VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[katydid23]

Let's put it this way- if a female starts to arouse a sleeping male in that manner and he says, "Leave me alone, I'm tired/I'm sleeping" and she continues, then yes she is a predator. FWIW, I don't ever believe Travis did this to Jodi, I think it's her fiction.

Does anyone know of any college girls that have been charged with rape for arousing a sleeping male, and continuing the process to penetration, without his consent?

 

[TorisMom003]

Doubtful that there would be any since arousing someone is not the same thing as raping someone. Men are even more less likely to report a rape than women are. Same goes with domestic violence.

MOO

 

[bluesneakers]

1 in 10 rape cases on University of Minnesota campus lead to arrest

MINNEAPOLIS (KMSP) -
When students return to the University of Minnesota campus in a few weeks, the ground rules in the bedroom will be a little different. President of the University, Eric Kaler is going forward with what's being called an Affirmative Consent Policy even before the Board of Regents approves it. That policy requires students to "unambiguously consent" to sex in words or actions. That consent must be "continuous and on-going.” Anything short of that could be considered sexual assault.

But the FOX 9 Investigators discovered few rapes on campus are ever reported to police, and only one in ten lead to an arrest or criminal charges.

The Fox 9 Investigators asked for all reported rapes and sexual assaults on the University of Minnesota campus for the last 10 years.

Out of 62 rapes and sex assaults reported to University police in the last decade (from 2005-2015 at U of M campus):

*23 cases are still open, some in limbo for years, waiting for new evidence.
*10 cases the victim refused to cooperate.
*1 case unfounded.
*6 cases, less than 10 percent, led to an actual arrest or criminal charges.
*Prosecution declined in 21 cases, a third of the time

According to Katie Eichele, from the University's Aurora Center which counsels sexual assault victims, prosecutors pursue cases they know they are going to win. "So when prosecution is looking at a case they're saying what is it going to take to convince a jury. And what we know about juries is that there is victim blaming. That they carry biases; ‘what was person drinking’, ‘what were they wearing’, Eichele explained.

More:

http://www.fox9.com/news/12385885-story

 

[katydid23]

Doubtful that there would be any since arousing someone is not the same thing as raping someone. Men are even more less likely to report a rape than women are. Same goes with domestic violence.

MOO

Right, but I was using 'arousing ' as short hand for getting things started in his sleep. I meant to compare the actions in both situations with the different sexes. If a girl woke up in a boys bed after they had been heavy petting the previous night, and she began to arouse him, did so, and continued the process to penetration, as he was just waking up, should the girl be arrested for rape?

 

[Montjoy]

No idea why people should be compelled to respond to rather bizarre hypothetical situations as if they might support the untenable position of someone else.

 

[katydid23]

Let's put it this way- if a female starts to arouse a sleeping male in that manner and he says, "Leave me alone, I'm tired/I'm sleeping" and she continues, then yes she is a predator. FWIW, I don't ever believe Travis did this to Jodi, I think it's her fiction.

Then I know a lot of wives that have raped their husbands.

So to clarify, if a woman starts arousing a man's genitals when he is asleep, and he wakes up and says " I am tired/sleeping' ---and she continues anyway, then she is a sexual predator and she should be arrested for rape? Correct?

 

[katydid23]

No idea why people should be compelled to respond to rather bizarre hypothetical situations as if they might support the untenable position of someone else.

How is it bizarre to replace females with males in the EXACT same situation, and see how the results differ.

Because I have to say there seems to be a real double standard, imo.

 

[bluesneakers]

Then I know a lot of wives that have raped their husbands.

So to clarify, if a woman starts arousing a man's genitals when he is asleep, and he wakes up and says " I am tired/sleeping' ---and she continues anyway, then she is a sexual predator and she should be arrested for rape? Correct?

I don't see rape mentioned once in LinasK's comment. Interesting you would jump to that conclusion.

 

[bluesneakers]

No idea why people should be compelled to respond to rather bizarre hypothetical situations as if they might support the untenable position of someone else.

I agree, and at this point the genital arousing comments are bordering on obsessive. I don't see why someone fondling his or her sleeping partner is such a vital part in a discussion about rape. A spouse arousing a sleeping partner (who is okay with the practice) has zilch to do with someone being raped while asleep, passed out, drunk, forcibly held, threatened, etc.

Should we also talk about if a wife wears sexy underwear because she wants to have sex and her husband knows the meaning, and how that might relate to a young woman wearing sexy underwear for any reason, but if she makes out with a guy he might see it and get the same message hypothetical wife's hypothetical husband might get, that it means green light time to go for sex? Seems about right.

