VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[katydid23]

I totally disagree. No matter what, a rape victim is NEVER to blame.


ETA I am responding to katydid' s post above mine.

I disagree. I think there are times when the situation is muddled and the woman or man is sending lots of mixed signals.And the next day the victim remembers it as them saying NO ---but it might not have been as cut and dry as that.

 

[katydid23]

I find that the male bears 100% responsibility in both of those scenarios. Fondling or any other form of arousal, drunk or not, does not mean that intercourse is necessarily to follow. As a man, I find it highly insulting to suggest that we are either too hormone-driven or incapable of understanding boundaries or refusal to be fully responsible for our actions.

Some young men in college are not fully capable of understanding those boundaries when a girl is sending opposing messages much of the night. Don't we always say that teens do not have fully developed brains yet? If a drunk girl is too impaired to say yes then why is a drunk boy, who is also impaired, held responsible for his decisions? It does not seem very equitable, imo.

I am not speaking about cases where the girl clearly says NO. I am speaking about the cases where the boy thought she was saying yes, partially because she was in his bed and engaging in heavy petting, and because he did not hear the word no. And later she says, 'well I didnt really want to' ---and that is now considered rape.

 

[flourish]

sounds like you wouldnt automatically believe the rape victim either. she could be a total liar huh?

Trip trap

I've already said I am comfortable erring on the side of an alleged victim during the initial investigation.


Perhaps if posts were read with a goal of comprehension vs fodder for arguments...

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[flourish]

There is a big difference between some rapes and other rapes, IMO. I do not blame rape victims in 98% of the cases. If you meet a guy at a party and you are just kissing him on the couch in the living room, and he rapes you, then it is 100% on him, not you. But IMO, if a girl meets a guy at a party, drinks with him, agrees to go up to his room, gets in his bed, has heavy petting and foreplay, for example, plays with his genitals, lets him fondle her---then I do believe that she shares some responsibility for the rape situation. She should be accountable for her very poor choices. Do not climb in a drunk guys bed and play with him sexually and then act shocked that he continued down that road that you were taking him down.

"I do not blame RAPE VICTIMS in 98% of the cases." My emphasis added. You labeled them as victims. But even saying that you would admittedly blame 2% of them. Although you yourself referred to them as victims. K

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[flourish]

Some young men in college are not fully capable of understanding those boundaries when a girl is sending opposing messages much of the night. Don't we always say that teens do not have fully developed brains yet? If a drunk girl is too impaired to say yes then why is a drunk boy, who is also impaired, held responsible for his decisions? It does not seem very equitable, imo.

I am not speaking about cases where the girl clearly says NO. I am speaking about the cases where the boy thought she was saying yes, partially because she was in his bed and engaging in heavy petting, and because he did not hear the word no. And later she says, 'well I didnt really want to' ---and that is now considered rape.

because being asleep and getting raped is not the same as being drunk and raping someone!! One is passive one is an action!!

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[bluesneakers]

because being asleep and getting raped is not the same as being drunk and raping someone!! One is passive one is an action!!

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How can you give consent when you're asleep?

 

[cuffem]

I wanted to jump in and help Katy out,I understand what she is saying.We should be able to live in a world were a woman can wear what she wants when she wants and where she wants but that is not the case.A woman can not walk naked at 3am down a dark alley as example.We as women know this so we try and make decisions to protect ourselves and not put ourselves in danger,but some young women make poor decisions and put themselves in harms way.I am not saying they are at fault but we make the decision to be there.I hope what I say makes sense because I do not wish to get into a big thing on here,I'm not as good at making my point as Katy is.

 

[bluesneakers]

I wanted to jump in and help Katy out,I understand what she is saying.We should be able to live in a world were a woman can wear what she wants when she wants and where she wants but that is not the case.A woman can not walk naked at 3am down a dark alley as example.We as women know this so we try and make decisions to protect ourselves and not put ourselves in danger,but some young women make poor decisions and put themselves in harms way.I am not saying they are at fault but we make the decision to be there.I hope what I say makes sense because I do not wish to get into a big thing on here,I'm not as good at making my point as Katy is.

