Undoing

[azwriter]

My answers:
1) Yes.
2) JR.
2') No.
2") Here goes.

I have come to suspect that JR was abusing JBR. I don't think of him as a pedophile; I think if he was molesting JBR it was a crime of opportunity that began as slightly inappropriate conduct and progressed from there. I think it may have begun either during PR's battle with cancer or following his oldest daugher's death; in fact, that latter event seems the more likely catalyst, as his sincere grief over Beth's death may have collided with a kind of resentment of his youngest daughter, who was being made over into a miniature image of her mother before his eyes due to the pageant involvement and who would be dressed as a child one day and a provocative adult the next. Now, I do NOT think the abuse had progressed beyond digital activity; JBR's autopsy seems to indicate that more significant physical activity had not occurred.

In the days leading up to the crime I think JR was becoming very worried. JBR was showing signs of being about to tell: she may have initiated the mysterious 911 call, or JR may have thought that she did; she was seen crying and saying she didn't feel pretty, and she openly rejected the My Twinn Doll on Christmas morning, the doll that was supposed to look just like her. Moreover, JR's second family was on a collision course with his first; that is, he and PR and BR and JBR were to spend a couple of days in Charlevoix with Melinda, Stewart Long, and JAR: and both Melinda and Stewart had medical backgrounds, and might notice signs of abuse which had so far apparently escaped the attention of Dr. Beuf. In point of fact, PR was the one who kept taking JBR to Dr. Beuf to discuss her mysterious vaginal rashes and the like, and unless you truly believe in a Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy theory that's inexplicable if you think she either knew about or was responsible for JBR's abuse.

I think the R's arrived home the night of the 25th tired and stressed, and that PR gave both BR and JBR a snack, leaving the bowl of pineapple and BR's empty glass on the table. I think she then went up with JBR and put her to bed and then told JR not to let BR play with his new toy too long before going off to finish packing for the next day's trip; she may even have gone to the basement to finish wrapping gifts for extended family members.

Eventually JR sent BR to bed, too. I honestly think PR was getting ready for bed, or might even have gone to bed, before what happened next.

Now, I don't think JR intended to abuse JBR that night, nor am I at all sure which room of the house the murder took place in. But I think what happened is that JR discovered JBR still awake and possibly out of bed, ordered her sternly to go back to bed, and then interpreted something in her defiance or her actual words to be a threat of exposure. Coming on top of his concerns leading up to that day, and the next day's trip, I think this would be enough to cause him to strike the blow to the head.

One of the first things he would have thought about as she lay there apparently dead was that there was no way this could be passed off as an accident--because of the evidence of abuse that would be discovered during an autopsy (and JR had to know that a child's accidental death would require an autopsy. I think everyone knows that!). Inflicting the vaginal wound just made sense, then, because I think JR thought that if it looked as though someone else had done this then maybe the original evidence of chronic abuse would be too compromised to prove anything against him, and we should remember that this actually worked. Unfortunately for him, she was still alive, and the wound bled much more profusely than he might have thought it would. The clean up became necessary, and in the process JR left fiber evidence behind: the only fiber evidence, btw, that is present beneath JBR's clothing.

I think by this time he was already in the basement with her, no matter where the head blow had been struck. Since PR had put JBR to bed, PR knew which underwear she'd been wearing, and the word "Wednesday" was quite possibly visible, at least somewhat, through the off-white long underwear. JR remembered PR showing him the many gifts she'd bought for relatives, including the larger-sized Bloomies; he opened several packages to find them (which to me indicates that the person who used the Bloomies was NOT the person who wrapped them in the first place, though some have argued otherwise). Why would he do this? Because it was imperative that for the initial period following the murder PR should NOT suspect sexual abuse, which might make her suspect him: and he couldn't risk someone like PR forgetting which pair of underwear JBR had worn to bed!

