VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[bluesneakers]

Totally agree, but that's not always the case. And let's be honest, some parents aren't good role models either.

Someone can have talent, ability, or fame, and give money to charity and be an awful person.

The trouble with role models is they often come crashing down and then you're crushed, feel betrayed, and feel like you can't trust anyone to fill that position again. My daughter and I worked on things about people, separating artists from their art, athletic abilities from personalities, actors and their characters, women singers and stars from how they dress (my talk on the way the Spice Girls, and Britney, dressed would take several paragraphs at least).

I was paying attention when Charles Barkley said "I am not a role model."

eta: Jared, Bill Cosby, and Josh Duggar used to be role models, for instance.

 

[Donjeta]

But the main problem is that the "University's definition of rape' is not the same as the regular criminal code. In regular life, you don't need to consent every 20 seconds, like the college code now requires.

JMO, in college, and everywhere else, you need to consent all the time.

 

[jjenny]

JMO, in college, and everywhere else, you need to consent all the time.

What exactly does that mean? Every second, people engaging in sex are supposed to be saying "yes.?"

 

[Donjeta]

What exactly does that mean? Every second, people engaging in sex are supposed to be saying "yes.?"

JMO. they don't have to say anything if consent is otherwise clear. But they do have to consent. Otherwise it's not consensual, and that's problematic.

 

[jjenny]

JMO. they don't have to say anything if consent is otherwise clear. But they do have to consent. Otherwise it's not consensual, and that's problematic.

With affirmative consent, they very much have to say Yes. Then, using your logic that consent has to be given all the time, they will have to continue saying that Yes until sex act is completed.
Otherwise, how would one know if consent was withdrawn at any point of time?

 

[Donjeta]

JMO it's not that complicated. Sex is fun and nice if both parties like what's happening. Otherwise not so much.

 

[jjenny]

JMO it's not that complicated. Sex is fun and nice if both parties like what's happening. Otherwise not so much.

If it were all so simple, we wouldn't be discussing all these sexual assault allegations and lawsuits.

 

[katydid23]

JMO it's not that complicated. Sex is fun and nice if both parties like what's happening. Otherwise not so much.

But nowadays it is that complicated. Some males are being accused of rape, even if a female has consented, before and during the consensual event. Because if she decides later that she was too drunk or high, then he is a rapist. OR if she decides later that she changed her mind DURING the sexual act, then she can accuse him of not stopping.

Also, the NEWLY revised form of consent is complicated:

A slide projected onstage defined consent through three "pillars": "Knowing exactly what and how much I'm agreeing to; expressing my intent to participate; deciding freely and voluntarily to participate."

Instead of waiting for your partner to say "no," speakers onstage told students, you should seek an explicit "yes." It could come in the form of a smile, a nod or a verbal yes, as long as it's unambiguous, "enthusiastic" and ongoing.


Often referred to as affirmative consent, it's the concept of both parties agreeing to sexual conduct, either through clear, verbal communication or nonverbal cues or gestures.

The legislation has the support of victims' rights groups, violence prevention groups and the University of California System. But critics worry it could define a great deal of sexual activity as "sexual assault" and undermine due process rights of the accused.

The disconnect underscores "the serious difficulty that passage of SB 967 would present to campus administrators across California," he said. "Under this legislation, students who are or may become sexually active must now worry about documenting that they obtained consent, because proving affirmative consent is the only way to defend oneself before a campus tribunal."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/living/affirmative-consent-school-policy/

 

[katydid23]

JMO. they don't have to say anything if consent is otherwise clear. But they do have to consent. Otherwise it's not consensual, and that's problematic.

That is not true that consent is ever 'otherwise clear.' In the new 'Affirmative consent' decree, even ongoing monogamous relationships are not seen as having any implied consent. The male must receive 'affirmative consent' throughout the sexual interlude. Also:

In evaluating sexual misconduct claims, SB 967 calls for schools to apply a "preponderance of evidence" standard, similar to Title IX. It's a lower standard of proof, used in civil cases, instead of the "beyond a reasonable doubt" bar used in criminal trials.

That's another point of contention for people who say SB 967 undermines due process rights by subjecting the accused to a lower culpability threshold without the protections offered by criminal and civil courts -- such as the mandatory exchange of evidence known as discovery and restrictions on hearsay and prior bad act evidence.

"Those accused in campus tribunals are generally denied these protections -- but nevertheless are subject to life-changing sanctions, based on little more than a hunch by campus court participants that one person's story is slightly more credible," Cohn said.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/living/affirmative-consent-school-policy/

 

[al66pine]

Totally agree, but that's not always the case. And let's be honest, some parents aren't good role models either.

True, some parents are not good role models but does not mean they should point offspring to celeb's as role models, jmo.
Back on topic now?

 

[Donjeta]

Instead of waiting for your partner to say "no," speakers onstage told students, you should seek an explicit "yes." It could come in the form of a smile, a nod or a verbal yes, as long as it's unambiguous, "enthusiastic" and ongoing.

So just a smile or nod would do.
I don't see a problem here. Why would I even want to have sex with someone who looks grumpy, disinterested, and less than excited? Showing some sort of engagement in the act would be preferable to "does he even want to do this with me? oh that is very ambiguous...he doesn't even smile...."....