 

[katydid23]

I agree, and at this point the genital arousing comments are bordering on obsessive. I don't see why someone fondling his or her sleeping partner is such a vital part in a discussion about rape. A spouse arousing a sleeping partner (who is okay with the practice) has zilch to do with someone being raped while asleep, passed out, drunk, forcibly held, threatened, etc.

Should we also talk about if a wife wears sexy underwear because she wants to have sex and her husband knows the meaning, and how that might relate to a young woman wearing sexy underwear for any reason, but if she makes out with a guy he might see it and get the same message hypothetical wife's hypothetical husband might get, that it means green light time to go for sex? Seems about right.

Here is why I am 'obsessing' on that subject. I wanted to know if it was 'equal' for both sexes. Does what happen for women also happen for men?
But it looks like the answer is NO.

Megyn Kelly loses cool over Amherst student who expelled for alleged rape

[video=youtube;8B_ogecYm0I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B_ogecYm0I[/video]

Published on Aug 9, 2015
Expelled under new policy, ex-Amherst College student files suit Amherst accused of ignoring evidence in alleged sexual assault.


watch this video about a female student at Amhurst, who committed a sex act on a sleeping male student, and tell me if it seems EQUITABLE.

 

[katydid23]

Here is a written version of a shocking and outrageous case:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/29/amherst/4t6JtKmaz7vlYSrQk5NDyJ/story.html

Expelled under new policy, ex-Amherst College student files suit

Amherst accused of ignoring evidence in alleged sexual assault

In December 2013, Amherst College imposed its first major sanction under a new get-tough sexual misconduct policy, expelling a 21-year-old senior after a disciplinary board concluded that he had forced a female classmate to perform oral sex during an alcohol-infused encounter nearly two years earlier.

In April 2014, however, the expelled student presented the college with new evidence — a series of text messages the woman sent to two other male students immediately after the alleged rape, according to a lawsuit. To one, a dorm counselor, she described the sexual encounter in language that suggested it was consensual and she wrote, “It’s pretty obvi [obvious] I wasn’t an innocent bystander.’’

The lawsuit is also likely to further fuel an ongoing debate about the tough new standards on sexual assault adopted by colleges and universities under federal government pressure, standards that many legal scholars believe violate the rights of those accused of sexual misconduct.

Under the standard ordered by the US Department of Education, Doe was judged guilty under a “preponderance of the evidence,’’ meaning the three-member disciplinary board — made up of officials from neighboring colleges — found it more likely than not that the allegation was true, said the letter to Doe expelling him. In the past, Amherst and other colleges had used a tougher standard of proof — clear and convincing evidence of guilt.

Meanwhile, the expelled student is in academic and professional limbo. His transcript, which he would need to finish his degree or get a higher position, says he was expelled for disciplinary reasons, according to the lawsuit.

Now 22, he was looking forward to a career that probably would have been enhanced by a degree from one of the country’s most prestigious liberal arts colleges...
==========================================================================

Another example of a very high profile rape accusation that turned out to be FALSE accusation. And the true victim was this male student whose life has been ruined.

 

[bluesneakers]

Of course it's not equal for sexes because women are more often victims and often don't get any justice.

The same way you're suggesting this woman got away with it is what many of us have been commenting here - young men get away with this ALL THE TIME. It's not just one case that blows up and makes it on FOX. It's cases everywhere, even cases that include video evidence! And the young women are blamed and often don't get any justice, which is why so many stay silent.

It sounds to me like the case you're talking about was a terrible miscarriage of justice thanks to some serious mistakes made by a college that was in the middle of a campus sexual assault crisis, probably do to their own mishandling of rape charges. This is why sexual assault and rape cases (IMO) on campus should be handled by local law enforcement rather than the university who has far too much invested in the outcome of such cases.

Under the standard ordered by the US Department of Education, Doe was judged guilty under a “preponderance of the evidence,’’ meaning the three-member disciplinary board — made up of officials from neighboring colleges — found it more likely than not that the allegation was true, said the letter to Doe expelling him. In the past, Amherst and other colleges had used a tougher standard of proof — clear and convincing evidence of guilt.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/29/amherst/4t6JtKmaz7vlYSrQk5NDyJ/story.html


eta: Did he face criminal charges? Was he found guilty? If so, what was his punishment?

 

[katydid23]

Of course it's not equal for sexes because women are more often victims and often don't get any justice.

The same way you're suggesting this woman got away with it is what many of have been commenting here young men get away with this ALL THE TIME. It's not just one case that blows up and makes it on FOX. It's cases everywhere, even cases that include video evidence! And the young women are blamed and often don't get any justice, which is why so many stay silent.