Or if men would just stop raping women maybe we wouldn't have to keep blaming women for getting themselves raped.

 

[flourish]

I understand the point which is being made. I just disagree with much, if not all, of the reasonings being provided. And possibly the point itself.

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[tangelo]

Trip trap

I've already said I am comfortable erring on the side of an alleged victim during the initial investigation.


Perhaps if posts were read with a goal of comprehension vs fodder for arguments...

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and you would support the rapist if he were a relative, while still 'erring on the side of the victim' somehow.

 

[ninij9]

What a truly great thread about a hugely important issue. This issue is as old as alcohol. Of course rape is wrong. Instead of getting into all of the moral issues with my daughter when she turned 18, I warned her about what could happen if she drank herself into oblivion. How her safety could be at risk. How she she always be with female friends she trusted with her life, and to always behave as a young lady should. I dont agree, and would NEVER TELL HER that if she felt like getting naked and engaged in heavy petting with a casual acquaintance while consuming HUGE amounts of alcohol, that she should have a reasonable expectation to NOT get raped. I actually told her that those actions would likely LEAD to her getting hurt and/or raped. I would be remiss if I led her to believe otherwise regardless of her "rights" So many of these college kids think that nothing bad can happen to them, it amazes me. And it all begins and ends with alcohol.

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[cuffem]

Or if men would just stop raping women maybe we wouldn't have to keep blaming women for getting themselves raped.

Nobody is blaming women for getting raped and it is not so cut and dry as you would like it to be.I think this thread is getting carried away by strong emotions and there should be some respect for others opinions.

 

[ninij9]

I also wanted to say that maybe they should have these banner boys host a meet and greet with all of the dads of the incoming freshman girls. A question and answer session. Let the dads ask these "funny" boys a few questions. Might put a damper on their enthusiasm for "fresh meat"

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[bluesneakers]

Nobody is blaming women for getting raped and it is not so cut and dry as you would like it to be.I think this thread is getting carried away by strong emotions and there should be some respect for others opinions.

I've read several comments blaming victims for being raped, or questioning what counts as rape and what doesn't count as rape. Or talking about how many girls falsely accuse boys of rape, or turn 'regret sex' into rape. IMO rape is rape, period, and it bothers me when a discussion about rape and rape culture gets derailed by comments placing responsibility on women. Those signs the frat hung should be giant "DO NOT ENTER" warning signs, but the sad truth is young women will go to frat parties and some of them will be raped. Why do we put so much focus on how girls should react or what they should and shouldn't do (which I'm fine with, but it's not the ONLY aspect), instead of talking about what exactly rape culture is and how we allow it to continue? Instead of talking about the entitlement these young men have and how they acquire and supply alcohol, how they have access to date rape drugs, how they have friends and frat brothers and law enforcement and school officials who will help them and cover for them, we talk about how girls shouldn't have too much to drink and fondle boys' penises.

 

[katydid23]

"I do not blame RAPE VICTIMS in 98% of the cases." My emphasis added. You labeled them as victims. But even saying that you would admittedly blame 2% of them. Although you yourself referred to them as victims. K

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I used the word victims because that is what they are if they are raped. But I am saying that in 2% of the cases I believe the 'victim' has some accountability for the outcome. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I've read several comments blaming victims for being raped, or questioning what counts as rape and what doesn't count as rape. Or talking about how many girls falsely accuse boys of rape, or turn 'regret sex' into rape. IMO rape is rape, period, and it bothers me when a discussion about rape and rape culture gets derailed by comments placing responsibility on women. Those signs the frat hung should be giant "DO NOT ENTER" warning signs, but the sad truth is young women will go to frat parties and some of them will be raped. Why do we put so much focus on how girls should react or what they should and shouldn't do (which I'm fine with, but it's not the ONLY aspect), instead of talking about what exactly rape culture is and how we allow it to continue? Instead of talking about the entitlement these young men have and how they acquire and supply alcohol, how they have access to date rape drugs, how they have friends and frat brothers and law enforcement and school officials who will help them and cover for them, we talk about how girls shouldn't have too much to drink and fondle boys' penises.

