VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[LinasK]

I agree and see examples of it all the time online. I think some are confused over what rape culture actually is - it isn't just advocating or promoting rape...it's comprised of so many different things - like the media using the word sex in rape cases as though the two words are interchangeable; catcalls and street harassment; victim blaming; shaming; putting the onus on women to prevent being raped rather than men not raping; media, TV, jokes, advertising, language, etc. that normalizes or naturalizes violence or sexism against women; or even just believing certain types of people get raped and other certain types of people aren't capable of rape. And still so much more than I've taken time to type.

False allegations of rape do indeed occur as well (for some reason that always comes up when rape culture is mentioned too) - but it's well in line with false allegations for other crimes - at about 2%. Statistically, it's the same percentage as rapes successfully prosecuted. 68% of sexual assaults went unreported over the last 5 years - in part, because of the rape culture.

JMO and FWIW

And then we have the Duggar cult, where it's always the woman's fault, even when it's not!!!:banghead:

 

[LinasK]

BBM

So a girl comes to a guys room late at night, drinks with him, fools around sexually, passionately, goes to sleep in his bed...and the onus is on the drunk 18 yr old guy not to take it further? That sounds like a dangerous way to act. And it does not sound like a very fair way for the girl to act. To get in a drunk guys bed and do passionate, sexual things and then put on the brakes. And go to sleep? Sounds kind of cruel to me. JMO

Not a wise situation for a girl, but yes, "No means NO!"

 

[LinasK]

Hey, I was hoping you'd comment! More wrt what a helicopter-type parent might do in this case. I lean more free-range and had a tough time dropping off my daughter as it was. If I'd seen these banners I might've found her a new place and spent the night.

Today was my daughter's first day of high school, so I couldn't read it and actually didn't want to yesterday. I knew I'd be upset. If I were dropping her at college and saw these banners, I would definitely have second thoughts about letting her attend that school!

 

[bluesneakers]

Today was my daughter's first day of high school, so I couldn't read it and actually didn't want to yesterday. I knew I'd be upset. If I were dropping her at college and saw these banners, I would definitely have second thoughts about letting her attend that school!

My daughter's school had a horrible reputation (it's earned it) but at least it was close.

I hope your daughter is having a great first week!

 

[BritsKate]

BBM

So a girl comes to a guys room late at night, drinks with him, fools around sexually, passionately, goes to sleep in his bed...and the onus is on the drunk 18 yr old guy not to take it further? That sounds like a dangerous way to act. And it does not sound like a very fair way for the girl to act. To get in a drunk guys bed and do passionate, sexual things and then put on the brakes. And go to sleep? Sounds kind of cruel to me. JMO

If the girl cannot or does not provide consent then yes, absolutely. Or possibly be charged with rape. No means no regardless of anything and everything else.

Statutes vary based on jurisdiction but most states have a clause in their sexual assault definitions for consent of people under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol - some also include sleep and mental disabilities under the same umbrella. If someone is so under the influence that they are unable to provide valid consent or if they are unaware of what was occurring (like 'having sex' with someone unconscious), it is considered a lack of consent, and that constitutes rape. Remember, it's these same laws that also protect victims who are incapacitated through other means, like date rape drugs.

Blaming the victim for the circumstances surrounding his/her sexual assault, regardless of what those circumstances are, usually does get brought up by defense attorneys, sometimes law enforcement or medical personnel, family and friends - it's one of many reasons sexual assault is so under-reported. In one current rape trial, the defense attorney has implied because the victim allowed the alleged perpetrator to remove her top and kiss her breasts, she obviously would have consented to sex as well. The alleged perpetrator states sex never occurred while she has testified under oath she said no shortly after the removal of her clothing, when she realized it wasn't stopping there.

JMO and FWIW

 

[Donjeta]

BBM

So a girl comes to a guys room late at night, drinks with him, fools around sexually, passionately, goes to sleep in his bed...and the onus is on the drunk 18 yr old guy not to take it further? That sounds like a dangerous way to act. And it does not sound like a very fair way for the girl to act. To get in a drunk guys bed and do passionate, sexual things and then put on the brakes. And go to sleep? Sounds kind of cruel to me. JMO

Wise? Probably not. Fair? Perhaps not. But even people who do stupid or unfair things have the right not to be raped imo. Cruel? Possibly it's cruel to deprive drunk guys of sex that they expected they'd be getting but it's not nearly as cruel as raping sleeping people. JMO.

 

[LinasK]

Wise? Probably not. Fair? Perhaps not. But even people who do stupid or unfair things have the right not to be raped imo. Cruel? Possibly it's cruel to deprive drunk guys of sex that they expected they'd be getting but it's not nearly as cruel as raping sleeping people. JMO.

Shades of Bill Cosby...:notgood:

BBM. Quoting myself in response.

 

[katydid23]

Not a wise situation for a girl, but yes, "No means NO!"