It sounds to me like the case you're talking about was a terrible miscarriage of justice thanks to some serious mistakes made by a college that was in the middle of a campus sexual assault crisis, probably do to their own mishandling of rape charges. This is why sexual assault and rape cases (IMO) on campus should be handled by local law enforcement rather than the university who has far too much invested in the outcome of such cases.



https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/29/amherst/4t6JtKmaz7vlYSrQk5NDyJ/story.html

I am not convinced there are as many cut and dried rape cases as many people say there are. I think the FALSE accusations are much higher than the bogus 2-8% stat, which is touted.

I lived firsthand through our friends false accusation. The University had ZERO evidence. And he was expelled and arrested.

I see these cases that I found online, and once again, the colleges had ZERO corroborating evidence, and very compelling mitigating evidence, and still the males were expelled, their lives ruined.

So it is hard for me to believe that endless numbers of females are being raped and no one believes them. I think there is a reason that many of the cases are not considered credible. I think that many of the rape victims have muddled versions of the events which make it hard to pin everything down. And I think that many of the girls were consenting with much of the sexual contact, which then makes it very hard to know when exactly consent was denied, if ever.

Which takes me back to my original point here. We should not be telling girls that 'rape' is all on the boys shoulders and the girls can do or say whatever they want, be as sexually interactive as they desire, climb in bed with the boy,and then they can just say RED LIGHT and everything will STOP. Because in reality, if they have been drinking, it will not be that simple. Things will be unclear and a bit messy. JMO

 

[al66pine]

... some serious mistakes made by a college that was in the middle of a campus sexual assault crisis, probably do to their own mishandling of rape charges. This is why sexual assault and rape cases (IMO) on campus should be handled by local law enforcement rather than the university who has far too much invested in the outcome of such cases.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/29/amherst/4t6JtKmaz7vlYSrQk5NDyJ/story.html....

bbm Any reason a person reporting a sexual assault on campus could/would not report to local LE, rather than campus LE?
ETA: In US, would local LE be prevented from responding to 911 call when event had just occurred?
What about days or weeks later, would jurisdiction issues prohibit local LE from taking report & investigating?

 

[bluesneakers]

bbm Any reason a person reporting a sexual assault on campus could/would not report to local LE, rather than campus LE?
ETA: In US, would local LE be prevented from responding to 911 call when event had just occurred?
What about days or weeks later, would jurisdiction issues prohibit local LE from taking report & investigating?

Why schools handle sexual violence reports

In response to coverage of university mistreatment of sexual assault survivors, many observers have wondered why schools handle these crimes at all: why not just leave it to the police? Here’s the answer in a couple easy bullet points.

Why do schools handle sexual violence reports?

Title IX requires schools to combat sex discrimination in education. One of the most common objections we hear to campus adjudication is “but isn’t rape a crime?” It absolutely is, and students who report to their schools can also report to the police. However, rape and other forms of gender-based violence manifest and perpetuate inequality, and federal antidiscrimination law recognizes that. To make sure that all students, regardless of their gender identity and expression, have equal access to education, schools are required to prevent and respond to reports of sexual violence. This isn’t a replacement for reporting to the police; it’s a parallel option for survivors based in civil rights – rather than criminal – law.

Q: How does it work when a survivor reports to both the police and to his or her school?

A: Colleges and universities are required to investigate a report regardless of whether a police investigation is underway, so concurrent investigations may occur. Sometimes the police may ask schools to very briefly delay for evidence collection, but one process will never be put on hold for the sake of the other.

Much more at the link, including links to further reading:

http://knowyourix.org/why-schools-handle-sexual-violence-reports/

 

[BritsKate]

bbm Any reason a person reporting a sexual assault on campus could/would not report to local LE, rather than campus LE?
ETA: In US, would local LE be prevented from responding to 911 call when event had just occurred?
What about days or weeks later, would jurisdiction issues prohibit local LE from taking report & investigating?

Colleges respond to campus rape because they are required under Title IX to protect students' civil right to education, a right threatened when a student suffers violence. As survivors can attest, it's often impossible to stay in school after sexual assault: Victims suffer depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety and eating disorders - all while trying to avoid their rapist, get to class, eat dinner and write papers.

Survivors turn to their colleges for any number of protections and accommodations: for help moving out of the dormitories their rapists live in, for changes to their schedule so they don't have to see their abusers at their campus jobs, for extensions on papers and exams in the days following an assault. Schools, however much they are failing currently, have an obligation to ensure that all students, including victims, have equal access to educational opportunities. That's a civil right no police force can guarantee.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/rape-pass-article-1.1854420

For many survivors, campus reporting is their only option. Many victims of sexual violence don’t want to turn to the criminal justice system: they may fear skepticism and abuse from police, prosecutors, or juries; they may not want to go through the ordeal of a long trial; they may fear retaliation from their assailant, who will most likely not end up prosecuted, let alone convicted; and they may be hesitant to send their assailants to prison. But even survivors who do report to the police are often abandoned by the system. Only a quarter of all reported rapes lead to an arrest, only a fifth lead to prosecution, and only half of those prosecutions result in felony convictions. Additionally, not all state laws cover sexual violence perpetrated by women or a person the same sex as the victim; some don’t recognize men as victims at all. Schools, unlike the state, must take up every report for adjudication and response according to the victim’s wishes. For most campus survivors, then, their school may be their only resource for justice and safety.

http://knowyourix.org/why-schools-handle-sexual-violence-reports/

 

[bluesneakers]

I am not convinced there are as many cut and dried rape cases as many people say there are. I think the FALSE accusations are much higher than the bogus 2-8% stat, which is touted.

