VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

  • #341
example case:

UC San Diego didn't give male student fair trial in sex case, judge rules

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83989229/

UC San Diego failed to give a fair trial to a male student it found responsible for sexual misconduct last year by refusing to allow him to fully confront and cross-examine his accuser, a judge has ruled.

In what is believed to be the first ruling against the University of California in a sexual misconduct case, San Diego County Superior Court Judge Joel M. Pressman found there was insufficient evidence to support charges that the student, identified only as John Doe, had pressed a classmate to engage in sexual activity against her will in February 2014. Pressman ordered the university to drop its finding against Doe and all sanctions, including a suspension of one year and a quarter.

"It's a huge relief," said Doe, who asked for anonymity to protect his future academic and career plans.

The case is being watched nationally, as concern has grown that the intensified crackdown on campus sexual assault over the last few years has skewed too far against those accused, violating their due process rights. Last fall, 28 Harvard Law School faculty members published an opinion article condemning their campus procedures on sexual assault cases as lacking "the most basic elements of fairness and due process" and "overwhelmingly stacked against the accused."


In the San Diego case, Doe met the accuser, identified as Jane Roe, at a party in January 2014 and began a sexual relationship later that month. Both sides agreed that at least some of the sex was consensual. But four months later, in June, Roe filed a complaint alleging three instances of sexual misconduct in late January and early February, all of which Doe denied.

Elena Acevedo Dalcourt, UC San Diego's campus complaint resolution officer, found insufficient evidence for two of the charges but determined that the third allegation of digital penetration without consent was valid.



JMO but assuming he was falsely accused, the problem is not that consent is required for sex. The problem is that sexual assault allegations should be dealt by due process. I think courts are usually a better venue than educational institutions.
 
  • #342
JMO but assuming he was falsely accused, the problem is not that consent is required for sex. The problem is that sexual assault allegations should be dealt by due process. I think courts are usually a better venue than educational institutions.

A lot of these types of cases would never come into courts, because there is no evidence.
Yet students are expelled and their careers ruined.
 
  • #343
I find the affirmative ongoing consent idea ridiculous. It's not enough to get consent before the act, somebody is supposed to continually ask during the act if consent is still present?
How often is someone supposed to be asking that?
Well, before which act though?? You kissed me which was cool but does that mean you can just grab my breasts? Or, I was okay with giving oral pleasure so does that automatically mean I'm wanting or consenting to getting oral sex now? Isn't it just best to err on the side of caution and not assume something so serious? I think so.

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  • #344
Of course, neither partner should submit to any action they do not want to take part in. Getting up and leaving should always be an option, for either party. If any force is used, rape should be charged and prosecuted, imo.

My problem is with the less cut and dry cases. The way it is now, it is strongly stacked against the male students. The female can give an initial consent, enthusiastically say yes, even spend the night with the male. And then one, two, three years later she can walk into a Title IX office and accuse the male of rape. All they need is her word and he will be expelled and his life may be ruined as he cannot transfer, nor graduate. Cannot get a good job with that record.

Even if he submits proof that she was voluntarily on the date, they dated for awhile, had sex previously, and she consented to have sex that night, if she said she withheld consent halfway through and he continued, he is considered a rapist, with no proof but her word. And there is NO WAY that he would be able to combat that lie. Especially with the new way of 'investigating' and
'reviewing' these cases. It is GUILTY until proven innocent, which is impossible.
Biology has stacked the decks against women in the first place.

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  • #345
But what if an 18 yr old THINKS the other person wants to be in bed with them? That is the problem. Young people, 'hooking up', with very little clear communication.


Yeah it is understandable that young people who are still giving this sex thing a test run could be confused and have more trouble interpreting their partner's signs and utterances. But even so, I don't think "she didn't say anything but I thought she wanted it" cuts it as an excuse for sexual assault. I think it's important for sex education to cover issues of consent, and remind people that what they think what their partner wants or what they think s/he rightfully should be wanting (because come on, dude, you're so hot, all the girls want you...) isn't necessarily true just because they think so. Maybe some role playing exercises.... consent 🤬🤬🤬🤬... :P

It's not rocket science IMO. Most people have a mouth and two ears and they can talk. If they're not too shy to hop into bed naked with a stranger, they shouldn't be too shy to communicate. If you're worried that your partner might report you for rape three years later maybe your relationship is not at the sex-is-advisable stage yet.

I dunno but so far my system seems to be working, I have been pretty certain that my partners were consensual and I have never been accused of rape after a consensual encounter.

How often does this really happen? People have consensual sex and the woman suddenly decides to report the guy for rape years later?

Maybe sometimes it really was rape and the guy got away with it for years?
 
  • #346
JMO but assuming he was falsely accused, the problem is not that consent is required for sex. The problem is that sexual assault allegations should be dealt by due process. I think courts are usually a better venue than educational institutions.

