UPDATE- Bin Laden is Dead-President spoke

[Nova]

Bravo!

And I would like to add to that sentiment that the international community has no problem picking up the phone to call us for aid whenever they face trouble. And we are always there to provide.

:sigh:

We Americans repeat this canard over and over again, as if it's still 1947.

Yes, we have been generous in the past. Whether we will be able to be generous in the future remains to be seen.

 

[Nova]

And gitana1 - after all that we send them BILLIONS of dollars a year in aid! Boy o boy that money sure could be put to good use over here helping OUR people and OUR country - dontcha think?

We're paying them for military intelligence, access to battlefields in Afghanistan and to prop up a military dictatorship because if it falls, we have no way of knowing who will end up with Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

Not one penny that we spend in Pakistan is spent out of the goodness of our hearts. If it were, we'd spend less in Pakistan and more in Bangladesh.

 

[Nova]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42880435/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid


WASHINGTON — Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

The problem with such claims is that once you've tortured a suspect, there's no way to go back and test what you might have learned without torturing him.

Leon Panetta was part of the administration that endorsed the use of water-boarding. He is not an unbiased source here.

 

[Nova]

Seems like this is trying to have it both ways....either we are special which is why we're supposed to be "better than them" or we're not in which case it shouldn't matter anyway.

Oh, Charlie, I know your mama raised you the same as mine raised me:

To be lofty in our goals, but humble about our accomplishments.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Did you read the article?

 

[gitana1]

Who is "they"?

The US has been gathering intelligence on that location for atleast a year by all accounts correct? So who are these high ranking government officals that were aiding him? Surely the US knows who has been coming and going from the "mansion"...right? The evidence of such dealings & aid will be found on the seized harddrives or papers...right? Pakistan has rounded up more terrorists than any other nation thus far in the fight against terrorism. So.....why make such allegations without proof?

That was us that rounded up those terrorists or at least us who orchestrated the round ups. Pakistan is thought by many to talk out of both sides of its mouth. Give a little to the US government and then turn around and aid the enemy.

I don't claim to know the answers. But I do know...... I am not willing to be a sheep. I am not going to blindly swallow what I am being spoon fed by the MSM without some evidence and getting some answers to some tough questions. ALL I am getting now is conflicting accounts and allegations. That is not enough to claim another country...a government that has been helpful thus far....was in bed with Bin Ladin. I am not going to do it and neither should anyone else. IMO

My response in bold.

While the killing of Osama bin Laden is being enthusiastically celebrated throughout America and parts of the world, to say that such merriment is out of order will surely be considered heresy. Nonetheless, I'm saying it -- because it needs to be said. What I am tempted to say is this: Get a grip, celebrators. Have you so little decency?

I do understand how those who have suffered from the events of 9/11 may feel relieved, even happy, to have "closure" after 10 years of waiting for "justice to be done" -- and I don't quarrel with such feelings. Closure is a natural yearning and can certainly help people move on from serious trauma. And feelings are feelings. If you feel joyful, you feel joyful.

But celebration is not in order, no matter what your feelings of elation. Here's why...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-gerloff/the-psychology-of-revenge_b_856184.html

There was also a great article about how religious people are taught to react to such an event.

It will be very interesting to see the reactions of people and posters here when the ICA verdict comes down. And even more interesting after the penalty phase. Have to wonder how these two separate reactions to two completely different scenerios will play out.

I wondered about that myself. I will not rejoice if casey is sentenced to death or if she is executed. I will feel satisfied that a dangerous person will never be free if she is sentenced to life in prison. But, I'm against the death penalty as a state sanctioned sentence for the most part, even though I believe some people deserve to die. I just don't think the government should make that decision in most cases.

This is different. This is like taking out Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin. When you are faced with admitted mass murderers who have others helping them to hide and to fight to the death, a mission like this is warranted, IMO. I think it would have been foolhardy to try to take him alive.

Supposed leak of pic. Not sure how accurate it is

http://i.imgur.com/voJZT.jpg

It looks real but not as gory as I they are saying so who knows?

Me too! we have the death penalty here in the USA for a good reason. We just took it out over in Pakistan. I'm not going to listen to the naysayers who say we should be ashamed of ourselves for celebrating. Heck, I had a nice glace of wine and said "cheers to you - you SOB. Have fun in hell".

Blessings to all victims of 9/11, and love and strength to all our heroes still fighting to this day.

MOO

Mel

I did celebrate. But I wasn't exuberant or wild with joy. It was more shock, then relief, then satisfaction, then pride at our intelligence efforts and of the incredible Seals that got the job done and finally, yes, a small sense of gladness. I understand why some feel great joy but I do think Obama's reaction, sober and serious and reflective, may be more appropriate. I guess I can understand the feelings on both sides of this issue.