 

[LaneGirl]

I think just knowing there are false accusations should cause one to pause just a second and get the facts before one makes a judgement call.
The grey area is the fact that usually there are only 2 people involved and it becomes a "he said/she said".

Having said that I'm not in any way saying we shouldn't take a rape accusation very seriously. WE SHOULD and the victim needs a lot of love and understanding even if the details come out, such as mattress girl, one clearly needs some help when they would go so far as to accuse someone of rape.

I've learned in my old age that usually there is a gray area no matter how much I don't want there to be one, in some situations.

 

[freckles]

Sex after someone has said No or Stop or with someone who is unconscious is a crime.

The significance of the circumstances is how the victim is viewed by others.

I have less sympathy for a person who has willingly consumed beverage or drugs that leave them in a state where they are unable to protect themselves from being a victim of any crime (rape, theft, assault, etc).

I also have less sympathy for the accused if they are in a situation with an impaired person that leaves them vulnerable to accusations.

IMO there needs to be more education on responsible drinking in college and less of an attitude of kids will party at school.

If a person gets drunk and wanders down a dark alley and is mugged, a crime has occurred and the perpetrators should be held accountable. But the victim will receive less sympathy because their actions made them vulnerable. Public comments would be - what were they thinking? For the perpetrator, if I was hanging around in a dark alley around a drunk person and they claimed I hit them and took their wallet, how would I defend myself. I made the decision to be in an area with a drunk person with no witnesses. Not a wise decision.

Years ago, there were many classes for women to learn self defense. To me, that suggested that women should be proactive in defending themselves against being a victim of a crime. Being sober is the first thing you can do to protect yourself.

 

[LaneGirl]

Years ago, there were many classes for women to learn self defense. To me, that suggested that women should be proactive in defending themselves against being a victim of a crime. Being sober is the first thing you can do to protect yourself.

Snipped for space - Drinking responsibly is what I taught both my sons and daughters along with know your surroundings and who you are with.

 

[jjenny]

That is not true that consent is ever 'otherwise clear.' In the new 'Affirmative consent' decree, even ongoing monogamous relationships are not seen as having any implied consent. The male must receive 'affirmative consent' throughout the sexual interlude. Also:

In evaluating sexual misconduct claims, SB 967 calls for schools to apply a "preponderance of evidence" standard, similar to Title IX. It's a lower standard of proof, used in civil cases, instead of the "beyond a reasonable doubt" bar used in criminal trials.

That's another point of contention for people who say SB 967 undermines due process rights by subjecting the accused to a lower culpability threshold without the protections offered by criminal and civil courts -- such as the mandatory exchange of evidence known as discovery and restrictions on hearsay and prior bad act evidence.

"Those accused in campus tribunals are generally denied these protections -- but nevertheless are subject to life-changing sanctions, based on little more than a hunch by campus court participants that one person's story is slightly more credible," Cohn said.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/living/affirmative-consent-school-policy/

And how do these colleges decide which story is more credible? Take Rolling Stones article about a student who claimed to be gang raped at a fraternity event. Reporter believed this story and fell for it hook, line and sinker. Reporter didn't do much check beyond what the woman claimed. Sounds like colleges are doing the same thing. Seems like all somebody has to do is to tell a story, sometimes years after the event, and accused can have their life ruined. Story could be completely false or have all kind of embellishments. How are the schools equipped to figure it out? Especially so long after the supposed incident.

 

[freckles]

Part of the problem is schools in the past have not contacted law enforcement and investigated themselves.

If a crime is reported, only law enforcement should handle it.

 

[katydid23]

So just a smile or nod would do.
I don't see a problem here. Why would I even want to have sex with someone who looks grumpy, disinterested, and less than excited? Showing some sort of engagement in the act would be preferable to "does he even want to do this with me? oh that is very ambiguous...he doesn't even smile...."....

But how does an accused rapist prove there was a smile or a nod, throughout the entire sexual interlude?

 

[flourish]

Part of the problem is schools in the past have not contacted law enforcement and investigated themselves.

If a crime is reported, only law enforcement should handle it.

Agree. While I understand generally support student codes of conduct, universities are part of the real world and are supposed to be helping students be on their own. On the one hand I like the affirmative ongoing consent idea because it makes people more aware of consent (in theory at least). However LE should always be called in on a crime whether or not it occurred on campus. I think mattress girl set "us" back.



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[katydid23]

Part of the problem is schools in the past have not contacted law enforcement and investigated themselves.

If a crime is reported, only law enforcement should handle it.

The main problem is that the way colleges define 'rape' is not the same legal definition that LE uses.

 

[Donjeta]

But how does an accused rapist prove there was a smile or a nod, throughout the entire sexual interlude?

Well but even if it's okay to continue after consent has been revoked in the middle of the interlude, how does he prove that there was some consent in the beginning? Or sometime in the middle? After a while?

The issue of being able to prove consent or not does not change substantially even if we assume that consent is required only some of the time.

JMO but the people who take care to reassure themselves that there is expressed consent probably get accused of being rapists somewhat less often than those who don't.

I don't think it's necessary to keep nodding throughout the whole session but if it's ambiguous and I'm not sure whether the other person consents or not it's clever to find out. MOO.