GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #4

[bsk]

Gone for lunch. Direct is finished. Defense said cross will take about an hour I believe.

Nothing about the book is coming in. If the state knew that would be the case as I presume they did, it's kind of sleazy to plant a seed in the jurors' minds.

 

[Bravo]

So if the Jury accepts Perpers findings I guess the question becomes did she drown because of the drugs in her system or did she have some help. Based on the amount of water in Michele I would say she had some help :jail: IMO
A punctuation key is not working. Prolly chip crumbs. So please excuse.

 

[minor4th]

I was seriously tuning out during Perper's testimony. Can anyone give the down and dirty on his conclusions?

 

[Italy]

It would be interesting to camp out at the local Barnes and Nobel and see how many people buy the book, "When Doctors Kill" by Joshua Perper during the court's recess.

 

[Bravo]

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the updates!

Now who broke WS? :snooty: Sheesh, its been like trying to get into Ft. Knox FGS! :banghead:

I hear ya

 

[Zuri]

I was seriously tuning out during Perper's testimony. Can anyone give the down and dirty on his conclusions?

What I understood him to say was that the myocarditis was mild and may have been caused by CPR, an arrhythmia could not be determined, and due to the lab blood values and weight of Michelle's lungs, drowning was the COD with drug toxicity. Did I get that right? I may have combined the cardiologist and Dr. Perper 's testimony.

 

[CUCKOOHEAD]

Gone for lunch. Direct is finished. Defense said cross will take about an hour I believe.

Nothing about the book is coming in. If the state knew that would be the case as I presume they did, it's kind of sleazy to plant a seed in the jurors' minds.

If the State didn't acknowledge the book I think the defense could have made some strong insinuations that Perper has capitalized off this case and is in it for the money and/or notoriety. IMO the State wants the jury to understand that there was nothing to hide.

 

[Bravo]

It's too bad the level of drugs in her blood couldn't be determined due to dilution and not knowing the dosage and times the drugs were ingested.

For sure. IIRC the fact that drugs were still in her system spoke volumes. Ones that typically leave the bloodstream quickly. We got the Ambien which I think is huge. Huge. And at a therapeutic level. Nobody takes Ambien unless they want to sleep. Nobody takes Ambien and draws a bath. Red flag there.
ETA Nobody takes Ambien and jacks themselves up with all the other drugs

 

[minor4th]

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the updates!

Now who broke WS? :snooty: Sheesh, its been like trying to get into Ft. Knox FGS! :banghead:

:seeya:

 

[CUCKOOHEAD]

So if the Jury accepts Perpers findings I guess the question becomes did she drown because of the drugs in her system or did she have some help. Based on the amount of water in Michele I would say she had some help :jail: IMO
A punctuation key is not working. Prolly chip crumbs. So please excuse.

Add to that the fact that several people commented on open wounds (from surgery) were bleeding or that the water looked bloody or red and I think some force was used to hold her head under water and that pressure opened recent surgery cuts on Michele's face.

IMO She fought as hard as she could in her drugged state.

 

[Zuri]

I read articles about the biology and pathophysiology of drowning yesterday. OMG what an absolutely horrible way to die. Dr. Perper's belief on the mechanism of drowning may not be scientifically accepted, but it makes a lot of sense to me. There may be aspects where other scientists differ, but the two are not far off from each other. JMO

 

[Bravo]

7 cups of water :banghead::banghead: She was breathing and inhaling water when he placed her in the tub :furious:

 

[seattlechiquita]

Add to that the fact that several people commented on open wounds (from surgery) were bleeding or that the water looked bloody or red and I think some force was used to hold her head under water and that pressure opened recent surgery cuts on Michele's face.

IMO She fought as hard as she could in her drugged state.

That is what I think happened.

 

[Bravo]

Add to that the fact that several people commented on open wounds (from surgery) were bleeding or that the water looked bloody or red and I think some force was used to hold her head under water and that pressure opened recent surgery cuts on Michele's face.

IMO She fought as hard as she could in her drugged state.

I do too. Heartbreaking to be looking into the eyes of somebody you loved knowing they are about to murder you.

