patsy would have covered up for John if he had not only molested, but also killed her daughter to silence her as a witness. But the forensic evidence (fibers from her jacket found in incriminating locations, and her in all probability having written the ransom note) implicates Patsy as the main stager of the scene.

All three residents have colluded to present a version of events for the night of JonBenet's death. But as you know they are all inconsistent with the forensic evidence e.g. pineapple, size-12's, fibers in her clean underwear, fibers on the underside of the tape, fibers embedded into the garrote knotting.

The person who knows the truth since he was there, is Burke, he knows whether the version of events as presented by John are correct or not, he is the one person who can break the case.

What is inescapable is that one of John, Patsy, or Burke, sexually molested JonBenet, then killed her, and according to the forensic evidence both John and Patsy were involved in the staging of the crime-scene. There is no forensic evidence linking Burke to the crime-scene.


.

 

[Ames]

But JonBenet didn't die until the cord was tightened around her neck. Her wrists would have been tied before this or shortly thereafter. This would have been well before rigor started.

Well, we were not there....so we really do not know WHEN her hands were tied. Frankly, I think that they used some other source....like a scarf, or John's hands....to cut off her air supply...and then the staging....(garotte, ligature, etc) didn't take place until sometime later. I am sure that she died well before they had time to think about what kind of staging that they were going to do. I don't think that they had thought that part of it out, until long after she was dead. I believe that rigor is the ONLY thing that explains her wrists having 15 in. of cord between them. I don't believe, for one second, that she was hung up by that rope..and then taken down. We are trying to make this more complex, than it really is.

 

[Ames]

rashomon,

Coroner Meyer in his autopsy report and verbally tells you unambiguously that JonBenet prior to her death was subject to sexual contact. He also suggested that her vagina displayed signs of digital penetration, now he was present, he conducted the autopsy, everyone else used photographs.

That JonBenet's hymen was eroded and her vaginal entrance unnaturally enlarged was considered to reflect chronic sexual abuse.

So you have evidence for both acute and chronic sexual abuse.

So to answer:

1.) JonBenet was the victim of acute and chronic sexual molestation.

2.) Anyone resident on the night of her death.
2'.) All the residents knew who her abuser was.
2''.) 11pm-1am JonBenet is molested, approx 1am JonBenet is killed, approx 2am-5am crime-scene staging.


If you think this then you must explain why the sexual assault was cleaned up, and she was redressed in size-12 underwear, redressed in urine-soaked lonhjohns, then all wrapped in white blankets, completely hiding any sexual assault?

imo what was being hidden was a sexual molestation!

JonBenet's killer may have enacted some pedophile fantasy down in the basement, possibly taking photographs, the paintbrush may have played some part in this, or it could have been played out in one of the bedrooms, or the den.


All three residents have colluded to present a version of events for the night of JonBenet's death. But as you know they are all inconsistent with the forensic evidence e.g. pineapple, size-12's, fibers in her clean underwear, fibers on the underside of the tape, fibers embedded into the garrote knotting.

The person who knows the truth since he was there, is Burke, he knows whether the version of events as presented by John are correct or not, he is the one person who can break the case.

What is inescapable is that one of John, Patsy, or Burke, sexually molested JonBenet, then killed her, and according to the forensic evidence both John and Patsy were involved in the staging of the crime-scene. There is no forensic evidence linking Burke to the crime-scene.


.

Well, don't you think that it could have been enlarged, because a paintbrush had been inserted into it. I can't explain away the erosion of the hymen, though.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, don't you think that it could have been enlarged, because a paintbrush had been inserted into it. I can't explain away the erosion of the hymen, though.

Ames,

mmm , well depends upon the the paintbrush handle's diameter and just how enlarged she was?

Although not conclusive, given the nature of her death and sexualization via pageant participation etc, there is enough circumstantial evidence to form the basis for acute and chronic molestataion.

 

[coloradokares]

Well, don't you think that it could have been enlarged, because a paintbrush had been inserted into it. I can't explain away the erosion of the hymen, though.

Chronic means more than one isolated event of violation. The erosion is explained by the fact it was again not an isolated event but rather it was chronic abuse, the question is not was the abuse repetitive but who was the abuser and what was used that created that erosion, was it digital or by a douche applicator or what are the other possibilities ?

 

[JMO8778]

the wrist ligatures could have been from a sexual staging (done by JR,IMO),along w the garrote..sort of S&M,IMO..something no one would think a parent would do...to point to a pedo suspect.
I think JR meant to restage her wrists,and either he forgot that part,or couldn't do it due to rigor.
If it's the latter, then there was quite a bit of time that elapsed bet. JB's death and the staging of the wrist ligatures(perhaps they were only added later in order to use up the rest of the rope?).But it appears the vag. wound occurred fairly quickly, either soon after or right b/f the head injury.(?)

 

[Ames]

Ames,

mmm , well depends upon the the paintbrush handle's diameter and just how enlarged she was?

Although not conclusive, given the nature of her death and sexualization via pageant participation etc, there is enough circumstantial evidence to form the basis for acute and chronic molestataion.

Although I am still on the fence....it certainly looks that way, doesn't it? I think that her bedwetting and soiling of her pants during the DAY is a huge sign. I used to work for a drop off day-care, they were open after school, so we had school kids sometimes. Anyway, this one little girl, her mom was about to marry this creepy guy.....OMG...he gave me the creeps...anyway, she was almost 8 years old, and just while I was there....she wet on herself FOUR times....I ran out of clothes to put on her, so finally, I gave her something that was three sizes to small. After the first time, I said..."you need to go to the bathroom, don't wet your pants"...she said "okay"...well she did it again, and again and again. I told her that I would call her dad, and she said..."NOOOOO...please don't call my dad, he will make me stand in the corner for 12 hours"....I think that she was exaggerating, but....still....he obviously makes her stand there for a long time. I told the owner, and he...a guy...said "we have had a problem with her doing that before, I think that something is going on in her house, because that's a sign of molestation."