After redressing JBR JR proceeded to stage the "body" for the first time. He placed a length of rope around her neck and tightened it, killing her, though it may be argued that he didn't realize she was still alive at that point; on the other hand, he might have known it. Beside the rope he placed BR's open pocket knife; beside the body he also placed a heavy golf club. (Why else would JR have been so worried about his golf clubs? I find myself wondering if some forensic evidence couldn't still be recovered from one of them.) These items were meant to indicate to PR that BR had committed the crime, since BR had struck JBR once before with a golf club and since I'm sure the children had the usual sibling squabbles; in fact, on Christmas Day JBR was laying in the doorway of BR's room as he played his new Nintendo with his friends, a detail which at least suggests the possibility that BR had forbidden her to come in and watch them play; so to abide with the letter of the law but thwart the spirit JBR lays just outside the room playing with her jewelry craft kit, a fact I'm sure BR found annoying at the time.

When all is ready JR goes and gets PR, and in a very heartbroken manner brings her to JBR's body. I think it was PR and not JBR who screamed around 2 a.m., and that PR sat cradling JBR's body, her rings leaving the 'stun gun' impressions as per another poster's brilliant theory. And PR's sweater fibers fell all over the rope, too, which is how they ended up twisted into the knot of the faux garrote.

I think JR found it easy to convince PR that BR had to be protected at all costs. If they let LE at him he'll be taken away from them; even if he can't be charged with the crime it may be years before he's ever in their care again: and this is where JR played his trump card--PR could be dead before she ever sees her son again, if she lets the police find out that he is the killer.

So PR lets herself be talked into covering up the crime, for the sake of her son. Ever after this the one thing that rouses her to actual anger is the suggestion by anyone that BR might have been involved; eventually a 'preemptive strike' in the form of a lawsuit is carried out to protect him.

But here's where JR runs into a snag. For his purposes, he'd like to stage the crime scene as a sexual assault scene--but he can't afford to let PR know what he has done to the body! So JBR's body has to remain fully clothed, though JR vetoes PR's desire to redress JBR in her favorite nightgown, and is then annoyed when the nightgown is left by the body after all. And the fake 'scenario' has to steer clear of sex motives; but there has to be a reason to call police early in the morning, and also to cancel their planned trip to Charlevoix. So a ransom note suggesting a politically motivated kidnapping is written instead, and the body is staged for the second time that night.

I think the notion that rigor has begun to appear by the time the wrist ligatures are tied is spot on. It had to have taken a while for JR to stage JBR's body the first time, for PR's sake; and by the time the two of them had discussed what to do and begun doing it I think it was between 2 and 3 a.m. I think they barely "made" it, making the 911 call a little before six a.m.

Now, eventually PR had to become aware of the physical/sexual assault evidence; but by the time it became necessary for her to know I think JR had decided how to handle things. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if JR eventually "sold" PR on the idea that BR didn't fully realize any of what he'd done, that in some way it really wasn't his fault, that he had some "issues" or other that just needed good old fashioned strong family love to sort out. I can see her falling for that, believing it because it allowed her to continue living her life and maintaining the status quo, which ultimately seems to have been the most important thing to her.

Wow Dru! What a plot. It makes so much sense. You've got me convienced.

 

[JMO8778]

And supposing her death was an accident, there must have been some terrible circumstances surrounding the accident to keep her parents from calling 911 or taking her to the hostpital for emergency treatment. Would the guilt of those circumstances keep Patsy and John from seeking help for their 6-year-old?
Something very wrong was going on in that home that night, wrong enough to force the parents into faking a crime scene. Or were they covering for the person who caused the death, a person they could not name because they too would be blamed for allowing it to happen?
We don't have all the evidence. There is some key piece that keeps us from linking this all together into a clear picture.
JMO

right on,and it isn't b/c of some mysterious,elusive intruder.

 

[JMO8778]

My answers:
1) Yes.
2) JR.
2') No.
2") Here goes.

I have come to suspect that JR was abusing JBR. I don't think of him as a pedophile; I think if he was molesting JBR it was a crime of opportunity that began as slightly inappropriate conduct and progressed from there. I think it may have begun either during PR's battle with cancer or following his oldest daugher's death; in fact, that latter event seems the more likely catalyst, as his sincere grief over Beth's death may have collided with a kind of resentment of his youngest daughter, who was being made over into a miniature image of her mother before his eyes due to the pageant involvement and who would be dressed as a child one day and a provocative adult the next. Now, I do NOT think the abuse had progressed beyond digital activity; JBR's autopsy seems to indicate that more significant physical activity had not occurred.