The "International Community" can kiss my squirrel.

Does the international community ever consider our views? Like when England released the Lockerbie Scotland bomber so he could go home to die and even admitted it was because of a deal they struck? All those families of those victims here - boy were they upset.

IMHO I believe its time we stop worrying about how the international community views us. We have played grandpa and papa and "the USA to the rescue" to all these countries for decades. I get tired of seeing Americans donate and invest millions of dollars in countries overseas when our own children are starving and our own people need help.

We done pizzed off AQ with killing him - if releasing a photo of him dead is what it takes - then do it. I don't think its gonna make them any madder then they already are.

Well, you know guys, if we were total isolationists, got our military out of every country where we are at war, or where we have military bases, stopped our support of Israel, stopped arming rebels who later sometimes turn on us (like Osama), and lived as an island nation, letting NO one immigrate here, then maybe it would not matter what the international community thought of us. But the level of interchange between nations is beyond comprehension. Our economies, our trade, our security, everything, it's all inextricably linked and what happens in one country affects the rest.

We have seriously complex treaties of all manner with other countries that are strategically designed to make sure we have allies in case of war, have strategic military installations around the world and can have advantages when it come to trade, without which, we would crumble as can been seen by North Korea. We are now truly a global economy and virtually no nation on earth can survive economically without international trade.

So, when another nation hosts our military on an American base in a foreign country, such base strategic in a military sense when it comes to possible threats, the opinion of the international community is important.

And when we decide to go to war with a dangerous country and need military assistance from our allies, the opinion of the international community matters.

When we receive intelligence that a bad guy is hiding in another country and need the assistance of that country's government, international opinion can be crucial.

When our corporations want to survive in the face of incredible competition and are seeking the lowest bidder to build and staff a factory in another country (which I don't like, but...) international attitudes towards us are significant.

It is the opinion of the international community that allowed anti-American sentiment to fester in certain regions and to allow organizations like the Taliban and Al Qaeda swell their ranks. Our government is wise to not want to add to the anti-western sentiment in some areas that is used by evil to brainwash the young, hopeless or disconnected youth around the world who are just looking for something to believe in or a target for their rage.

Finally, you asked Wise Old Owl, if the international community ever considers our opinion. Well, of course they do, evidenced by all the allies we have, all the treaties we have entered into with other countries, all the world leaders who meet with our leaders to exchange ideas on multiple topics that affect day to day life and all the nations who have been participating in our wars against Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes, indeed, how we appear to the international community is very, very important and has definite ramifications. So, I think we are wise to at least have a conversation about how we allow others to view us.

And gitana1 - after all that we send them BILLIONS of dollars a year in aid! Boy o boy that money sure could be put to good use over here helping OUR people and OUR country - dontcha think?

Yeah, I don't think it's money well spent at all. I know they have nukes there and I suspect the U.S. gives money as a means of having some level of control over certain things there, like having a freer reign to enter their air space, to train their military or to obtain intelligence about possible coups that could result in extremist Jihadists taking over the military and having access to the nukes. But I don't think our money has helped. It seems like a game to the officials there. It seems very corrupt and we don't seem to be getting the benefit from it that we should.

I mean, the Taliban had almost total control over much of their country recently and was gaining by the day. I guess I'd have to research a bit more to see if our money helped stem that tide at all. But in the meantime, I am very upset that we deal with the corrupt and I do feel Pakistan is corrupt and a huge supporter of terror. So, I want my money back.

 

[Fairy1]

I'm sure he had ways to ensure AQ would get it. It was a cause near and dear to his heart.
Hope we can stop that.

That's what concerns me. And it concerns me they haven't been able to freeze or seize his funds way before now.

Many have equated bin Laden's death to cutting off the head of the snake. I disagree. He was nothing more than the tail of a donkey's a$$. IMO, the money is the head of the snake.

I really have to wonder where all his money is and who is controlling/protecting it...

 

[Nova]

Did you read the article?

No, I was just addressing the source. In fact, your advice was apt: Panetta admits exactly what I said, that there is no way to know whether the same info could have been acquired without using torture and that this incident will not settle the debate on the use of waterboarding.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Personally, if I have to choose between a nation that abstains from torture while Bin Laden is holed up in an ugly concrete building in Attabad v. a nation that uses torture and kills Bin Laden, I would opt for the former.

I know many here will disagree.

 

[gitana1]

Nova, friend, I was typing my long, last post when you posted all of your recent ones and I can see we had some of the same ideas. I gareew ith your thinking.

The problem with such claims is that once you've tortured a suspect, there's no way to go back and test what you might have learned without torturing him.

Leon Panetta was part of the administration that endorsed the use of water-boarding. He is not an unbiased source here.

