VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[rob]

In the late 70's, yeah way back when I was a teen, on a Saturday nite at a local hangout, a couple arrived, both already drunk (underage), showed their ignorance inside the place, then proceded outside to the back seat of the boys car. Many people were outside and saw what was going on, right there in the parking lot. Several guys walked over to watch and cheer them on. Several girls called them disgusting (the watchers) and we got in our car and left. Come Monday, the boy was at school, but not the girl. Then we heard that she was accusing him. We all knew that in the light of day, knowing that anyone who didn't actually see it, had heard about it. The police asked around, got the same story from everybody but her. She never returned to school and her family moved away. If that happened today, there would be thousands of pictures taken and circulated, it would never go away. But this girl was up and walking, obviously been drinking, but no more so than the boy. Should the boy had been held more accountable than her? And let me add, she was the type you couldn't talk out of bad behavior, just this time it definitely went too far.

 

[rob]

I would like to add one more little note on this, drunks, both male and female, make bad decisions.

 

[Donjeta]

To criticize a rape victim's actions is one thing. To assign blame to the rape victim is another. How many cases has a rape victim been on the stand and accused by the defense to have "asked for it" by the way they dressed, were drunk, whatever stupid excuse they can come up with? It's one thing to say that it was unwise for a rape victim to make the choices they did that put them in a position that someone took advantage of it/them. It's another to say that they are to blame, as much as the rapist is, for them being raped. I don't like the idea of assigning blame to the victim at all. The rapist is the one that was the aggressor, the one that committed the crime. This is one of the biggest reasons why so many rapes (against males AND females) go unreported. The victim knows that they will be blamed. And that practice has to stop, IMO.

MOO

And why is it always the rape victims who get this treatment? If you're a victim of an iPhone theft or a carjacking, there are no threads debating whether the victim was to blame because he was drunk and kept the phone in an open pocket and was practically asking for all his valuables to disappear, and the defense attorneys don't attack the carjacking victim asking what the hell he was doing on that street in such an expensive car at that time of night, didn't he know that it was high risk behavior and really he brought it on himself.

 

[MamaJoJo]

These frat signs have been displayed on freshman drop off days for years at many colleges and universities. I remember them at Vanderbilt in 1975. Our culture has changed a lot since then and it is not exactly "PC" to display them. But I did smile when I saw the banner about dropping the moms off too. No stones please!

My husband laughed when he saw the banners; I was (and am) appalled by them. He had a great time in his frat (mid-70's) and saw (before I enlightened him :wink the banners as a bit crass but playful. I, on the other hand, was one of those girls who drank too much and sought love in all the wrong places during college. I was perfect bait, so to speak. There was lots of fun sex had, many regretful encounters, and one rape (by any of the definitions listed in the last six pages).

Rape is rape. If you don't consent to the action but the action is taken anyway, it's rape. Most everyone who has been raped knows it.

Sure there are events in which the person is unconscious, blacked out, pretty sloshed and if you don't remember the assault then it's hard to know if you've been raped. That's an awful place to be in but there is no recourse unless the assault was video taped or the gentleman confesses.

I have been sort of quiet on this thread even though my post was what got this conversation started. Speaking from my own experiences, I have always regretted my actions, how my deep desires to be loved became twisted into having sexual relations with anyone who'd look my way, how partying made it easier to justify. Not one man ever complained or felt pressured by me; they were all perfectly happy, eager I'd say, to play around. Most guys were fine not going all the way, some guys would try to convince me otherwise, some succeeded, and one wouldn't take no for an answer.

For all that want to say that I shouldn't have put myself in that position, that I am to blame for drinking too much and taking my clothes off too soon, have at it, if you want. It was the position that my life's trajectory put me in. That's who I was at the time. But, one thing to note, all of my sexual interactions were between intoxicated, horny, consenting adults, except for once, when I withdrew consent. The man didn't like it so he took what he wanted. To me, that interaction was rape.

 

[katydid23]

JMO there's a fine line, but a real line, between saying some behaviors and choices increase your risk of being a victim of crime, and saying that if you did X you're responsible for your own rape, or assault, or whatever crime.

The first I've said many times and it's a common sense thing really. People need to be aware of the things they can do to protect themselves.