Of course NO means NO. But it is very unfair and even mean behavior on the girls part to get into bed, drunk, with a drunk teen boy, mess around sexually, get things going, then go to sleep. It is not that simple for a drunk teen boy to follow those rules. I am not saying he shouldn't, just saying it is unfair for girls to set up that type of situation.

Why is it all on the boys and no responsibility or accountability for the girls. If my daughter got drunk, and got into bed with a drunk boy, began doing sexual acts with him, and then said NO, then came home crying and saying she was raped, I would be angry at her. Maybe I am a cruel Mom, but that is how I would feel. You do not climb into a boys bed in the middle of the night, after drinking, begin making out and touching each other, and then act surprised if it went too far. I know that makes me a dinosaur and people will throw tomatoes, but it is how I feel. I would not put all of the blame on the boy but see it as shared responsibility for the outcome. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Wise? Probably not. Fair? Perhaps not. But even people who do stupid or unfair things have the right not to be raped imo. Cruel? Possibly it's cruel to deprive drunk guys of sex that they expected they'd be getting but it's not nearly as cruel as raping sleeping people. JMO.

If you go to a boys room and get drunk with him and climb into his bed and begin doing sexual acts, then I cannot call it rape. You are giving him a total green light. It is hard for me to call him a rapist in that situation. JMO

eta: I know girls can change their minds. But how do males protect themselves from false accusations if a girl willingly climbs into bed with them and does sexual acts and then later claims rape?

 

[katydid23]

I just feel like the pendulum has swung too far in one direction. Do girls have any accountability at all ? It does not seem so anymore. If they can get drunk and climb into a guys bed and begin sexual actions and then say no, and it his his word against hers if she decides it was rape. That is what bothers me.

 

[BritsKate]

When we place the onus of responsibility on girls not to be raped, we bolster a social and legal system in which rape victims’ actions are wrongfully scrutinized to determine whether the rapist is truly guilty—something that rarely happens with other crimes. Think of the usual questions: Was the girl wearing something provocative? Did she dance provocatively? Did she drink alcohol? Has she (gasp) slept with other boys before? These inquisitions into a victim’s background and actions imply that it’s sometimes understandable that a man would rape. They suggest if a girl is deemed to have been “asking for it,” the man was utterly helpless. It’s as though no red-blooded American man has the wherewithal to tell himself, “Hm, I think she’s asking for it, but as she hasn’t consented to sex, I guess I’m going to have to tell myself ‘No.'” The fact that rape can be seen as a reasonable consequence for a woman’s choices is, in fact, the foundation of rape culture.

The College Rape Crisis: Four Ways To End Rape Culture

 

[katydid23]

The College Rape Crisis: Four Ways To End Rape Culture

Well, I guess I am not willing to call it rape if a girl climbs into a boys bed and begins sexual foreplay, with both of them being drunk. I know it is technically called rape but I think that is unfair. I do not think a girl should willingly get into a boys bed and begin mutual sexual acts with him if she is not prepared for it to continue. What is her motive for getting into bed and beginning that process? It seems wrong on many levels to do so. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Well, I guess I am not willing to call it rape if a girl climbs into a boys bed and begins sexual foreplay, with both of them being drunk. I know it is technically called rape but I think that is unfair. I do not think a girl should willingly get into a boys bed and begin mutual sexual acts with him if she is not prepared for it to continue. What is her motive for getting into bed and beginning that process? It seems wrong on many levels to do so. JMO

IMO it reads like you're trying really hard to come up with a scenario that somehow illustrates a rape that would be justified, but what you're describing 1) is a thought process of rape culture, and 2) has very little to do with addressing the real problem of women being raped, assaulted, and harassed on college campuses.

JMO.

 

[katydid23]

Here is what I mean by the pendulum swinging too far the other way:


A student found guilty of sexual misconduct by the University of Tennessee because he couldn’t prove he obtained verbal consent had his verdict overturned by a Chancery Court judge on Aug. 4.

A student expelled from Washington and Lee University for alleged sexual misconduct will be allowed to continue with his gender bias lawsuit against the school, U.S. District Court Judge Norman Moon ruled on Aug. 8. In the lawsuit, a Title IX officer at the school is quoted during a presentation she gave to the woman who later accused John Doe. The Title IX officer is alleged to have said “regret equals rape” and “went on to state her belief that this point was a new idea everyone, herself included, is starting to agree with.” Shortly thereafter, an allegation of misconduct was launched against John Doe. The Title IX officer played a significant role in the investigatory process.

A right to due process at state universities may seem like a novel concept, but Banzhaf said the fourth amendment protection was never intended to apply solely to the court system.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/16/yes-means-yes-policy-coming-under-fire-from-judges/


"The Title IX officer is alleged to have said “regret equals rape” and “went on to state her belief that this point was a new idea everyone, herself included, is starting to agree with."


That^^^ is very frightening to me. Regret= Rape???? How is that fair ?