In the days leading up to the crime I think JR was becoming very worried. JBR was showing signs of being about to tell: she may have initiated the mysterious 911 call, or JR may have thought that she did; she was seen crying and saying she didn't feel pretty, and she openly rejected the My Twinn Doll on Christmas morning, the doll that was supposed to look just like her. Moreover, JR's second family was on a collision course with his first; that is, he and PR and BR and JBR were to spend a couple of days in Charlevoix with Melinda, Stewart Long, and JAR: and both Melinda and Stewart had medical backgrounds, and might notice signs of abuse which had so far apparently escaped the attention of Dr. Beuf. In point of fact, PR was the one who kept taking JBR to Dr. Beuf to discuss her mysterious vaginal rashes and the like, and unless you truly believe in a Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy theory that's inexplicable if you think she either knew about or was responsible for JBR's abuse.

I think the R's arrived home the night of the 25th tired and stressed, and that PR gave both BR and JBR a snack, leaving the bowl of pineapple and BR's empty glass on the table. I think she then went up with JBR and put her to bed and then told JR not to let BR play with his new toy too long before going off to finish packing for the next day's trip; she may even have gone to the basement to finish wrapping gifts for extended family members.

Eventually JR sent BR to bed, too. I honestly think PR was getting ready for bed, or might even have gone to bed, before what happened next.

Now, I don't think JR intended to abuse JBR that night, nor am I at all sure which room of the house the murder took place in. But I think what happened is that JR discovered JBR still awake and possibly out of bed, ordered her sternly to go back to bed, and then interpreted something in her defiance or her actual words to be a threat of exposure. Coming on top of his concerns leading up to that day, and the next day's trip, I think this would be enough to cause him to strike the blow to the head.

One of the first things he would have thought about as she lay there apparently dead was that there was no way this could be passed off as an accident--because of the evidence of abuse that would be discovered during an autopsy (and JR had to know that a child's accidental death would require an autopsy. I think everyone knows that!). Inflicting the vaginal wound just made sense, then, because I think JR thought that if it looked as though someone else had done this then maybe the original evidence of chronic abuse would be too compromised to prove anything against him, and we should remember that this actually worked. Unfortunately for him, she was still alive, and the wound bled much more profusely than he might have thought it would. The clean up became necessary, and in the process JR left fiber evidence behind: the only fiber evidence, btw, that is present beneath JBR's clothing.

I think by this time he was already in the basement with her, no matter where the head blow had been struck. Since PR had put JBR to bed, PR knew which underwear she'd been wearing, and the word "Wednesday" was quite possibly visible, at least somewhat, through the off-white long underwear. JR remembered PR showing him the many gifts she'd bought for relatives, including the larger-sized Bloomies; he opened several packages to find them (which to me indicates that the person who used the Bloomies was NOT the person who wrapped them in the first place, though some have argued otherwise). Why would he do this? Because it was imperative that for the initial period following the murder PR should NOT suspect sexual abuse, which might make her suspect him: and he couldn't risk someone like PR forgetting which pair of underwear JBR had worn to bed!

After redressing JBR JR proceeded to stage the "body" for the first time. He placed a length of rope around her neck and tightened it, killing her, though it may be argued that he didn't realize she was still alive at that point; on the other hand, he might have known it. Beside the rope he placed BR's open pocket knife; beside the body he also placed a heavy golf club. (Why else would JR have been so worried about his golf clubs? I find myself wondering if some forensic evidence couldn't still be recovered from one of them.) These items were meant to indicate to PR that BR had committed the crime, since BR had struck JBR once before with a golf club and since I'm sure the children had the usual sibling squabbles; in fact, on Christmas Day JBR was laying in the doorway of BR's room as he played his new Nintendo with his friends, a detail which at least suggests the possibility that BR had forbidden her to come in and watch them play; so to abide with the letter of the law but thwart the spirit JBR lays just outside the room playing with her jewelry craft kit, a fact I'm sure BR found annoying at the time.

When all is ready JR goes and gets PR, and in a very heartbroken manner brings her to JBR's body. I think it was PR and not JBR who screamed around 2 a.m., and that PR sat cradling JBR's body, her rings leaving the 'stun gun' impressions as per another poster's brilliant theory. And PR's sweater fibers fell all over the rope, too, which is how they ended up twisted into the knot of the faux garrote.