 

[Italy]

My thumbnail assessment of Perper's testimony:

1. Indications of Myocarditis were not present in the postmortem slides examined by Perper nor was there an indication in blood analysis from her pre-op tests
2. No enzymes present in tests performed 8 days prior to death that would indicate heart inflammation or Acute Myocarditis (e.g. infection, among other causes)
3. Weight of the lungs postmortem was greater than the normal aerated weight plus the weight of the total volume of liquid administered therapeutically, thus suggesting the saturation was accomplished by inhalation of water. That measurement combined with volume of water regurgitated when EMTs were present cause Perper to conclude drowning.
4. Impossible to state exact time of death - Factors including ambient air, and in this case water, temperature impact an exact determination. Between 8 - 11:30a.
5. No ME can say that acute heart arrhythmia was cause as there is no way to measure the heartbeat postmortem. Thus cannot say that the heartbeat was irregular based on postmortem examination
6. He stated that his methods and analysis are consistent with current medical practices.
7. Blood concentrations (hemodilution -- ??) were diluted by water (water which entered thru the small vessels in the inside lining of the lung chambers & passing to the heart) and that dilution would have also diluted the concentration of drugs in her blood )as measured postmortem)

 

[Zuri]

The healing facial wounds may have contributed to the blood in the water, but I think the majority of it came from the lungs. IMO Michelle was so sedated, she could not fight back. She could not protect her airway, meaning, she breathed in/ingested water. Extreme sedation prevents you from doing that.

For example, if you try holding your breath under water, and you hold it too long, you surface gasping for air. I think Michelle, unconscious in a tub with her gag reflex impaired, was purposefully drowned. I have not heard of any defensive wounds, so this has led me to this conclusion. JMO

 

[Zuri]

:goodpost:

My thumbnail assessment of Perper's testimony:

1. Indications of Myocarditis were not present in the postmortem slides examined by Perper nor was there an indication in blood analysis from her pre-op tests
2. No enzymes present in tests performed 8 days prior to death that would indicate heart inflammation or Acute Myocarditis (e.g. infection, among other causes)
3. Weight of the lungs postmortem was greater than the normal aerated weight plus the weight of the total volume of liquid administered therapeutically, thus suggesting the saturation was accomplished by inhalation of water. That measurement combined with volume of water regurgitated when EMTs were present cause Perper to conclude drowning.
4. Impossible to state exact time of death - Factors including ambient air, and in this case water, temperature impact an exact determination. Between 8 - 11:30a.
5. No ME can say that acute heart arrhythmia was cause as there is no way to measure the heartbeat postmortem. Thus cannot say that the heartbeat was irregular based on postmortem examination
6. He stated that his methods and analysis are consistent with current medical practices.
7. Blood concentrations (hemodilution -- ??) were diluted by water (water which entered thru the small vessels in the inside lining of the lung chambers & passing to the heart) and that dilution would have also diluted the concentration of drugs in her blood )as measured postmortem)

Excellent synopsis. Thank you for posting this.

 

[minor4th]

The healing facial wounds may have contributed to the blood in the water, but I think the majority of it came from the lungs. IMO Michelle was so sedated, she could not fight back. She could not protect her airway, meaning, she breathed in/ingested water. Extreme sedation prevents you from doing that.

For example, if you try holding your breath under water, and you hold it too long, you surface gasping for air. I think Michelle, unconscious in a tub with her gag reflex impaired, was purposefully drowned. I have not heard of any defensive wounds, so this has led me to this conclusion. JMO

Do lungs bleed under these circumstances? TIA

 

[bsk]

If the State didn't acknowledge the book I think the defense could have made some strong insinuations that Perper has capitalized off this case and is in it for the money and/or notoriety. IMO the State wants the jury to understand that there was nothing to hide.

Excellent point! I hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[Harmony 2]

The healing facial wounds may have contributed to the blood in the water, but I think the majority of it came from the lungs. IMO Michelle was so sedated, she could not fight back. She could not protect her airway, meaning, she breathed in/ingested water. Extreme sedation prevents you from doing that.

For example, if you try holding your breath under water, and you hold it too long, you surface gasping for air. I think Michelle, unconscious in a tub with her gag reflex impaired, was purposefully drowned. I have not heard of any defensive wounds, so this has led me to this conclusion. JMO

Was Michele's hair all wet? I thought I read or someone testified only the ends were wet... I might be wrong...