Some things you do make you more vulnerable. If you're passing out drunk in the middle of the street your risk of being raped, robbed, dying in a traffic accident, dying of exposure, etc. is probably bigger than if you're walking there sober.

The second is victim blaming and minimizes, decreases or eliminates the responsibility of the perp for his or her own actions.

Right. Thank you, for understanding what I am trying to say. Some things a woman does can make her more vulnerable. Like meeting a couple of strangers in a bar and inviting them back to her home or going to theirs, alone. That does not give them a green light to sexually assault her. No one is saying that. But it is reckless and irresponsible on her part because she has no way to protect herself if they turn out to be predators. And we need to teach our young women to take more responsibility for their own safety, not less.

 

[Donjeta]

We allegedly have a huge surge of sexual assaults on our campuses. At the same time, we have adopted a stance that we will never criticize reckless or irresponsible behavior of the potential rape victims. We put it all on the males and none on the females. And then we go an extra step and take due process away from the accused, since people are not always believing the accusers. I think it is the wrong direction to go in.

Why can't we say ' YES, I should not have gotten drunk with a stranger and gone into his room alone, but the rape is his fault, not mine. " But we want to say " it is totally fine to get drunk with a total stranger and go into his bedroom alone with him, no problem there, do it as much as you want because you have no accountability or responsibility in this situation. ' Blaming the victim is wrong. But I think some criticism is sometimes warranted. But in the 'rape culture' criticism of the victims is NEVER allowed.

I think it is wrong to teach that philosophy to our young women.

I see this a bit theoretical. Thinking back on many rape victims' stories, I think that most people who get raped react more along the lines of "I should not have gotten drunk with a stranger and gone into his room alone", and "what else should I have done differently to avoid this", and "I was soooo stupid, it was my fault for doing this and that..." and blame themselves both for things that were their choice and things that weren't their choice.... Victims blame themselves a wide variety of behaviors ranging from drug use to walking home from work or being home with a relative. I've never ever talked with a rape victim who says, "it was totally okay that I was in the situation where I got raped and I have no accountability whatsoever"

We can try to talk about decreasing our tendency to victim blame but the victims tend to blame themselves regardless.

 

[katydid23]

My husband laughed when he saw the banners; I was (and am) appalled by them. He had a great time in his frat (mid-70's) and saw (before I enlightened him :wink the banners as a bit crass but playful. I, on the other hand, was one of those girls who drank too much and sought love in all the wrong places during college. I was perfect bait, so to speak. There was lots of fun sex had, many regretful encounters, and one rape (by any of the definitions listed in the last six pages).

Rape is rape. If you don't consent to the action but the action is taken anyway, it's rape. Most everyone who has been raped knows it.

Sure there are events in which the person is unconscious, blacked out, pretty sloshed and if you don't remember the assault then it's hard to know if you've been raped. That's an awful place to be in but there is no recourse unless the assault was video taped or the gentleman confesses.

I have been sort of quiet on this thread even though my post was what got this conversation started. Speaking from my own experiences, I have always regretted my actions, how my deep desires to be loved became twisted into having sexual relations with anyone who'd look my way, how partying made it easier to justify. Not one man ever complained or felt pressured by me; they were all perfectly happy, eager I'd say, to play around. Most guys were fine not going all the way, some guys would try to convince me otherwise, some succeeded, and one wouldn't take no for an answer.

For all that want to say that I shouldn't have put myself in that position, that I am to blame for drinking too much and taking my clothes off too soon, have at it, if you want. It was the position that my life's trajectory put me in. That's who I was at the time. But, one thing to note, all of my sexual interactions were between consenting adults, except for once, when I withdrew consent. The man didn't like it so he took what he wanted. To me, that interaction was rape.

That describes my college experiences very well too. I went to UC Berk in the early 70's, during the FREE LOVE generation. And being the victim of childhood sexual abuse, my head was not really screwed on tight. I was also, like you described, looking for love in all the wrong places. I put myself in some very precarious situations, was promiscuous but was having a great time, for the most part. The problem was that I was wanting love and romance and a relationship. But it took me awhile to fully understand that taking off my clothes on the first date was not going to get me that.

