VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #6

[dangrsmind]

I think the reason Sid's cool and Sam isn't is because, people look at what Sid did as somewhat of an accident since he was high on heroin. We don't know of any drugs that Sam did while there yet, not that it's impossible, because he did have access to some drugs, but it was well known that Sid was usually high on heroin and so was Nancy. When you're high on a drug like that, to you nothing is reality, and things don't seem as serious. so i can def. see someone killing someone else while on Heroin and not even knowing that they are doing it.
Sam on the other hand would have had to have been high for at least 4 days straight to have just happened to be high when the preacher came over, but that's not impossible either.
Just my opinion.

So if Sam were a junkie he'd be cool like Sid? How about if he swallowed a fist full of pills before the murders?

I don't think this is the reason.

I remember quite clearly that at the time very similar complaints were made about punk as have been made here about horrorcore.

It's not musical. It condones and encourages violence. Sounds bad. The artists have no musical abilities. Events attract a bad crowd. Fans are drug users/abusers and involved in crime and petty theft.

The early punks relished the extremity of their appearance and their bad reputation and the effect it had on "normal" people around Berkeley.

 

[dangrsmind]

"rubbin' on your feet"

that's funny!

DM I kind of like those songs. . .

Careful now, next thing you know you'll be ordering an SKR charm necklace.

 

[dangrsmind]

blou,

Laugh or cry. Laugh or cry.

Peace,

D.

 

[Heroine]

So if Sam were a junkie he'd be cool like Sid? How about if he swallowed a fist full of pills before the murders?

I don't think this is the reason.

I remember quite clearly that at the time very similar complaints were made about punk as have been made here about horrorcore.

It's not musical. It condones and encourages violence. Sounds bad. The artists have no musical abilities. Events attract a bad crowd. Fans are drug users/abusers and involved in crime and petty theft.

The early punks relished the extremity of their appearance and their bad reputation and the effect it had on "normal" people around Berkeley.

BTW I didn't mean that I thought Sid was cool, and I'm just figuratively speaking. Also Sid didn't kill 4 people. It just seems different to me somehow.

 

[dangrsmind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Iq9Vc768fg

This is the track ericclimbs and I will be bumping as we pull up to ziggy's 12/12/12 b-day party.

 

[Jesikah1]

Here are some articles regarding Sid and Nancy taken from a site about Nancy Spungen.
http://nancys.110mb.com/nancy_media2.htm
If I remember correctly Sid was initially a fan of the Sex Pistols who then became a member so I guess that could parallel Sam's story a bit, but otherwise I don't see the connection.
Horrorcore on the other hand does seem to mimic the outrageous antics of the early punk scene (Nazi symbolism anyone) based on what I know of both, and like all scenes usually mimic the hierarchies and sociological aspects of the mainstream that they deplore.
The horrorcore scene with all its hypocrisy, ridiculousness and self involvement just feels familiar somehow, despite never listening to this kind of music, probably because it is essentially like most scenes that have come before. I am interested to see how much attachment players in horrorcore will give themselves once trials begin etc...

PS sorry to be so off topic and random.

 

[wadahoot]

Well....here's my Party Boy credentials

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=30886772

My, my! Not only do you have rhythm, and can do cartwheels but you even put the stool back and push it in properly! A gentleman that can boooogie down! :bananapowerslide:

 

[dangrsmind]

Here are some articles regarding Sid and Nancy taken from a site about Nancy Spungen.
http://nancys.110mb.com/nancy_media2.htm
If I remember correctly Sid was initially a fan of the Sex Pistols who then became a member so I guess that could parallel Sam's story a bit, but otherwise I don't see the connection.
Horrorcore on the other hand does seem to mimic the outrageous antics of the early punk scene (Nazi symbolism anyone) based on what I know of both, and like all scenes usually mimic the hierarchies and sociological aspects of the mainstream that they deplore.
The horrorcore scene with all its hypocrisy, ridiculousness and self involvement just feels familiar somehow, despite never listening to this kind of music, probably because it is essentially like most scenes that have come before. I am interested to see how much attachment players in horrorcore will give themselves once trials begin etc...

PS sorry to be so off topic and random.