Of course 'consent is required' for sex. No question about that. The question is, since the accused can no longer rely upon showing initial consent as proof of their innocence, how are they now expected to prove that the accuser gave them 'on going affirmative consent?' Pretty much impossible task for the accused to manage.

And OF COURSE there should be due process for the accused. BUT THERE IS NOT ANYMORE on many campuses. And many cases do not make it to the courts because of a lack of evidence. But that doesn't stop University officials. They are expelling male students with very little, if any, evidence of wrongdoing.
 
  • #347
Yeah it is understandable that young people who are still giving this sex thing a test run could be confused and have more trouble interpreting their partner's signs and utterances. But even so, I don't think "she didn't say anything but I thought she wanted it" cuts it as an excuse for sexual assault. I think it's important for sex education to cover issues of consent, and remind people that what they think what their partner wants or what they think s/he rightfully should be wanting (because come on, dude, you're so hot, all the girls want you...) isn't necessarily true just because they think so. Maybe some role playing exercises.... consent 🤬🤬🤬🤬... :P

It's not rocket science IMO. Most people have a mouth and two ears and they can talk. If they're not too shy to hop into bed naked with a stranger, they shouldn't be too shy to communicate. If you're worried that your partner might report you for rape three years later maybe your relationship is not at the sex-is-advisable stage yet.

I dunno but so far my system seems to be working, I have been pretty certain that my partners were consensual and I have never been accused of rape after a consensual encounter.

How often does this really happen? People have consensual sex and the woman suddenly decides to report the guy for rape years later?

Maybe sometimes it really was rape and the guy got away with it for years?

Here is an article from a week ago, listing a group of 80 male students suing for unfair treatment by colleges:

http://www.avoiceformalestudents.co...ss-violations-in-adjudicating-sexual-assault/



Predictably, a wave of lawsuits soon erupted as young men wrongly accused of sex crimes found themselves hustled through a vague and misshapen adjudication process with slipshod checks and balances and Kafkaesque standards of evidence. This page is dedicated to cataloging their legal challenges against schools which – they allege – have violated their rights to due process, unjustly destroyed their names, deprived them of educational opportunities, and committed various other injustices against them in the name of “just following orders.”

This database exists as a public service to victims, their families, attorneys, advocates, journalists, scholars, and concerned citizens. Because it maintains records of due concerning sexual assault cases in particular (not sexual misconduct in general) sexual harassment cases will not be included in the database at this time; AVFMS will maintaining unpublished records of such cases, however, in the event that the database will be expanded.
 
  • #348
Here is an article from a week ago, listing a group of 80 male students suing for unfair treatment by colleges:

http://www.avoiceformalestudents.co...ss-violations-in-adjudicating-sexual-assault/



Predictably, a wave of lawsuits soon erupted as young men wrongly accused of sex crimes found themselves hustled through a vague and misshapen adjudication process with slipshod checks and balances and Kafkaesque standards of evidence. This page is dedicated to cataloging their legal challenges against schools which – they allege – have violated their rights to due process, unjustly destroyed their names, deprived them of educational opportunities, and committed various other injustices against them in the name of “just following orders.”

This database exists as a public service to victims, their families, attorneys, advocates, journalists, scholars, and concerned citizens. Because it maintains records of due concerning sexual assault cases in particular (not sexual misconduct in general) sexual harassment cases will not be included in the database at this time; AVFMS will maintaining unpublished records of such cases, however, in the event that the database will be expanded.

That's an MRA site. I wouldn't trust any information they produce.

Here is a link to the Southern Poverty Law Center. A Voice For Men is the last entry: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2012/misogyny-sites
 
  • #349
Of course 'consent is required' for sex. No question about that. The question is, since the accused can no longer rely upon showing initial consent as proof of their innocence, how are they now expected to prove that the accuser gave them 'on going affirmative consent?' Pretty much impossible task for the accused to manage.

And OF COURSE there should be due process for the accused. BUT THERE IS NOT ANYMORE on many campuses. And many cases do not make it to the courts because of a lack of evidence. But that doesn't stop University officials. They are expelling male students with very little, if any, evidence of wrongdoing.

RBBM

A selfie with a woman selecting condoms or giving a thumbs up doesn't constitute consent for sex IMO. It sounds to me like a trap by men...sorry if this is unfair.
 
  • #350
  • #351
That's an MRA site. I wouldn't trust any information they produce.

Here is a link to the Southern Poverty Law Center. A Voice For Men is the last entry: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2012/misogyny-sites

So this site has a data base with the following:


State/ School/ Date Filed /Plaintiff's Attorney(s)/ Case No./ Legal File(s)/ Summary,/ Distinctive Attributes/ Outcome/


That info^^^ is given for 80 cases brought by males who feel unfairly treated. How is it that we can ignore that data just because the Poverty Law Center calls them misonygists?