 

[katydid23]

IMO it reads like you're trying really hard to come up with a scenario that somehow illustrates a rape that would be justified, but what you're describing 1) is a thought process of rape culture, and 2) has very little to do with addressing the real problem of women being raped, assaulted, and harassed on college campuses.

JMO.

NO, I was quoting someone post. I did not make up that scenario. Someone else did and said it was not rape even if a girl climbed into a drunk boys bed, began sexual foreplay and spent the night there.

I agree that there is a big problem with women being assaulted and raped. And many women are harassed. But I am saying that we should focus on solving those real problems. But we should not take away accountability for women's actions in doing so. And IMO, a girl should not go to a boys room and get drunk and climb into his bed if she does not want to have sex.
JMO


ETA:

here is the portion of the post I was replying to:


You do say one thing, BBM, that I'd like to directly address...Why should anyone have to NOT drink just to protect themselves from being taken advantage of or raped? Isn't the onus on the person doing the advantage taking or raping? Why can't a girl have some drinks, get frisky with a guy (maybe even real frisky), say no to intercourse, pass out (or not) and go home in the morning WITHOUT having sex? Saying no IS perfectly fine and while women say it sometimes between passionate kisses and touching, it still means "no". It's important for guys to hear it and act accordingly.

 

[Donjeta]

If you go to a boys room and get drunk with him and climb into his bed and begin doing sexual acts, then I cannot call it rape. You are giving him a total green light. It is hard for me to call him a rapist in that situation. JMO

eta: I know girls can change their minds. But how do males protect themselves from false accusations if a girl willingly climbs into bed with them and does sexual acts and then later claims rape?

Well I cannot agree, I think it's perfectly possible and allowed to consent to, say, kissing and heavy petting, and refuse to have intercourse. I have done so and never got raped for that.

Me giving someone a total green light involves me saying yes, and consenting to sex, instead of me saying no, I want to sleep instead. In any case, I wouldn't think someone who does the latter is giving me a total green light.

False accusations have nothing to do with whether a girl, or a boy, for that matter, has the right to refuse certain sexual acts if s/he consented to doing something else. Of course they do.

It's rape, if it's non-consensual.

ETA: and where would you draw the line? After what kind and how much foreplay would you lose your right to refuse intercourse in a fair way? A few kisses? Undressing? Touching him there? Letting him touch you there? Then by the same token, if you've agreed to vaginal intercourse or a , have you also totally given him the green light to do anal that you don't want?

 

[katydid23]

Well I cannot agree, I think it's perfectly possible and allowed to consent to, say, kissing and heavy petting, and refuse to have intercourse. I have done so and never got raped for that.

Me giving someone a total green light involves me saying yes, and consenting to sex, instead of me saying no, I want to sleep instead. In any case, I wouldn't think someone who does the latter is giving me a total green light.

False accusations have nothing to do with whether a girl, or a boy, for that matter, has the right to refuse certain sexual acts if s/he consented to doing something else. Of course they do.

It's rape, if it's non-consensual.

I understand that. But I am saying that if a girl climbs into bed with a boy, takes part in some heavy petting, and then agrees to have sex, then regrets it, she can claim rape and there is nothing the boy can do to prove otherwise. And I think that is unfair.

And if she says no, and he proceeds, then she has put herself in a bad position as well. Because many will have a hard time believing her if she willingly climbed into bed with him and began the process. How do we know she said no?

I just think it is wrong to put yourself in that position unless it is a close relationship that has trust.

Also, it is not that cut and dry, black and white, when people are in bed in the middle of the night doing heavy petting. There is often 'NO?YES?MAYBE' signals going on. JMO

 

[Donjeta]

So you're saying that if the girl is not prepared to go all out and have sex, she should consent to no sexual activity whatsoever that could be construed as foreplay?

If someone is asleep, it's cut and dry to me. You just don't have sex with someone who is sleeping. Sleeping is not a mixed signal, it's a NO. JMO.

 

[katydid23]

So you're saying that if the girl is not prepared to go all out and have sex, she should consent to no sexual activity whatsoever that could be construed as foreplay?

She should make that clear up front. But if one is not prepared to have sex, do they need to climb into a drunk teen's bed and spend the night, and have foreplay? That seems like a recipe for disaster, imo.

I always told my daughter just that exactly. Don't climb into a boys bed and begin making out with him because it is playing with fire. Stay down stairs on the couch, make out and then LEAVE when you want to go. JMO

 

[katydid23]

So you're saying that if the girl is not prepared to go all out and have sex, she should consent to no sexual activity whatsoever that could be construed as foreplay?

If someone is asleep, it's cut and dry to me. You just don't have sex with someone who is sleeping. Sleeping is not a mixed signal, it's a NO. JMO.

I never said anyone should have sex with someone who is sleeping. But I don't think a girl should sleep over in a guys bed if she is not in a really close and trusting relationship. JMO