Yeah, we don't know exactly, yet, from a government source, to my knowledge, who gave us the information about the courier's identity and how that info was obtained. Was it someone strapped to a board crying out info to get the torture to stop or was it someone tired of being locked up, or with a change of heart about their ideology as time passed, or someone hoping information would lead to lighter sentence? I don't think we know yet, for sure.

But torture is torture. It is what third world hell holes do. It used to be the thing that separated us from barbarians.

And think of this. If we embrace "enhanced" interrogation techniques, or torture, what happens to all the people picked up who might have been 15 year olds handed a gun and compelled to fight on pain of death, who know really nothing? What about people who were caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and have nothing to do with any of this? Such a person could be tortured repeatedly and unable to divulge a thing. I am very relieved that Osama was caught but I believe it was years of incredibly hard work, high tech equipment and extremely brave, superbly trained warriors who got the job done here, not torture.

:sigh:

We Americans repeat this canard over and over again, as if it's still 1947.

Yes, we have been generous in the past. Whether we will be able to be generous in the future remains to be seen.

And we too, have asked and have received aid from numerous countries who have enabled the successes we have had thus far in our wars, via the use of their troops and equipment. Their boys have died in Iraq and Afghanistan just as ours have.

Allies help one another which is the whole point. We didn't save the occupied nations of Europe during WWII. We didn't liberate France, etc. It was The United States and Britain and Canada and Russia, etc., and all the noble resistance fighters in the occupied nations, like my Dutch grandparents who risked death, death camps and leaving their small children to be orphans as they undertook highly dangerous missions to provide intelligence to the allies, to kill as many Nazis as possible in covert attempts, to save persecuted people and to feed their starving countryman and finally, to inform and inspire a demoralized public of the reality of the war effort that the Nazi's censored. So, we did not do it alone. It was all of us together.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

adnoid, whence comes this idea that other countries never consider us or how we feel? We're the most powerful country on earth, with an armed forces as large as the next 20 largest forces combined!

Other countries have no choice but to "keep us in mind." That doesn't mean they will always agree with us.

BBM

UUUmmmmm - no we aren't. When our soldiers are sent to Korea they are given paper and pencil on the plane and told to write their wills. The Korean army is so big, they could march right over South Korea and us (as we are even much bigger than the S. Korean military) and just keep right on going.

In fact, Sunday night before the news broke both DH and I were afraid that we had detected missle launches from Korea.

The only reason other countries are "keeping us in mind" is because we buy so much oil. Its the oil countries that are the most powerful now and as soon as our "line of credit" runs out - well.........let's just say its going to get real interesting around the end of August this year. We are broke. And we are going to stay that way until our "government" decides that we need to take care of our own first.

The job market is still in the toilet here. Its not that the jobs ain't out there - they are - but unless you speak Spanish or are latino here - you ain't getting one. I live this everyday. I refuse to go to the grocery store on Fridays because of the lines. The women go first with hundreds of $$$ and pay with that food stamp card. The men are right behind them and buy nothing but beer. Then they hit the service desk and send $$$$$$$$ western union back home. They pay no taxes - they live in safe houses - I have one right next door to me. Their children attend our public schools at our expense. Ok - that's enough I have to stop but there is so much more.

Then when I watch TV and see this multi-millionaire from the USA go over to some third world country and spend millions to design and develop laptop computers that can be re-charged by just winding them up - because these villages don't even have electricity. Now, a child living in a dirt floor shack with no electricity really needs a laptop - I'm sure that's quite high on Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs. Our kids need laptops.

Then you have people like Oprah Winfrey. Born and raised poor in Chicago. Is a self-made woman and one of the richest women in the world. What does she do? She goes over to Africa and spends millions to build a school for girls. I'm quite sure there are many many many underprivledged poor girls in Chicago that could sure use a hand up. (And now her school has been rocked by nasty scandal after nasty scandal).

Its time we stood up - as Americans - and take care of our own. We need to quit worrying about the rest of the world and being politically correct.

Like NG said tonight about Pakistan. They say they're our allies. They say they help us. So, we say thankx and oh, here's a couple billion dollars to help you out. Then they harbor OBL for six years - because someone knew if he was found those big American dollars would stop flowing. Enough already. If we are the most powerful country in the world we need to take a stand of our own and help our own first.

 

[Tiki]

"As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore."

From a speech by Democratic Congressmember Barbara Lee. the only lawmaker in either chamber of Congress to vote against the 2001 resolution authorizing the use of force in Afghanistan.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh_sxilhyV0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh_sxilhyV0[/ame]

 

[Fairy1]

Yeah, we don't know exactly, yet, from a government source, to my knowledge, who gave us the information about the courier's identity and how that info was obtained. Was it someone strapped to a board crying out info to get the torture to stop or was it someone tired of being locked up, or with a change of heart about their ideology as time passed, or someone hoping information would lead to lighter sentence? I don't think we know yet, for sure.