ETA:
EDITORIAL: The FBI dumps a ‘hate group’
The Southern Poverty Law Center is no longer ‘a resource’


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/28/editorial-the-fbi-dumps-a-hate-group/
 
  • #352
RBBM

A selfie with a woman selecting condoms or giving a thumbs up doesn't constitute consent for sex IMO. It sounds to me like a trap by men...sorry if this is unfair.

It may seem so. But what should male students do to protect themselves from false accusations then?
 
  • #353
These banners are really silly and I don't see the point of them, but the backlash seems ultra-puritan and anti-sex.

No. More like anti-misogyny and the date-rapey, gang-rapey culture that evolves from it.

Sex is great. And I see nothing wrong with college kids having consensual sex. This is not that. This exemplifies everything wrong about the attitudes of certain frat boys regarding women.
 
  • #354
Interesting to note that 'A Voice for Men' has been previously cited in this thread as well -- I seem to recall the author quoted was described here as a 'progressive feminist'. Baloney.

So we are just supposed to post studies from the left and the progressives and ignore any opposing voices?
 
  • #355
It may seem so. But what should male students do to protect themselves from false accusations then?

The world has become so complicated for the younger generations. Fights in school are now assaults. Minor drug busts can affect their entire lives. Verbal confrontations are classified as bullying or hate crimes.

Since I have sons, I do see that there are good men out there. Probably more than there are bad abusive men.

There are good women and there are also deceitful and manipulative women. And IMO, the manipulative women hold more power than men. They can claim assault, rape, decide to have a child.

I think back to years ago. My son was 12 and would come to his little brother's baseball games. One of the teammate's little sister (6) liked my son. She would ask him to push her on the swings, etc during the games. It sickens me when I look back how easily my son could have been viewed as having a bad intention towards her and it disgusts me that boys and men are looked at with suspicion at all times based on their gender.
 
  • #356
Here is an article from a week ago, listing a group of 80 male students suing for unfair treatment by colleges:

http://www.avoiceformalestudents.co...ss-violations-in-adjudicating-sexual-assault/



Predictably, a wave of lawsuits soon erupted as young men wrongly accused of sex crimes found themselves hustled through a vague and misshapen adjudication process with slipshod checks and balances and Kafkaesque standards of evidence. This page is dedicated to cataloging their legal challenges against schools which – they allege – have violated their rights to due process, unjustly destroyed their names, deprived them of educational opportunities, and committed various other injustices against them in the name of “just following orders.”

This database exists as a public service to victims, their families, attorneys, advocates, journalists, scholars, and concerned citizens. Because it maintains records of due concerning sexual assault cases in particular (not sexual misconduct in general) sexual harassment cases will not be included in the database at this time; AVFMS will maintaining unpublished records of such cases, however, in the event that the database will be expanded.


As far as I can see, just because someone sues their university for not following proper procedures doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't do what they were accused for. Plenty of guilty people have sued people for this and that. It's quite possible for guilty people to have their rights to due process violated too, not just innocent souls who never hurt anyone.
 
  • #357
As far as I can see, just because someone sues their university for not following proper procedures doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't do what they were accused for. Plenty of guilty people have sued people for this and that. It's quite possible for guilty people to have their rights to due process violated too, not just innocent souls who never hurt anyone.

Of course some of them MIGHT be guilty. But that doesn't mean we should take away their due process rights.
 
  • #358
It may seem so. But what should male students do to protect themselves from false accusations then?


What do female students do to protect themselves from accusations? I'm not seeing droves of male college students falsely accusing ladies of sexual assault. Is it possible the women have more sex with males who actually consented?
 
  • #359
Of course some of them MIGHT be guilty. But that doesn't mean we should take away their due process rights.

I don't see anyone in this thread claiming they should be taken away.
 
  • #360
Of course 'consent is required' for sex. No question about that. The question is, since the accused can no longer rely upon showing initial consent as proof of their innocence, how are they now expected to prove that the accuser gave them 'on going affirmative consent?' Pretty much impossible task for the accused to manage.

And OF COURSE there should be due process for the accused. BUT THERE IS NOT ANYMORE on many campuses. And many cases do not make it to the courts because of a lack of evidence. But that doesn't stop University officials. They are expelling male students with very little, if any, evidence of wrongdoing.
Yeah I strongly disagree that ongoing consent is too much to manage. If you're really not okay with checking in with your partner then you really aren't ready to be having sex.

I feel like there's an opposition to ongoing consent here and I don't think I understand it. If there's so much concern about being wrongfully accused of rape then ensuring consent is ongoing is a way to make sure everything is clear.

People are wrongfully accused of crimes besides rape, too. Too much clarity re consent is never actually too much IMO.

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