VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[katydid23]

I do partly blame my mother (may she Rest In Peace) to some extent for my assault because it was her job to protect me. When I told her it was her brother, she refused to believe me, still attempted to get me together with him on several family occasions- including heavily pressuring me to invite him to my wedding (knowing what he had done by that point!)

:grouphug: I didn't even tell my mother until after my uncle's funeral. I was a chicken and was afraid to bring it up.

 

[bluesneakers]

I do partly blame my mother (may she Rest In Peace) to some extent for my assault because it was her job to protect me. When I told her it was her brother, she refused to believe me, still attempted to get me together with him on several family occasions- including heavily pressuring me to invite him to my wedding (knowing what he had done by that point!)

OMG!! What a nightmare that would've been!

I'm sorry.

 

[katydid23]

Purely anecdotal, obviously, but I have never talked to another parent of a daughter who taught her anything like "Go get drunk in a boy's room and do whatever. You don't have to be held accountable." What I've seen is teaching our daughters personal responsibility wrt to sex and drinking, but also reenforcing the idea they don't HAVE to do something just because they're in a situation. IMO there's a difference between "Go to a stranger's house and get drunk but feel free to say no if he wants sex because being responsible for anything isn't on you" and "If you are in a stranger's house, drunk, and you don't want to have sex you don't have to."

I have personally seen adults say to college girls " you can walk naked into a boy's room and lie down on his bed, and if he touches you, it is his fault, not yours.' That is what is being told to many college coeds. I have seen that same mantra here as well.

 

[katydid23]

Well but that is not true, is it? Victims get blamed a lot, in the real world.

But here, in this thread, people are saying it is WRONG to ever blame the victim for any of the circumstances, choices or behaviors.

 

[LinasK]

Who is teaching that to our daughters? OTHER girls at school, imo.

There is a vast, wild trend on many college campuses in which aggressive sexual behavior by college co-eds is applauded. Hook Up Mania, with phone apps like TINDER, FRIENDSY, or the LEAGUE are recipes for disaster. Girls have been convinced that they should behave just like male 'playahs' behaved in the 80's---lots of non-committed partners , random sex, friends with benefits. Girls may send lots of naked pix to boys they want to hook up with, send racy texts, and just want to 'have some fun.' That is very liberating.

But it does NOTHING to teach risk-management and personal responsibility.

Okay, well this is news to me. I don't have a college-aged kid yet. I'll be on the lookout for those things. Thank you. I'm only aware of the dangers of Instagram after letting her have it. And just so you know, because of my experiences, and that I follow WS and true crime, I'm always talking to her about risk-management and personal responsibility. I'm also proud of the helicopter parent label.

 

[TorisMom003]

But here, in this thread, people are saying it is WRONG to ever blame the victim for any of the circumstances, choices or behaviors.

BBM

That bolded part, yes it is wrong. As I have said before there is a major difference between questioning their actions and blaming them. The only one to blame in the case of rape is the rapist. NOT the victim. That goes for you (sorry to get personal) as well when you were raped. You were NOT to blame. You made some stupid choices, unwise decisions, but you are not to blame. I feel as if you are (or have recently been) beating yourself up over this. It wasn't your fault.

MOO

 

[LinasK]

:grouphug: I didn't even tell my mother until after my uncle's funeral. I was a chicken and was afraid to bring it up.

Oh believe me, it took me years to work up the courage to tell her. Then one evening the two of us were alone in the jaccuzzi at her house- I was an adult by then and had moved out but was visiting. When I finally told her, she initially looked sad for me for about 30 seconds, then when it registered who it was, I literally saw this "veil" come over her eyes (no other way to describe her change in expression) which meant "Not my brother!" And that was the end of that conversation...

 

[katydid23]

You say you "complied", so does that mean that you never withdrew consent? There were times that I "complied", too, but I put those experiences into the "regrettable sex" category. I feel I was raped when I said, "Stop!" and he didn't.

I'm not in anyway trying to suggest you weren't raped if you feel you were. I'm just trying to figure out this "consent" business. This thread has brought many skeletons out of my closet. A closet that has been locked tight since I got out of school in 1992. I put it all behind me until that dinner with friends I posted about up thread. Now, this thread has rattled the bones some more. Ugh!