All my interactions were between consenting adults too, except for one that I can remember. I went to a boy's apt with him after a long wild party, and we drank and partied in his living room. At some point he disappeared and his roomie slid into his place. And I remember doing some vocal protesting about the substitution, but I was pretty drunk and high, and pretty much stuck there in downtown Oakland at 3 am, tripping and drunk on tequila. I complied because I felt there were no real options.

By the standard definition of rape, he was guilty. But looking at my own behavior and irresponsible actions, I was guilty too. I was laying half naked in a strangers apartment, where I went voluntarily, after taking mescaline and drinking tequila all night. I shared some responsibility for the situation. The 'rapist' was also drunk and high and felt fortunate that his roommate brought a stoned drunk 19 yr old home at 2 am, to sit on the floor and share his bong.

 

[Donjeta]

Right. Thank you, for understanding what I am trying to say. Some things a woman does can make her more vulnerable. Like meeting a couple of strangers in a bar and inviting them back to her home or going to theirs, alone. That does not give them a green light to sexually assault her. No one is saying that. But it is reckless and irresponsible on her part because she has no way to protect herself if they turn out to be predators. And we need to teach our young women to take more responsibility for their own safety, not less.

Yeah... where do we draw the line though? A lot of people get raped by acquaintances who can't be avoided or who were thought to be safe. How do we decide which victims were reckless and irresponsible and should have known better?

 

[LinasK]

The mother CHOSE to bring someone into their home. The child who is assaulted is a victim. A person who is raped is a victim. Both are victims of crimes perpetrated against them and neither chose to be a victim. Blaming a rape victim, which is exactly what these scenarios continue to do, for their own rape or the circumstances that contributed to them being raped takes the emphasis off the perpetrator and perpetuates the myth that it is a victim's responsibility to prevent their own rape. We would never blame that child who is assaulted for what he/she wore to bed that night or for perhaps climbing into their mother's bed after a nightmare. We would never suggest to that child perhaps had they behaved differently, they would not have been assaulted.

There is a huge difference between educating people on risk reduction and assigning culpability to crime victims for crimes perpetrated against them. Risky or irresponsible behaviors aren't a green light to be victimized. Risky or irresponsible behaviors don't make a crime less of a crime. Risky or irresponsible behaviors on the part of the victim should never lessen a criminal's culpability.

A lot of sober people get raped too. FWIW

ETA: In context of attributing responsibility to a rape victim, I think this is a more reasonable scenario to illustrate my point:

Mom's at work. Child invites a stranger into their home and is assaulted. The child engaged in risky and irresponsible behavior that ultimately led to his victimization. But the child did not choose to be victimized. The child simply, mistakenly, decided to invite a stranger in. The perpetrator chose to commit a crime. We would never tell that child he deserved to be assaulted for having made a mistake. We would never excuse the assailant's behavior on the basis that the child invited him in. We wouldn't discount the child's claims of being assaulted on the basis that he'd opened the door. We wouldn't not prosecute for the assault because the child had invited the perpetrator in. We would never justify an attack on a child, regardless of what that child did precipitating the assault.

Thank you. And her 2nd scenario is not far off from what happened to Danielle Van Damme. And although her mother made poor parenting choices in the bar, no one but David Westerfield is responsible for her assault and murder!!!

 

[MamaJoJo]

That describes my college experiences very well too. I went to UC Berk in the early 70's, during the FREE LOVE generation. And being the victim of childhood sexual abuse, my head was not really screwed on tight. I was also, like you described, looking for love in all the wrong places. I put myself in some very precarious situations, was promiscuous but was having a great time, for the most part. The problem was that I was wanting love and romance and a relationship. But it took me awhile to fully understand that taking off my clothes on the first date was not going to get me that.

All my interactions were between consenting adults too, except for one that I can remember. I went to a boy's apt with him after a long wild party, and we drank and partied in his living room. At some point he disappeared and his roomie slid into his place. And I remember doing some vocal protesting about the substitution, but I was pretty drunk and high, and pretty much stuck there in downtown Oakland at 3 am, tripping and drunk on tequila. I complied because I felt there were no real options.