I think JR found it easy to convince PR that BR had to be protected at all costs. If they let LE at him he'll be taken away from them; even if he can't be charged with the crime it may be years before he's ever in their care again: and this is where JR played his trump card--PR could be dead before she ever sees her son again, if she lets the police find out that he is the killer.

So PR lets herself be talked into covering up the crime, for the sake of her son. Ever after this the one thing that rouses her to actual anger is the suggestion by anyone that BR might have been involved; eventually a 'preemptive strike' in the form of a lawsuit is carried out to protect him.

But here's where JR runs into a snag. For his purposes, he'd like to stage the crime scene as a sexual assault scene--but he can't afford to let PR know what he has done to the body! So JBR's body has to remain fully clothed, though JR vetoes PR's desire to redress JBR in her favorite nightgown, and is then annoyed when the nightgown is left by the body after all. And the fake 'scenario' has to steer clear of sex motives; but there has to be a reason to call police early in the morning, and also to cancel their planned trip to Charlevoix. So a ransom note suggesting a politically motivated kidnapping is written instead, and the body is staged for the second time that night.

I think the notion that rigor has begun to appear by the time the wrist ligatures are tied is spot on. It had to have taken a while for JR to stage JBR's body the first time, for PR's sake; and by the time the two of them had discussed what to do and begun doing it I think it was between 2 and 3 a.m. I think they barely "made" it, making the 911 call a little before six a.m.

Now, eventually PR had to become aware of the physical/sexual assault evidence; but by the time it became necessary for her to know I think JR had decided how to handle things. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if JR eventually "sold" PR on the idea that BR didn't fully realize any of what he'd done, that in some way it really wasn't his fault, that he had some "issues" or other that just needed good old fashioned strong family love to sort out. I can see her falling for that, believing it because it allowed her to continue living her life and maintaining the status quo, which ultimately seems to have been the most important thing to her.

excellent,I certainly don't rule JR out.I was reading PMPT recently,and came across a part where it talks about some detectives wondered if the hole in JB's skull could have been caused by the *joint of a golf club.It perplexes me that only a **partial set of golf clubs were found...like what did he do? Lose a few..or only one??? (what exactly does partial mean??) I'd think they would be kind of hard to just *lose.So why was only a partial set recovered?
But,of course if she was struck w. a golf club,or even the FL,(as some thought that was it in PMPT) ...that sure isn't an accident.
I also think it was JR who tied that knot and did the ligature staging...at the least,Patsy could have gotten these items for him,or as you said,hugged her bf the garrote was fashioned and got her fibers into it like that(maybe JR even knew this and didn't stop her??)B/c I see a lot of JR hiding behind Patsy.
If the neighbors are correct,JB was killed sometime bf midnite,as her head stone suggests (flashlite being seen in kitchen at that time),and then the scream at 2am....was Patsy.JB would have likely already been dead by that time.

edited to add: Do you have a copy of DOI? I was wondering what you think of JR trying to account for his underwear fibers in JB's room, near her bed.Bc I do think that's what he was trying to do,along with accounting for his prints on the window and the walk-in fridge.
I know it was said that stains were found on JB's carpet by flourescent light,but no one ever says what those 'stains' were.
that's an excellent point about the fiber evidence..Patsy's were found *above her clothing,while only JR's are beneath it,and actually on her body.

 

[Toltec]

This horrible incident could have began around the Christmas party...the 23d of December.

JonBenet must of told her mother or father that Grandpa Paugh had his way with her that night. Grandpa must have been confronted and then told he was not welcome to spend Christmas with them, hence, the flight to Atlanta stand-by.

We heard not one peep from Don Paugh about the murder of his Granddaughter. He didn't bother to come to Patsy's side when JonBenet died.

 

[JMO8778]

This horrible incident could have began around the Christmas party...the 23d of December.

JonBenet must of told her mother or father that Grandpa Paugh had his way with her that night. Grandpa must have been confronted and then told he was not welcome to spend Christmas with them, hence, the flight to Atlanta stand-by.

We heard not one peep from Don Paugh about the murder of his Granddaughter. He didn't bother to come to Patsy's side when JonBenet died.