I don't know if I ever really gave consent or revoked consent. In my mind I was feeling regret and wishing I was not rolling around naked on the floor with that stranger. And by todays standard it would be 'rape' because I was intoxicated and I never affirmatively gave a clear consent. But in reality it would be unfair to charge the guy with rape. He was a young man who stumbled into his livingroom and found a half naked 'love child' on his floor, loading up his bong. I was going with the flow and giving him green lights. I did say ' Hey where's Johnny, why are you here?' several times. But not angrily or forcefully.

Which is why i have often argued that some sexual incidents are fraught with confusion and miscommunication. JMO

 

[LinasK]

OMG!! What a nightmare that would've been!

I'm sorry.

Hubby and I figured out the best way to handle it (although it was passive-aggressive, which I don't like to be). We sent him a formal invitation to get my mother off my back, then promptly followed it by sending a letter telling him he was disinvited, not to show his face (or I'd tell his sister, and he had another sister as well) and that the only reason he got an invitation was because of my mother. He was too chickened to show up, but sent me blood money- $50 Cash, which I knew was from him because of the zip code it was post-marked from. I didn't want his money, but wanted to penalized him, so my therapist came up with a great suggestion: I donated it to a women's charity for rape victims IN HIS NAME!!!

 

[katydid23]

Oh believe me, it took me years to work up the courage to tell her. Then one evening the two of us were alone in the jaccuzzi at her house- I was an adult by then and had moved out but was visiting. When I finally told her, she initially looked sad for me for about 30 seconds, then when it registered who it was, I literally saw this "veil" come over her eyes (no other way to describe her change in expression) which meant "Not my brother!" And that was the end of that conversation...

WOW. That is EXACTLY how I have describe it before = 'the veil.' I used the exact same term. I was a newlywed and in my late 20's when I first told my mom. And she looked at me with compassion and tears welled up, then within a minute, she processed it all and the 'veil' came down over her eyes, and it is like she pushed it all down inside, and clammed up.

We never spoke of it again until years later. My mom brought it up last year, and she cried and was very upset and apologetic. She asked a lot of questions and we talked about it over a bottle of wine and homemade spaghetti. It was very healing.

 

[Firefliezz21]

"More and more unrealistic scenarios and unusual, atypical incidents are being proffered seemingly as justification for rape as some kind of a mistake or misunderstanding or victims being responsible for what occurred to them because of their actions leading up to being raped."


My purpose in bringing some of these REAL cases to this forum is to show how some of these new so-called 'reforms' are negatively impacting innocent students by taking away their due process, expelling them, ruining their futures. I do not think it is fair to sacrifice the futures of some of the male students in order to make it easier for some others to be charged. It is not right, imo.

My father was a super liberal progressive and a defense attorney and civil rights advocate. One principle that he lived by was that he would rather see 10 guilty men go free in order to know that one innocent man would not be convicted. And he would be horrified if he saw how these rape 'tribunals' are being run. It surprises me how few here have any problems with it.

I'm curious how you've reached the conclusion that the men in your examples are innocent of the act for which they were accused. Wasn't one so wasted he had no recollection of the encounter? No recollection doesn't equate to innocence in my opinion.

I do believe anyone who drinks to the point of black-outs is responsible for ruining their own future. Such drunks are a huge liability for the school which does have the responsibility to protect other students.

 

[bluesneakers]

Hubby and I figured out the best way to handle it (although it was passive-aggressive, which I don't like to be). We sent him a formal invitation to get my mother off my back, then promptly followed it by sending a letter telling him he was disinvited, not to show his face (or I'd tell his sister, and he had another sister as well) and that the only reason he got an invitation was because of my mother. He was too chickened to show up, but sent me blood money- $50 Cash, which I knew was from him because of the zip code it was post-marked from. I didn't want his money, but wanted to penalized him, so my therapist came up with a great suggestion: I donated it to a women's charity for rape victims IN HIS NAME!!!

Hey, whatever it takes. I think the p/a move was brilliant, and that's a great suggestion from your therapist too.

 

[katydid23]

BBM

That bolded part, yes it is wrong. As I have said before there is a major difference between questioning their actions and blaming them. The only one to blame in the case of rape is the rapist. NOT the victim. That goes for you (sorry to get personal) as well when you were raped. You were NOT to blame. You made some stupid choices, unwise decisions, but you are not to blame. I feel as if you are (or have recently been) beating yourself up over this. It wasn't your fault.