Both men appear to have killed people and both made music that was highly offensive to the mainstream culture. I'm not saying they are similar except in this way and yet we see here that people feel that Sid Vicious was cool, "Sid is God", while Sam is rejected. I'm wondering how much this has to do with the age of the people making these statements.

Many of the same statements made here about horrorcore were made about punk rock in the early days. The lack of musicality, bad singing, the fact that the bands had no or very limited musical abilities, the shocking appearance, drug abuse, and subject matter of the songs (they even had a song about abortion, Bodies). How many different chords are there in the entire Ramones catalog? From Wikipedia: Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones was asked why he, instead of Vicious, recorded the bass parts of Never Mind the Bollocks, Jones responded, "Sid was in a hospital with hepatitis so he couldn't really play, not that he could play anyway."

In other words, maybe Sam isn't cool yet because it is too close in time to the events in question. Sid was a disgusting drug addict with no musical talent and maybe he killed his wife with a knife. And yet he is considered cool because enough time has elapsed that people who were kids then still feel nostalgic about him despite his lack of musical ability, his undesirable lifestyle and tragic death.

Also, I think the Sex Pistols had better marketing. It is worth remembering that the band was formed as a marketing concept not a political statement.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren


Sam just has our buddy Drama and Underground Nation promoting his stuff.

 

[nakedmanjoe]

My, my! Not only do you have rhythm, and can do cartwheels but you even put the stool back and push it in properly! A gentleman that can boooogie down! :bananapowerslide:

ah shucks.:blushing:

 

[claudicici]

Both men appear to have killed people and both made music that was highly offensive to the mainstream culture. I'm not saying they are similar except in this way and yet we see here that people feel that Sid Vicious was cool, "Sid is God", while Sam is rejected. I'm wondering how much this has to do with the age of the people making these statements.

Many of the same statements made here about horrorcore were made about punk rock in the early days. The lack of musicality, bad singing, the fact that the bands had no or very limited musical abilities, the shocking appearance, drug abuse, and subject matter of the songs (they even had a song about abortion, Bodies). How many different chords are there in the entire Ramones catalog? From Wikipedia: Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones was asked why he, instead of Vicious, recorded the bass parts of Never Mind the Bollocks, Jones responded, "Sid was in a hospital with hepatitis so he couldn't really play, not that he could play anyway."

In other words, maybe Sam isn't cool yet because it is too close in time to the events in question. Sid was a disgusting drug addict with no musical talent and maybe he killed his wife with a knife. And yet he is considered cool because enough time has elapsed that people who were kids then still feel nostalgic about him despite his lack of musical ability, his undesirable lifestyle and tragic death.

Also, I think the Sex Pistols had better marketing. It is worth remembering that the band was formed as a marketing concept not a political statement.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren


Sam just has our buddy Drama and Underground Nation promoting his stuff.

...the things you point out as similar between punk and horrorcore are things i appreciate about horrorcore....just don't like the beats....as far as one or the other being "cool",i don't know i never really got that word,shouldn't something "cool" be something that does not evoke strong emotions one way or the other?....as far as kids one day in the future seeing sam as an icon,i highly doubt it,he wasn't established as an "artist",you have to be already famous if you are going to be legendary for killing yourself or someone else....and again sid killed nancy....it was not selfish.....what sam did was selfish....

 

[dangrsmind]

...the things you point out as similar between punk and horrorcore are things i appreciate about horrorcore....just don't like the beats....as far as one or the other being "cool",i don't know i never really got that word,shouldn't something "cool" be something that does not evoke strong emotions one way or the other?....as far as kids one day in the future seeing sam as an icon,i highly doubt it,he wasn't established as an "artist",you have to be already famous if you are going to be legendary for killing yourself or someone else....and again sid killed nancy....it was not selfish.....what sam did was selfish....

Sid was "established as an artist"?

And yet his band mate says he was in the hospital and didn't even play on their most influential record.

Also, IMO, heroin addiction is generally pretty selfish. I also don't understand the heroism or selflessness attached to the murder of his wife. He stabbed her with a knife. Did she ask him to? I wonder.

ETA: They already make t-shirts with Sam's name on them...

