GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #3

[blue22]

Daddy pushed their head too hard into the stainless steel refrigerator could be an accidental death, too.

That's not accidental, it's murder. The child died in the commission of an assault.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

An accidental death could be a smack that was harder than intended that led to a skull fracture. No death or permanent harm was intended, but it would still be some kind of manslaughter or child endangerment something.

First a smack to the head would not cause a skull fracture. Great force must be applied for that to happen. Any reasonable person would know striking the head with great force could cause great bodily injury or death.

But that still doesn't answer my original question of who has lost a child due to an accident and then discarded them like they were trash?

By accident I mean a true accident by legal definitions? Where LE/ME would rule the death of the child an accident?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

One of the biggest theories in the JonBenet case is that her parents or brother unintentionally killed her (w/ a blunt object) and then there was a coverup involving garrotte, strangulation, ransom note, etc to make it look like some intruder. So I am very confused as to why everyone is saying it never happens? Maybe it depends on how we are defining an accident. Plus, what about cases like Baby Sabrina or Baby Lisa? If you think the parents did it, do you think they planned to murder their baby, or that maybe it happened by accident/unintentionally, and then dumped the body, and pretended someone came into the house?

 

[blue22]

One of the biggest theories in the JonBenet case is that her parents or brother unintentionally killed her (w/ a blunt object) and then there was a coverup involving garrotte, strangulation, ransom note, etc to make it look like some intruder. So I am very confused as to why everyone is saying it never happens? Maybe it depends on how we are defining an accident. Plus, what about cases like Baby Sabrina or Baby Lisa? If you think the parents did it, do you think they planned to murder their baby, or that maybe it happened by accident/unintentionally, and then dumped the body, and pretended someone came into the house?

I think people are talking about a true accident. Not a child dying during an event of assault or abuse. For example, a parent not seeing a child in the driveway and reversing over them. A child who accidentally got hold of antifreeze while helping dad in the garage. A child who dies in their sleep, a child who chokes, etc. Of course, there are cases where a child dies from a parent's harm and they make it look like an abduction or murder. But, I don't recall a parent doing that when a child died from a true accident, that didn't involve a parent bringing any harm to the child.

 

[AnnaGrace]

For Noah


A Little Angel

Today it would be wonderful
To see you play and smile
But heaven lent you to this world
For just a little while
And in that short but precious time
You brought along much love
And all that love is with you now
In heaven up above.
Your leaving caused so many tears
And such a lot of pain
But God needed one more angel
So he took you back again.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

How many people who heard about this tragic story of Noah Thomas have checked their own septic systems without LE telling them to do so? LE didn't need to say a word as a reasonable adult would take finding a child in one as the warning. This especially applies to the surrounding neighbors and town of Noah Thomas.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I think people are talking about a true accident. Not a child dying during an event of assault or abuse. For example, a parent not seeing a child in the driveway and reversing over them. A child who accidentally got hold of antifreeze while helping dad in the garage. A child who dies in their sleep, a child who chokes, etc. Of course, there are cases where a child dies from a parent's harm and they make it look like an abduction or murder. But, I don't recall a parent doing that when a child died from a true accident, that didn't involve a parent bringing any harm to the child.

Okay, I understand. So basically, the difference between an incident where the parent would likely see some jailtime and one where they wouldn't, or would get neglect charges v. manslaughter/murder charges.

 

[blue22]

Okay, I understand. So basically, the difference between an incident where the parent would likely see some jailtime and one where they wouldn't, or would get neglect charges v. manslaughter/murder charges.

I think so. At least, that's my understanding of the conversations.

 

[RohrbachJL]

What I find fascinating is in all the years I have been here at WS I never heard of the theory that the child was killed accidentally and then the parent or parents hid the body. That seem to become a theory after the Anthony case.