Snipped....

Yeah, we do. I believe it was Brenner that said yesterday that the water-boarding of the first to spill the nickname of the courier took place months before and that he actually spilled it later during a standard interrogation session. IIRC, other sources corroborated the nickname over time.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Ya know its funny.

We have all done this. We have a friend or family member that wears something "kooky" or does some strange thing to their hair or acts crazy now and then. So, we say "what will the neighbors think"? Or "what will people say"? I know a whole bunch of you have had your mom say those words to you at one time or another. And what is the usual reply?

I don't care what people think. Or - if they don't like it, they don't have to look at it.

Or sometimes its the other way around - someone close to you is embarrassed. You, in trying to comfort and console them and make them feel better will say "Who cares what people think?" Or "it don't matter - they don't know you".

So, how is it that we consistently say in our daily lives that it really doesn't matter what people think of you or say about you BUT in the global outlook it ALL HINGES on what other countries or other rulers think about us or say about us? Huh?

Then which is it? Do we care about what other people think or do we not care?

 

[Charlie09]

Ya know its funny.

We have all done this. We have a friend or family member that wears something "kooky" or does some strange thing to their hair or acts crazy now and then. So, we say "what will the neighbors think"? Or "what will people say"? I know a whole bunch of you have had your mom say those words to you at one time or another. And what is the usual reply?

I don't care what people think. Or - if they don't like it, they don't have to look at it.

Or sometimes its the other way around - someone close to you is embarrassed. You, in trying to comfort and console them and make them feel better will say "Who care what people think?" Or "it don't matter - they don't know you".

So, how is it that we consistently say in our daily lives that is really doesn't matter what people think of you or say about you BUT in the global outlook it ALL HINGES on what other countries or other rulers think about us or say about us? Huh?

Then which is it? Do we care about what other people think or do we not care?

Don't care -

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Don't care -

But there have been some good points made as to why we should care about what others think of us. Ya know - the allies - so we can have strategic military bases - eyes in the sky - safe passage for our ships - etc. etc.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

So where is the proof we got this guy?

 

[Charlie09]

Oh, Charlie, I know your mama raised you the same as mine raised me:

To be lofty in our goals, but humble about our accomplishments.

You made me smile (a little). Truth is we were raised very differently - we both post enough personal things to have a glimpse into how we were raised. I had a dad who was a Korean Vet, who teared up at the National Anthem every time it played, who taught his only daughter to play just as hard as the boys, and he taught his boys and me - don't throw the first punch, but by God - you throw the last one. I wish very much that I could have called him the other night and said "they got him dad...they got him" There are more behind him, but since they aren't the ones volunteering for suicide missions, they know they have to work much harder and staying alive.

This is not to say you don't love your country very much - I know you do. I know too that in real life, we may even find common ground, just not about politics or religion Where we do truly differ is what we perceive as acceptable or non-acceptability of political correctness, and what I consider completely un-equal equality. I think there is no finer country on the planet. We have gotten away from our founder's constitutional republic - but we have not lost our sense of indivdualism or pride in being American.

I would not be surprised to find out that there was a concerted effort to get the people to the White House for the jublilation the other night. I think that's different than the pride no one will take away from my heart, that the finest of the finest got their guy. I guess there's just a little bit of Old Western Justice that I feel was achieved the other night. I won't apologize for that pride. I didn't feel like setting off fireworks, I just felt pride in our military, and a little sad that it still didn't bring Daniel Pearl back.

 

[Charlie09]

So where is the proof we got this guy?

This is purely speculation on my part....knowing the two men I do, one special ops, one former navy seal....we'd have heard otherwise. I truly believe they got him....and if you see my posts in the political pavillion - there's MUCH i disbelieve from our government.

I think it has to do with the guy in the oval office who doesn't want to offend muslims by showing the body. Again - pure speculation on my part.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I think he's dead too. But I do want to see the photo.

It's not like it would be the first time we were shown photos of a dead terrorist.

We saw photos of SH and his sons.

 

[scandi]

We're paying them for military intelligence, access to battlefields in Afghanistan and to prop up a military dictatorship because if it falls, we have no way of knowing who will end up with Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

Not one penny that we spend in Pakistan is spent out of the goodness of our hearts. If it were, we'd spend less in Pakistan and more in Bangladesh.

Hi Nova, It is appalling to me we give any money to Pakistan and I wonder when it started and why? I know we give allot of money to Israel as well.

I always thought it was decided to give these monies to help insure that a democratic political system would be nurtured in those countries. If the leader of Pakistan is less than honorable, do you know why we continue to assist them like this? Do you know which president started sending money to Pakistan? Clinton?

Ta