I lived firsthand through our friends false accusation. The University had ZERO evidence. And he was expelled and arrested.

I see these cases that I found online, and once again, the colleges had ZERO corroborating evidence, and very compelling mitigating evidence, and still the males were expelled, their lives ruined.

So it is hard for me to believe that endless numbers of females are being raped and no one believes them. I think there is a reason that many of the cases are not considered credible. I think that many of the rape victims have muddled versions of the events which make it hard to pin everything down. And I think that many of the girls were consenting with much of the sexual contact, which then makes it very hard to know when exactly consent was denied, if ever.

Which takes me back to my original point here. We should not be telling girls that 'rape' is all on the boys shoulders and the girls can do or say whatever they want, be as sexually interactive as they desire, climb in bed with the boy,and then they can just say RED LIGHT and everything will STOP. Because in reality, if they have been drinking, it will not be that simple. Things will be unclear and a bit messy. JMO

Meh... you can believe what you want based on your one experience and what you search for online and I'll believe what I want based on watching case after case and researching online, and what I went through while my daughter was a university student. Maybe if your experience had been with a daughter who was a victim of date rape your opinion would be different. I'm seeing a lot of "I think" comments in what you've said which to me suggests you're not certain and that possibly leaves you vulnerable (based on your personal experience with your son's friend) to the messages rape culture broadcasts to our society.

I don't know anyone who is going around telling young women "Do whatever you want and climb in bed and hey, it's all on him to behave!" Most of the comments I've seen here advocate responsibility on both parties and everyone knows alcohol (though I maintain it's often procured by the young men with the very intent of getting young women drunk or give them date rape drugs so they can have sex with them) plays a major role in sexual assault and rape.

But a video of a passed out drunk girl being passed around like a bag of laundry, and being assaulted... to me there's no question. She was raped. She was abused and assaulted. Yet many, many people blamed her, said it was her fault, said the boys (they were in high school) did nothing wrong and it was tragic to see their lives ruined for what they did. Their coaches and parents tried to cover for them. One of those boys, when he apologized after the trial, did not even mention the victim or her family. So much for contrition and learning from his mistakes.

 

[bluesneakers]

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/rape-pass-article-1.1854420


http://knowyourix.org/why-schools-handle-sexual-violence-reports/

Thank you.

This is where I go back and forth... if there's any chance of a conviction I would like to see the rapist pay for his crime. Is it enough to get kicked out of school or put on academic probation? Is avoiding trial worth having to see your rapist on campus a year later? Maybe it's as simple as I just don't trust the schools that foster this environment in the first place.

But all of this is good, and it would be sad to see someone have to leave school and be victimized twice:

Colleges respond to campus rape because they are required under Title IX to protect students' civil right to education, a right threatened when a student suffers violence. As survivors can attest, it's often impossible to stay in school after sexual assault: Victims suffer depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety and eating disorders - all while trying to avoid their rapist, get to class, eat dinner and write papers.

Survivors turn to their colleges for any number of protections and accommodations: for help moving out of the dormitories their rapists live in, for changes to their schedule so they don't have to see their abusers at their campus jobs, for extensions on papers and exams in the days following an assault. Schools, however much they are failing currently, have an obligation to ensure that all students, including victims, have equal access to educational opportunities. That's a civil right no police force can guarantee.

 

[Elley Mae]

Can a thread on Rape be started.
Last I looked the banners said to drop off daughters for a good time, that may be in bad taste for some folks but has nothing to do with rape. jmo idk

 

[BritsKate]

Can a thread on Rape be started.
Last I looked the banners said to drop off daughters for a good time, that may be in bad taste for some folks but has nothing to do with rape. jmo idk

You said as much on page 2. School officials, however, disagree. I'd replied to your previous post with quotes from the statements released by faculty of ODU.

The school officials who denounced the banners made a correlation between them and sexual assault themselves. Actually, they also mentioned relationship violence, dating violence, sexual harassment, and violence against women in their statements too.

So while some may feel they're just a poor attempt at a joke, school officials themselves have taken a very different stance.