By the standard definition of rape, he was guilty. But looking at my own behavior and irresponsible actions, I was guilty too. I was laying half naked in a strangers apartment, where I went voluntarily, after taking mescaline and drinking tequila all night. I shared some responsibility for the situation. The 'rapist' was also drunk and high and felt fortunate that his roommate brought a stoned drunk 19 yr old home at 2 am, to sit on the floor and share his bong.

You say you "complied", so does that mean that you never withdrew consent? There were times that I "complied", too, but I put those experiences into the "regrettable sex" category. I feel I was raped when I said, "Stop!" and he didn't.

I'm not in anyway trying to suggest you weren't raped if you feel you were. I'm just trying to figure out this "consent" business. This thread has brought many skeletons out of my closet. A closet that has been locked tight since I got out of school in 1992. I put it all behind me until that dinner with friends I posted about up thread. Now, this thread has rattled the bones some more. Ugh!

 

[LinasK]

JMO there's a fine line, but a real line, between saying some behaviors and choices increase your risk of being a victim of crime, and saying that if you did X you're responsible for your own rape, or assault, or whatever crime.

The first I've said many times and it's a common sense thing really. People need to be aware of the things they can do to protect themselves.

Some things you do make you more vulnerable. If you're passing out drunk in the middle of the street your risk of being raped, robbed, dying in a traffic accident, dying of exposure, etc. is probably bigger than if you're walking there sober.

The second is victim blaming and minimizes, decreases or eliminates the responsibility of the perp for his or her own actions.

Well-said!:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:

 

[LinasK]

To criticize a rape victim's actions is one thing. To assign blame to the rape victim is another. How many cases has a rape victim been on the stand and accused by the defense to have "asked for it" by the way they dressed, were drunk, whatever stupid excuse they can come up with? It's one thing to say that it was unwise for a rape victim to make the choices they did that put them in a position that someone took advantage of it/them. It's another to say that they are to blame, as much as the rapist is, for them being raped. I don't like the idea of assigning blame to the victim at all. The rapist is the one that was the aggressor, the one that committed the crime. This is one of the biggest reasons why so many rapes (against males AND females) go unreported. The victim knows that they will be blamed. And that practice has to stop, IMO.

MOO

YES, just YES!!!!!

 

[LinasK]

We allegedly have a huge surge of sexual assaults on our campuses. At the same time, we have adopted a stance that we will never criticize reckless or irresponsible behavior of the potential rape victims. We put it all on the males and none on the females. And then we go an extra step and take due process away from the accused, since people are not always believing the accusers. I think it is the wrong direction to go in.

Why can't we say ' YES, I should not have gotten drunk with a stranger and gone into his room alone, but the rape is his fault, not mine. " But we want to say " it is totally fine to get drunk with a total stranger and go into his bedroom alone with him, no problem there, do it as much as you want because you have no accountability or responsibility in this situation. ' Blaming the victim is wrong. But I think some criticism is sometimes warranted. But in the 'rape culture' criticism of the victims is NEVER allowed.

I think it is wrong to teach that philosophy to our young women.

BBM. Just whom is teaching that to our daughters??? We should always teach risk-management and personal responsibility. But you can do all those things right and still fail. Children, like myself, have done none of those things and still get attacked. So do young women, so do old women. Did Joanna Petit drunkenly bring home her attackers, NO!

 

[katydid23]

Yeah... where do we draw the line though? A lot of people get raped by acquaintances who can't be avoided or who were thought to be safe. How do we decide which victims were reckless and irresponsible and should have known better?

How do we draw the line when a mother's kids are harmed or injured? Bad things can happen even when we take normal precautions. I have never blamed my mother for my being a victim of childhood sexual abuse because it was not her fault. She left my father because he was cheating. So she moved back home with her parents. She got a job and her younger brother and sister babysat us after we got home from school. How could she know that her teenaged brother would rape and sodomize me for two years starting when I was in 1st grade? I can't blame her because she was not reckless or irresponsible. But if she met a man online and invited him to move in and he molested me, then I would have seen her as irresponsible.

I think there are a zillion different kinds of rapes. Probably the vast majority of victims were 100% victimized with no irresponsibility on their part. But I don't think we should say that to everyone and pretend that recklessness and drugs/alcohol play no part.

