UT - Suicides or Serial Killer's Victims? Three Utah bodies found in burning cars

[SuziQ]

It's a puzzling pattern of deaths: three people found incinerated in their cars, on March 9th, March 20th and April 2nd, in widely separated parts of Utah. Police investigators have suggested suicide, but some relatives insist it's a series of horrific murders.

The relatives have no concrete evidence to back up their suspicions, and they've learned nothing that connects the three victims. The family we spoke with has been at odds with the FLDS polygamy group, but they doubt that's a factor. The deaths were unusual and horrible. Three late-night vehicle fires so intense they obliterated evidence and identities. (More and video at link)

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=6069720

 

[SuziQ]

Just food for thought, another youth volunteer connection. Lorin's dad and mom are former FLDS. They started a youth org called Diversity. Curiously, when googling Lorin's name last week, I found alot of Lorin Fischer's with different middle initials that are on both sides of the fence with the FLDS issue. And the ones who left the cult are not well liked.

Another thing to note is the FLDS town of Colorado City is is also in Southern Utah where the last body was found. When the Diversity talks about exiling, it's actually on a dark road miles from nowhere.

CHILDREN OF DIVERSITY
aka “The Lost Boys"
The Diversity Foundation is currently assisting the young men (aka “Lost Boys&#8221 and women who are former members of the polygamist community in southern Utah known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (“FLDS&#8221

Beginning in 2002 the FLDS church began exiling young men between the ages of 14 and 23 for infractions that were in violation of church tenets. These infractions could be talking to a girl, wearing a short sleeved t-shirt, listening to music or watching television. Young women who have exited the FLDS community are doing so because they seek to live in a monogamous society. Both men and women lack an education that is chronologically correct. While living in the FLDS community they might receive an education until the eighth grade at which time they begin to work for wages that are given as tithe to the FLDS church. (more at the below link)
http://www.smilesfordiversity.org/cod.php

 

[SuziQ]

If you google around with Dan Fischer, you'll find there is definitely hatred of him by the FLDS. I don't know if it has anything to do with anything. Just thought I would throw that tidbit out there for future reference if needed.

 

[Salem]

Have you seen any connection with Greg Nelson and the FLDS? Very interesting.

I have to question the intelligence of LE here - who would set themselves on fire? And 3 in one month, actually a matter of weeks. Not happening. Commen sense would tell you that.

And SusieQ - I have to agree that at a minimum another vehicle has to be involved. I suppose it could happen with out another person, but not without another vehicle. Given the shape of the evidence, I don't suppose the ME can tell if the victims were already deceased before the fires? If they could examine the lungs, they might be able to figure this out?

Salem

 

[SuziQ]

The car in Southern Utah was actually near the town of Virgin, which is about 12 miles east of Hurricane. Virgin is about half an hour or so away from Colorado City.

http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090405/NEWS01/90405007/-1/NEWSFRONT2

(snip)
The unidentified remains were discovered inside a red Kia Sportage on
Smith’s Mesa Road near Virgin Thursday, and police have yet to release the
identity of the single body.
Incidents such as this are rare, said Lt. Don Hutson of the Salt Lake County
Sheriff’s Office, but his department is currently investigating two similar
suspicious deaths from last month.

 

[SuziQ]

Salem, I'm not seeing a connection between Greg and the FLDS...yet. Hopefully his sister and KY Sleuth can see if there are any connections and similarities between their lost loved ones.

I wish I knew the answer to what the ME knows.

It's good to see the media reporting on this now.

 

[SuziQ]

Community members and family friends banded together in Maysville Sunday to support the family of 2008 Mason County High School graduate Zachary Ruble.

On April 2, police in Utah found what has been identified as Ruble's burned out car in a remote location on Smith's Mesa Road in southern Utah, his father Jay Ruble said Sunday. (more at link)

http://www.maysville-online.com/articles/2009/04/05/local_news/doc49d9613f4a8f3044985993.txt

 

[fran]

My sincere condolences to ginan69 and Ky Sleuth on your loss.

I don't know IF and how these cases are connected, but I'll be looking around for the next few days to see what I can find.

I would hope that LE would, at the least, investigate ALL these as if a homicide, talking to all friends, family, co-workers, professors and SW the individual's computers they had access to.

Each one of these cases is baffling, IMO. Something is wrong here. Three young men in a short period of time and in close proximity, don't just turn up in a burned out vehicle in the middle of nowhere. NOT without a reason. Coincidence?

JMHO
fran

 

[SuziQ]

New info this morning. A SLC Homicide is looking into this. And a detective aknowledges a pattern:

http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090406/NEWS01/904060330&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

(snips)
With yet another similar death in Washington County, "It is clearly a pattern," Hutson said.
"I don't know that we can jump to any conclusions because of the pattern," he said. "Our homicide investigators have been in contact with Washington County detectives, discussing the similarities."
The Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office has yet to classify the two deaths as murder, suicide or accidental.
"We have not ruled in any direction," he said.