I also wonder why Patsy's side didn't have lawyers for themselves,as JR's side did.I think he hired them all,but still,that's odd (was he afraid LE was going to say there was a conspiracy to kill her on his side of the family? ..even his ex wife had her own lawyer).But we've never heard a thing about her dad or her side having lawyers or not.And only PR's 2 sisters flew in that night.I haven't read that her mom did.

 

[DeeDee249]

Dru, your theory does sound plausible. I've always suspected JR was abusing his youngest daughter (maybe another one as well), regardless of who killed her. I think PR was aware of it, too, and looked the other way just as HER mother did when her own father abused her and her sisters. This is classic behavior. Nedra mentioned JBR was "only a little bit molested". Well, that's like being a "little bit pregnant." No such thing. ANY abuse is too much abuse. But it sounded to me like there was a certain level that was tolerated in the P home. I also think it odd that PR's parents did not fly up immediately. True, the Rs were staying with friends, but still- how could you not be there for your daughter at this most terrible of times?

 

[UKGuy]

This horrible incident could have began around the Christmas party...the 23d of December.

JonBenet must of told her mother or father that Grandpa Paugh had his way with her that night. Grandpa must have been confronted and then told he was not welcome to spend Christmas with them, hence, the flight to Atlanta stand-by.

We heard not one peep from Don Paugh about the murder of his Granddaughter. He didn't bother to come to Patsy's side when JonBenet died.

Toltec,

Yes, what you suggest is interesting, but does not detract from the question why should John and Patsy insert themselves into their daughters homicide?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Toltec,

Yes, what you suggest is interesting, but does not detract from the question why should John and Patsy insert themselves into their daughters homicide?


.

Maybe because they were the means to that (heartbreaking) end.

 

[Ames]

This horrible incident could have began around the Christmas party...the 23d of December.

JonBenet must of told her mother or father that Grandpa Paugh had his way with her that night. Grandpa must have been confronted and then told he was not welcome to spend Christmas with them, hence, the flight to Atlanta stand-by.

We heard not one peep from Don Paugh about the murder of his Granddaughter. He didn't bother to come to Patsy's side when JonBenet died.

I have wondered that myself...if Grandpa Paugh had been molesting her. Yes, its quite weird that he had nothing to say about her murder.

 

[Ames]

Dru, your theory does sound plausible. I've always suspected JR was abusing his youngest daughter (maybe another one as well), regardless of who killed her. I think PR was aware of it, too, and looked the other way just as HER mother did when her own father abused her and her sisters. This is classic behavior. Nedra mentioned JBR was "only a little bit molested". Well, that's like being a "little bit pregnant." No such thing. ANY abuse is too much abuse. But it sounded to me like there was a certain level that was tolerated in the P home. I also think it odd that PR's parents did not fly up immediately. True, the Rs were staying with friends, but still- how could you not be there for your daughter at this most terrible of times?

Where did you read or hear that Patsy's dad abused her and her sisters? She denies this in her 1998 Interview. Of course...she does/did lie. I was just wondering where you got that information from?

 

[JMO8778]

I have wondered that myself...if Grandpa Paugh had been molesting her. Yes, its quite weird that he had nothing to say about her murder.

the silence is deafening !

 

[DeeDee249]

Where did you read or hear that Patsy's dad abused her and her sisters? She denies this in her 1998 Interview. Of course...she does/did lie. I was just wondering where you got that information from?

My own opinion, formed from reading ST's book and Nedra's comments. It was never stated as fact anywhere, but there had been some things written about PR's father detesting fat people, and the fact that his two beauty queen daughters (especially Aunt Pam) got fat. It was suggested that it was to turn him off. I can't remember where I read it. It was also suggested that could account for PR ignoring signs of abuse of her own daughter.

 

[Ames]

My own opinion, formed from reading ST's book and Nedra's comments. It was never stated as fact anywhere, but there had been some things written about PR's father detesting fat people, and the fact that his two beauty queen daughters (especially Aunt Pam) got fat. It was suggested that it was to turn him off. I can't remember where I read it. It was also suggested that could account for PR ignoring signs of abuse of her own daughter.

HMMMM....wow!