 

[MamaJoJo]

I would like to thank some WS members for their steadfast stances about not blaming the victim. Flourish, BritsKate and Bluesneakers (and others), over the last week, you have immensely helped me understand some things in my past. Reading your posts have helped me heal in ways I didn't know that I needed to. Thank you.

 

[TorisMom003]

Right. Thank you, for understanding what I am trying to say. Some things a woman does can make her more vulnerable. Like meeting a couple of strangers in a bar and inviting them back to her home or going to theirs, alone. That does not give them a green light to sexually assault her. No one is saying that. But it is reckless and irresponsible on her part because she has no way to protect herself if they turn out to be predators. And we need to teach our young women to take more responsibility for their own safety, not less.

We need to teach our young men the same exact thing. The young men are also putting themselves at risk. If a young man (any male) has sex with an almost stranger that then turns around and yells rape, isn't that something that the young man should know is a possibility?

I have taught my girls about protecting themselves. Hopefully it sunk in but there is a chance that it did not. If I had a son I would feel just as responsible to teach him the same things.

My 18 year old daughter just started her freshman year of college. While I can not be there to remind her of the things I taught her I do hope that she remembers them and does the right things. However, if she is in a situation where she says No and a male continues anyway then yes that is rape in my eyes no matter how much she may have "led him on".

That is another lesson that ALL need to learn. No means No. Period.

MOO

 

[LinasK]

I would like to thank some WS members for their steadfast stances about not blaming the victim. Flourish, BritsKate and Bluesneakers (and others), over the last week, you have immensely helped me understand somethings in my past. Reading your posts have helped me heal in ways I didn't know that I needed to. Thank you.

Bravo to these members! Standing Ovation! :clap::clap::clap:

 

[LinasK]

How do we draw the line when a mother's kids are harmed or injured? Bad things can happen even when we take normal precautions. I have never blamed my mother for my being a victim of childhood sexual abuse because it was not her fault. She left my father because he was cheating. So she moved back home with her parents. She got a job and her younger brother and sister babysat us after we got home from school. How could she know that her teenaged brother would rape and sodomize me for two years starting when I was in 1st grade? I can't blame her because she was not reckless or irresponsible. But if she met a man online and invited him to move in and he molested me, then I would have seen her as irresponsible.

I do partly blame my mother (may she Rest In Peace) to some extent for my assault because it was her job to protect me. When I told her it was her brother, she refused to believe me, still attempted to get me together with him on several family occasions- including heavily pressuring me to invite him to my wedding (knowing what he had done by that point!)

 

[katydid23]

BBM. Just whom is teaching that to our daughters??? We should always teach risk-management and personal responsibility. But you can do all those things right and still fail. Children, like myself, have done none of those things and still get attacked. So do young women, so do old women. Did Joanna Petit drunkenly bring home her attackers, NO!

Who is teaching that to our daughters? OTHER girls at school, imo.

There is a vast, wild trend on many college campuses in which aggressive sexual behavior by college co-eds is applauded. Hook Up Mania, with phone apps like TINDER, FRIENDSY, or the LEAGUE are recipes for disaster. Girls have been convinced that they should behave just like male 'playahs' behaved in the 80's---lots of non-committed partners , random sex, friends with benefits. Girls may send lots of naked pix to boys they want to hook up with, send racy texts, and just want to 'have some fun.' That is very liberating.

But it does NOTHING to teach risk-management and personal responsibility.

 

[bluesneakers]

BBM. Just whom is teaching that to our daughters??? We should always teach risk-management and personal responsibility. But you can do all those things right and still fail. Children, like myself, have done none of those things and still get attacked. So do young women, so do old women. Did Joanna Petit drunkenly bring home her attackers, NO!

Purely anecdotal, obviously, but I have never talked to another parent of a daughter who taught her anything like "Go get drunk in a boy's room and do whatever. You don't have to be held accountable." What I've seen is teaching our daughters personal responsibility wrt to sex and drinking, but also reenforcing the idea they don't HAVE to do something just because they're in a situation. IMO there's a difference between "Go to a stranger's house and get drunk but feel free to say no if he wants sex because being responsible for anything isn't on you" and "If you are in a stranger's house, drunk, and you don't want to have sex you don't have to."