Adams said he could not comment on the location of the body within the vehicle, but Hutson said both bodies in Salt Lake County were found in the vehicles' passenger compartments, although he did not provide details.
Investigators on the scene of the Washington County incident found evidence that the vehicle's license plates were not removed as some had thought, Adams said

 

[SuziQ]

A post in the comment section. Ignore the horrible troll posting on there.

http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbc...06.thespectrum.G3904060330.article.NEWS01&s=a

I happen to know the presumed victim in the Kia. (It's his car.) A few words to describe him. Eagle Scout, academic scholarship recipient, brother, son, great guy, straight arrow. He apparently drove to the St. George area to check out the possibility of a summer job in one of the area parks or to hike/camp. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Goodoldsis - your attitude is more than disgusting. Most people don't wish death upon others.
4/6/2009 9:18:44 AM

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You know, if these are crimes that are connected, the remote locations of where the bodies were found, lead me to believe that there would have to be a second vehicle and second person involved.

I keep wondering if this is the work of a serial killer. So all of these locations were remote? I get this eerie feeling we may be dealing with someone like Hilton, in Georgia, when he murdered the young hiker, that he kidnapped off of Blood Mountain.

The family of the last deceased person said that he loved to go to that area and thought it was a beautiful place so he must have loved nature. I wonder if the others were nature lovers too? Or were they forced to drive there at gunpoint?

Could this person, if it is a serial killer, kill them, burn their bodies and the car up to destroy the evidence and move on 25 or 30 miles? Most serial killers are nomadic to some degree and that is why they are hard to catch. They have no link to the victims and shortly after, move on out of the location.

Something is just not right about these three men dying all from being horrible burned up in their vehicle. It seems with each one of them the fire was furious and did great damage to them as well as their vehicles. I wonder if they have checked for accelerants and hot spots to see where the gasoline was splashed onto the vehicle before the fire was started. The fire investigator will be able to tell if the gas was thrown on the outside of the vehicle or inside and where most of it landed.... as the worst damage will most likely be the point of origin.

It may have happened before and been suicide but I still believe it is an extremely rare way to commit suicide and I sure don't think that three men from one state in this short period of time took this route, which has to be one of the most painful deaths there is.

My heart and prayers are with all their families and friends. May they all find the answers they need and deserve to know.

imo

 

[ginan69]

My brother (Greg Nelson) is not connected with the FLDS, in fact we arent even LDS. There aren't any connections that I can see between the three. Were the other victims found in the back seat with the propane tanks in the front seat--were there propane tanks involved in the other two??? My brother's life wasnt perfect but I still can't see him choosing this way to die. I am so afraid they are going to rule all of these as suicide and not REALLY investigate. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the victim's family and friends.

 

[SuziQ]

ginan69, thanks for info. Do you know if Greg had been recently volunteering with any youth orgs?

I'm hearing conficting info on the propane tanks. In reading between the lines in some articles, it sounds like they were the small bottle types used on camp stoves. What size tanks were these?

Below is a tough question you absolutely do not have to answer if you do not want to.
Also can you elaborate on if the Medical examiner was able to tell whether Greg was alive or dead when the fire happened? Can you reveal anything about the autopsy?

 

[fran]

OhMyGosh!

Connected?

fran


Investigation Continues Into Body Found In Burned Out Car

Posted: 8:12 PM Apr 5, 2009
Last Updated: 2:32 PM Apr 6, 2009
Reporter: Wendy Enneking
Email Address: [email protected]


CRAB ORCHARD, Ky. (AP) - Kentucky State Police report the discovery of a body inside a burning car.

Police said the Lincoln County Fire Department responded to a reported car fire in Crab Orchard before dawn Sunday and found the remains in a car along Ky. 39 North.

Troopers said the person's identity wasn't immediately evident and the cause of the fire wasn't known, according to The Courier-Journal.

An autopsy will be conducted in Frankfort.


http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/42504782.html

 

[SuziQ]

ginan69, pardon all my questions.....

Can you tell what you know about the last known sighting of your brother? For instance, you mentioned the 8 hour missing in the timeline.

 

[SuziQ]

Fran, that is downright freaky!

ETA: and this one was in the backseat as well.

 

[fran]

Fran, that is downright freaky!

I think it said the person was found in the passenger seat. Also, they said it's not the registered owner.


fran

PS............map from last Utah case to KY case........http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=38.48169&lon=-98.905565&zoom=5&q1=hurrican, ut&q2=crab orchard, ky

 

[SuziQ]

I think it said the person was found in the passenger seat. Also, they said it's not the registered owner.


fran

PS............map from last Utah case to KY case........http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=38.48169&lon=-98.905565&zoom=5&q1=hurrican, ut&q2=crab orchard, ky

Good find. Once you catch I-70 from 1-15, it's a straight shot to where the SUV was found.

Now if the KY SUV is from Utah....I'm gonna freak.

Did you ever look at Smith's Mesa Road by Virgin Utah? You have to take another road named Mesa Road to even get to it. Talk about remote. I've been to Kolob Canyon and never knew about that road. I don't think it's even paved.

 

[ginan69]

Greg was last seen at my dads home in Holladay, Utah at about 2 or 2:30 in the afternoon (Friday). Noone had seen or heard from him. He had made arrangements prior to that friday to pick up his daughter that next day (Saturday). The propane tanks were the big ones -- like on a grill.

 

[SuziQ]

Greg was last seen at my dads home in Holladay, Utah at about 2 or 2:30 in the afternoon (Friday). Noone had seen or heard from him. He had made arrangements prior to that friday to pick up his daughter that next day (Saturday). The propane tanks were the big ones -- like on a grill.

Well that certainly doesn't sound like someone with a suicide plan. Do you know if there is any debit card activity between 2ish till the car was found?