In my opinion there are two sides to every situation. What you are describing is the 'rape culture' as defined in a way that puts it all 100% on the men. It is all frat boys and the evil school officials and the crooked cops that conspire to rape all of these innocent young girls.

But I worked in a high school for many years. Girls can be just as predatory, just as sexually aggressive. You cannot believe some of the intense and lewd comments, messages, texts and pictures that girls send to boys.

I think this thread needs a little balance. WHY are all these girls going to frat parties if it is just about rapists up in there? They go because they want to meet boyfriends, lovers, new guys to date. So there is a lot of sexual flirtation, promises, perhaps even some teasing going on. These things do not happen in a vacuum.

So I think we SHOULD talk about girls drinking too much and fondling boy's penises. Because that is all a part of this big mess. And girls need to understand their part in the equation too, imo.

 

[katydid23]

I've read several comments blaming victims for being raped, or questioning what counts as rape and what doesn't count as rape. Or talking about how many girls falsely accuse boys of rape, or turn 'regret sex' into rape. IMO rape is rape, period, and it bothers me when a discussion about rape and rape culture gets derailed by comments placing responsibility on women. Those signs the frat hung should be giant "DO NOT ENTER" warning signs, but the sad truth is young women will go to frat parties and some of them will be raped. Why do we put so much focus on how girls should react or what they should and shouldn't do (which I'm fine with, but it's not the ONLY aspect), instead of talking about what exactly rape culture is and how we allow it to continue? Instead of talking about the entitlement these young men have and how they acquire and supply alcohol, how they have access to date rape drugs, how they have friends and frat brothers and law enforcement and school officials who will help them and cover for them, we talk about how girls shouldn't have too much to drink and fondle boys' penises.

And why shouldn't we talk about what is rape and what isn't? I think that is very important. And why shouldn't we talk about false accusations and regret sex? Because for BOYS, this is a big issue and a big fear. I know that here it is dismissed as not that much of an issue. But I disagree.

Why shouldn't some of the responsibility be placed on women? If the rape numbers are going to drop then women need to do their part as well, imo. JMO

 

[tangelo]

I've read several comments blaming victims for being raped, or questioning what counts as rape and what doesn't count as rape. Or talking about how many girls falsely accuse boys of rape, or turn 'regret sex' into rape. IMO rape is rape, period, and it bothers me when a discussion about rape and rape culture gets derailed by comments placing responsibility on women. Those signs the frat hung should be giant "DO NOT ENTER" warning signs, but the sad truth is young women will go to frat parties and some of them will be raped. Why do we put so much focus on how girls should react or what they should and shouldn't do (which I'm fine with, but it's not the ONLY aspect), instead of talking about what exactly rape culture is and how we allow it to continue? Instead of talking about the entitlement these young men have and how they acquire and supply alcohol, how they have access to date rape drugs, how they have friends and frat brothers and law enforcement and school officials who will help them and cover for them, we talk about how girls shouldn't have too much to drink and fondle boys' penises.

the term rape culture is <modnsip>, it's used to promote a political agenda, nothing less, nothing more. there is no culture of rape in the US. <modsnip>

 

[flourish]

and you would support the rapist if he were a relative, while still 'erring on the side of the victim' somehow.

I'm sorry if you don't have the capacity to separate supporting another person's health while also recognizing that person is imperfect and may have committed a crime. I have the ability to recognize the difference and the capacity to understand and practice accordingly.
If my male relative is convicted of rape, they need to serve the sentence handed. That doesn't mean I don't love them. It doesn't mean I don't support them.

 

[bessie]

As parents, educators, or other individuals with the power to influence young men and young women, we should send a strong message that personal responsibility is empowering. Young adults who understand that actions equal consequences are far less likely to place themselves in the precarious situations addressed in many of these comments.

And college students should not be regarded as "boys and girls", though the time to begin teaching personal responsibility is when they are "boys and girls".

My personal opinion.