 

[coloradokares]

Nuisanceposter,

The inescapable conclusion is that they were both culpable, otherwise neither had a motive to become involved in a criminal homicide, the evidence tells you both parents engaged in the staging, and there is no evidence linking Burke to the crime-scene, although by his silence he is patently covering for his father, since the parents version of events does not correspond with the forensic evidence.

Its quite likely that both parents abused JonBenet possibly in different ways, but that she was, was what is intended to be hidden by her death and subsequent staging, without that as a motive then the intruder theory can be promoted with nothing to contradict it, and with all three Ramsey's colluding together to maintain a silence, the police cannot put anyone on the stand, since they have no star witness, no pleading deals, no wife to assume victim status in the witness box, in short they have a case but no witness.


.

A wife cannot be compelled or legally forced to testify against her husband and the opposite is true as well regarding the other spouse The Ramseys were well aware of this and so was the DA All they had to do is keep their mouths shut and they were home free, the fact they each had their own attorneys was their insurance neither would break or give testmony regarding the other. It was also their stay out of jail free cards!! It worked!!! That is my opinion

 

[UKGuy]

I also wonder why Patsy's side didn't have lawyers for themselves,as JR's side did.I think he hired them all,but still,that's odd (was he afraid LE was going to say there was a conspiracy to kill her on his side of the family? ..even his ex wife had her own lawyer).But we've never heard a thing about her dad or her side having lawyers or not.And only PR's 2 sisters flew in that night.I haven't read that her mom did.

JMO8778

Separate lawyers mean someone has something to defend, since the separation means no shared evidence, one or both parties were allowing for the I was there, but he did it defense?

Burke Ramsey holds the key to this case, its his testimony that will either corroborate the parents version of events, or deny them?


.

 

[UKGuy]

A wife cannot be compelled or legally forced to testify against her husband and the opposite is true as well regarding the other spouse The Ramseys were well aware of this and so was the DA All they had to do is keep their mouths shut and they were home free, the fact they each had their own attorneys was their insurance neither would break or give testmony regarding the other. It was also their stay out of jail free cards!! It worked!!! That is my opinion

coloradokares,
Sure something along those lines, with separate lawyers, this was a possible defense against any plea bargaining. imo the questioning of Patsy was the focus of attempts to turn her, she knew this, so mostly replied in kind.

.

 

[lilywhite]

John Ramsey was CEO of Access Graphics, a very succesful company. His wife was the former West Virginie...a trophy wife. They were involved in church and several organizations. The family had lots to lose.

I suppose that's true. That's another concept that's alien to me, I guess -- neither me nor any of my family has any kind of "public" reputation to protect, so I guess I don't know how important that might become, or how far one might go to protect it.

There's so much about this that can't ever be known.

 

[lilywhite]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249
My own opinion, formed from reading ST's book and Nedra's comments. It was never stated as fact anywhere, but there had been some things written about PR's father detesting fat people, and the fact that his two beauty queen daughters (especially Aunt Pam) got fat. It was suggested that it was to turn him off. I can't remember where I read it. It was also suggested that could account for PR ignoring signs of abuse of her own daughter.

HMMMM....wow!

It's true -- I was a slender child for ten years and then BAM, started putting on weight like crazy -- and that is the EXACT reason.

 

[Ames]

It's true -- I was a slender child for ten years and then BAM, started putting on weight like crazy -- and that is the EXACT reason.

So sorry to hear that Lily, and that is so sad!!!

 

[BOESP]

JMO8778

Separate lawyers mean someone has something to defend, since the separation means no shared evidence, one or both parties were allowing for the I was there, but he did it defense?

Burke Ramsey holds the key to this case, its his testimony that will either corroborate the parents version of events, or deny them?


.

UKYGuy, Over the weekend I read several old threads here concerning Burke. Some interesting ideas were brought up in the old discussions. One, Burke was not cleared and the only time him being cleared was mentioned was Hunter being caught off-guard during an interview. Apparently, Colorado law does not allow any mention of a crime committed by someone under ten years old. According to old messages here, such crimes, in the eyes of the law, are as if they were never committed, all records are sealed and no one can mention anything about it under penalty of law. It was interesting reading.

On the other hand, Steve Thomas's theory is that Patsy did it. He stated he felt sorry for Burke because he had been unfairly subjected to suspicion (my paraphrasing).