 

[tapu]

Both men appear to have killed people and both made music that was highly offensive to the mainstream culture. I'm not saying they are similar except in this way and yet we see here that people feel that Sid Vicious was cool, "Sid is God", while Sam is rejected. I'm wondering how much this has to do with the age of the people making these statements.

Many of the same statements made here about horrorcore were made about punk rock in the early days. The lack of musicality, bad singing, the fact that the bands had no or very limited musical abilities, the shocking appearance, drug abuse, and subject matter of the songs (they even had a song about abortion, Bodies). How many different chords are there in the entire Ramones catalog? From Wikipedia: Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones was asked why he, instead of Vicious, recorded the bass parts of Never Mind the Bollocks, Jones responded, "Sid was in a hospital with hepatitis so he couldn't really play, not that he could play anyway."

In other words, maybe Sam isn't cool yet because it is too close in time to the events in question. Sid was a disgusting drug addict with no musical talent and maybe he killed his wife with a knife. And yet he is considered cool because enough time has elapsed that people who were kids then still feel nostalgic about him despite his lack of musical ability, his undesirable lifestyle and tragic death.

Also, I think the Sex Pistols had better marketing. It is worth remembering that the band was formed as a marketing concept not a political statement.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren


Sam just has our buddy Drama and Underground Nation promoting his stuff.

Sid was famous, and thus cool, before he killed and before he died, right? Note too that just having died is a variable here between him and Sam. Already famous, plus dead, seem like they'd get you the points in this realm. Sam's only redeeming feature is as a killer.


on edit: I see now, Claudia, that you were already arguing along these lines.

 

[claudicici]

"Sid was a disgusting drug addict "
...I lost many friends to drugs back then,a few died,a lot just weren't friends anymore because of it.
drug addicts are not disgusting.drugs are.

 

[claudicici]

Sid was "established as an artist"?

And yet his band mate says he was in the hospital and didn't even play on their most influential record.

Also, IMO, heroin addiction is generally pretty selfish. I also don't understand the heroism or selflessness attached to the murder of his wife. He stabbed her with a knife. Did she ask him to? I wonder.

....he was already famous.that's one thing he could 'nt take.
I'm very much into nancy spungen,i read everything that's written about her...and after that i came to the conclusion that yes,it was a mercy killing and yes,I'm sure nancy appreciated what he did very much and yes in the end it killed him too.

 

[dangrsmind]

Sid was famous, and thus cool, before he killed and before he died, right? Note too that just having died is a variable here between him and Sam. Already famous, plus dead, seem like they'd get you the points in this realm. Sam's only redeeming feature is as a killer.


on edit: I see now, Claudia, that you were already arguing along these lines.

So if Sam kills himself he'll become cooler and thus more marketable?

 

[tapu]

I think there are (arguable) points given for murder-suicide in Sid's case, whereas Sam just killed the pretty girls. Hey, I wonder what kind of take we'd be seeing if Sam had killed just Debra and Mark....

 

[dangrsmind]

....he was already famous.that's one thing he could 'nt take.
I'm very much into nancy spungen,i read everything that's written about her...and after that i came to the conclusion that yes,it was a mercy killing and yes,I'm sure nancy appreciated what he did very much and yes in the end it killed him too.

Do you think this argument would be convincing to people that were adults in 1979?

I don't.

 

[dangrsmind]

I think there are (arguable) points given for murder-suicide in Sid's case, whereas Sam just killed the pretty girls. Hey, I wonder what kind of take we'd be seeing if Sam had killed just Debra and Mark....

Sam killed his former girlfriend and her friend. Sid killed his wife.

Nancy Spungen was also considered attractive FWIW.

 

[claudicici]

So if Sam kills himself he'll become cooler and thus more marketable?

yes,i think so...especially if he came out with a heartwrenching statement of how he loved emma and things along those lines...again,i don't understand the world "cooler" but he'd definetely have more of a chance that people would think of him in the future...

 

[claudicici]

Sam killed his former girlfriend and her friend. Sid killed his wife.

Nancy Spungen was also considered attractive FWIW.

sid and nancy were not married.what does attractive have to do with it?
emma never wanted to die.nancy did.
nancy was in so much pain.emma was not.
sam took 4 innocent lives and kept his.
sid died.
sid may not have killed nancy.