MOO

I did make stupid choices and unwise decisions. So I do not mind accepting some of the blame. I am not beating myself up, imo. I am holding myself accountable. I went to Group Therapy and support groups for survivors of childhood abuse. For many years I attended those groups. Children are always victims, with no responsibility at all for the tragic outcomes. Nothing that I did as a child added to my situation. Absolutely.

But as a college student I should have some accountability. I don't want people to pat me on the back and say none of it was my fault. Because that is not true. And I would rather take responsibility than pretend it had nothing to do with my irresponsible and reckless behavior.

 

[LinasK]

WOW. That is EXACTLY how I have describe it before = 'the veil.' I used the exact same term. I was a newlywed and in my late 20's when I first told my mom. And she looked at me with compassion and tears welled up, then within a minute, she processed it all and the 'veil' came down over her eyes, and it is like she pushed it all down inside, and clammed up.

We never spoke of it again until years later. My mom brought it up last year, and she cried and was very upset and apologetic. She asked a lot of questions and we talked about it over a bottle of wine and homemade spaghetti. It was very healing.

:grouphug: I'm glad you got to have this conversation with your mother.
I never got to, but I made sure he was never alone with me ever again, even if defying family requests meant I got in trouble, and I never let him near my baby daughter. He died before my mother. I did send her and his adopted daughter condolence cards specifying it was their loss, i.e. Not mine! Like "sorry for your loss", but I boycotted both his wife's and his funeral. (They also tried to guilt-trip me by naming me a pall-bearer at his wife's funeral). Since my mom's been gone (he's buried not too far from her in the same cemetary), I've had the pleasure of stomping on his grave!

 

[Donjeta]

I don't know if I ever really gave consent or revoked consent. In my mind I was feeling regret and wishing I was not rolling around naked on the floor with that stranger. And by todays standard it would be 'rape' because I was intoxicated and I never affirmatively gave a clear consent. But in reality it would be unfair to charge the guy with rape. He was a young man who stumbled into his livingroom and found a half naked 'love child' on his floor, loading up his bong. I was going with the flow and giving him green lights. I did say ' Hey where's Johnny, why are you here?' several times. But not angrily or forcefully.

Which is why i have often argued that some sexual incidents are fraught with confusion and miscommunication. JMO

I think he sounds quite predatory and I would charge him with something anyway... If I find a half naked stranger in my house my response is, "who are you, what are you doing here, when are you going to leave?", not to slide in there and start having sex without even asking if it's OK.

So, you were both high and probably neither of you should have been. But as far as blame for the rape/not rape goes, it sounds to me like it's all on him. You didn't slide in and substitute for his girlfriend, ignoring his vocal protests about the substitution, and continue to sexually assault him assuming that being in your house is consent enough.

 

[katydid23]

I'm curious how you've reached the conclusion that the men in your examples are innocent of the act for which they were accused. Wasn't one so wasted he had no recollection of the encounter? No recollection doesn't equate to innocence in my opinion.

I do believe anyone who drinks to the point of black-outs is responsible for ruining their own future. Such drunks are a huge liability for the school which does have the responsibility to protect other students.

I am not sure which innocent men you are referring to , specifically. There are a few that I am thinking of. My son's best friend is one. His accuser admitted, when under her polygraph, that she lied because her boyfriend found out she had gone to his apartment. So she said it was rape.

The falsely accused in the various articles I linked were shown to be innocent in various ways. In a few instances the accusers recanted and confessed to lying. In another, there were texts and social media which proved she was lying.

The one who was drunk and had no memory of the woman assaulting him admits he was drunk. But there was no consensual sex. He went to that apartment to crash. She sexually assaulted him when he was asleep. The school needs to be protected from the female in that case, not the male. JMO

Oh, and by the way, the female that falsely accused him of rape, two years after she actually assaulted him, has had ZERO negative consequences as a result of her lies. Yet his life is still in ruins.

 

[Donjeta]

I have personally seen adults say to college girls " you can walk naked into a boy's room and lie down on his bed, and if he touches you, it is his fault, not yours.' That is what is being told to many college coeds. I have seen that same mantra here as well.

I think that when people say so it does not actually mean that they're telling the girls to do so necessarily. No one is saying, "you should go into a boy's room naked and lie on his bed".

Rather the message is that no means no even if you're in this situation, and consent for sex is required regardless of the place and lack of clothing or whatever.

It's not just a message for girls, it's an important message that the boys should hear too.

The point is that even if there is a naked person in your bed, you have no right to use them sexually unless you've ascertained that this is what the naked person wants too.

Rape is on the perp, not on the person who took off his or her clothes.

 

[Firefliezz21]

I think that when people say so it does not actually mean that they're telling the girls to do so necessarily. No one is saying, "you should go into a boy's room naked and lie on his bed".

Rather the message is that no means no even if you're in this situation, and consent for sex is required regardless of the place and lack of clothing or whatever.

It's not just a message for girls, it's an important message that the boys should hear too.

The point is that even if there is a naked person in your bed, you have no right to use them sexually unless you've ascertained that this is what the naked person wants too.

Rape is on the perp, not on the person who took off his or her clothes.

Bolded part: exactly!!! I've never seen or heard of any parent telling their daughters to walk into a boys room naked and lie on their bed as some sort of "bait."

The banners are both juvenile and crude. "Baby girl ready for a good time" "Freshman daughter drop-off" with an arrow pointing to the front door. It's a giant leap of logic to equate that with rape in my opinion.

 

[katydid23]

I think he sounds quite predatory and I would charge him with something anyway... If I find a half naked stranger in my house my response is, "who are you, what are you doing here, when are you going to leave?", not to slide in there and start having sex without even asking if it's OK.

So, you were both high and probably neither of you should have been. But as far as blame for the rape/not rape goes, it sounds to me like it's all on him. You didn't slide in and substitute for his girlfriend, ignoring his vocal protests about the substitution, and continue to sexually assault him assuming that being in your house is consent enough.

Nah. It was not like that though. He was in his room and his roomie comes home with a girl and they knock on his door and want him to bring out his weed and his bong. And he does that. He was cute. Much cuter than Johnny, the guy that I arrived with. So we all smoked and laughed and talked and I was flirting heavily with the roomie. I was half naked because Johhny and I had jumped into the pool with our clothes on so he gave me a big t-shirt to wear. That is all I had on.

As for my 'protests' of 'where's Johnny?' -- I was not really protesting because I wanted Johnny back. I liked the roomie better. I just wanted to know where Johnny was because it was awkward switching up like that. And I was also trying not to look like a total . I felt like I needed to at least acknowledge that i arrived with the other guy. I was actively making out and voluntarily doing some heavy petting on the living room shag carpet. As we past 3rd base and rounded for home, I did feel regret and felt like I was in over my head. But it was mostly because I LIKED THE GUY and wished I had made a better impression. So my protests were rather weak. I was trying to have it both ways.

There is no way in the world to pretend that I am not partially to blame for my having sex when I was not fully onboard. Calling him a predator and holding him 100% responsible is biased and unfair, imo.

He was a college student, at home minding his own business and suddenly a half naked girl is kissing him and playing with his manhood, while saying ' where's Johnny?' It must have been confusing but enjoyable for him. JMO

 

[jjenny]

So if a female is partly to blame (in the eyes of some) because she put herself in a situation where she could possibly be raped, isn't a male that does the same actions partly to blame when (if) he is accused of rape? If a male goes to a bar/party/whatever, gets drunk, meets a female he doesn't and/or barely knows, takes her to his place or goes back to hers, has sex with her.....isn't he partly responsible if she accuses him later of rape? Or does he get a pass because he is a male and can't control his urges? Shouldn't males be taught (along with females) to not have sex with someone that they are not in a committed relationship with? After all the risks far outweigh the benefits of it. There are possible STD's, unwanted pregnancies, being accused of rape, being expelled from college, prison time, etc. So if the males know that all of those are possible then why risk it? Is risky behavior ok for males but not for females?

You can blame the male for his bad choices all day long. But does it mean this male, if he hasn't raped anyone, should be expelled from the University or worse yet, charged with rape? People seem to feel free to blame the male. He drunk, he had sex with someone he barely knows, so it's his fault he is accused and expelled (even if he actually hasn't done what he is accused of).