I can think of at least one other case where a parent (or step-parent) may have hid a body. This is an old case, and was never solved. The boy allegedly never came home from school - also a kindergartner. Investigation showed he never actually made it to school or onto the bus that morning. Step-mom was the POI and was arrested, but released due to lack of evidence. The child's body was found on the family property, hidden in a camper, and it was his father who located him.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...s-Corner-5-March-1989&highlight=justin+turner

ETA: Because the case was never solved, no one knows if it was an accidental death made to look like kidnap and murder, or deliberately killed and made to look like a sexual predator was to blame. Lots of questions and absolutely no answers.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

One of the biggest theories in the JonBenet case is that her parents or brother unintentionally killed her (w/ a blunt object) and then there was a coverup involving garrotte, strangulation, ransom note, etc to make it look like some intruder. So I am very confused as to why everyone is saying it never happens? Maybe it depends on how we are defining an accident. Plus, what about cases like Baby Sabrina or Baby Lisa? If you think the parents did it, do you think they planned to murder their baby, or that maybe it happened by accident/unintentionally, and then dumped the body, and pretended someone came into the house?

JBR was murdered. Her body was found in her home. We are not talking about murder cases though. Of course murderers will hide the body of the child or children they have murdered.

Some are saying that even though a child genuinely accidentally dies (Verified through the ME as COD) parents will hide/discard the body of their child so that it wouldn't be found.

That is what I have never seen happen. I cant find one article to back that up either and never have. Every child case that I have seen where the body of the child was found discarded the MOD was homicide and never a COD of accidental.

That's the big difference imo. There is just no proof that parents hide bodies of children who had accidentally died.

 

[blue22]

I can think of at least one other case where a parent (or step-parent) may have hid a body. This is an old case, and was never solved. The boy allegedly never came home from school - also a kindergartner. Investigation showed he never actually made it to school or onto the bus that morning. Step-mom was the POI and was arrested, but released due to lack of evidence. The child's body was found on the family property, hidden in a camper, and it was his father who located him.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...s-Corner-5-March-1989&highlight=justin+turner

Strangulation is not an accident. He was murdered, not died accidentally and then hid.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Strangulation is not an accident. He was murdered, not died accidentally and then hid.

Thank you. I am glad you understand what I am saying.

We are not talking about murderers who discard and hid a child's body. Of course they have done that but the subject I was trying to convey is there isn't one bit of proof a parent discards/hides their child who has genuinely died from an accident. A COD found by the ME. It just doesn't happen. IMO

When bodies are hidden the reason for that is the person who put them there knows they are the sole cause of them being dead. So they hide to deceive that fact.

IMO

 

[blue22]

Thank you. I am glad you understand what I am saying.

We are not talking about murderers who discard and hid a child's body. Of course they have done that but the subject I was trying to convey is there isn't one bit of proof a parent discards/hides their child who has genuinely died from an accident. A COD found by the ME. It just doesn't happen. IMO

When bodies are hidden the reason for that is the person who put them there knows they are the sole cause of them being dead. So they hide to deceive that fact.

IMO

Exactly. Parents hiding bodies of children who died from abuse or neglect happens all the time. Even parents making it look like an abduction happens. But a parent hiding the body of a child who dies of an accident the parent is in no way complicit in...I have never heard of that.

 

[AnnaGrace]

I think we've all wracked our brains, wanting to believe this to be an accident, trying to ignore rumors, trying to read through LE's brief messages, wondering why no statement from the parents, etc. I think I'm going to have to back off for a little bit, if I can. From what I gather nothing else will be forthcoming until after the funeral services. I'll wait to see what happens then, but will be checking in periodically because I simply can't get Noah's death off my mind.

 

[matou]

Someone local and who was there on the scene at the septic would have let something slip by now and just claim it was an obvious accident or not. SMH on this one. If it was an obvious accident than warn the county about the potential dangers of septic tanks, etc. as people have already mentioned on here. This boy liked to ride his bike as seen in photos and there is a video of his bike that I've seen in recent reports, standing up in a corner somewhere outside. So what did he do outside? Play with his truck? Who saw him? He could have been easily seen from the road and anyone driving by would have seen him IMO. What time does Sunday church service begin and end for the locals on here? TIA

 

[JeannaT]

I think we've all wracked our brains, wanting to believe this to be an accident, trying to ignore rumors, trying to read through LE's brief messages, wondering why no statement from the parents, etc. I think I'm going to have to back off for a little bit, if I can. From what I gather nothing else will be forthcoming until after the funeral services. I'll wait to see what happens then, but will be checking in periodically because I simply can't get Noah's death off my mind.

I think nothing else will be forthcoming until the tox tests are returned, which is likely going to take weeks.

I agree. I think I'll back out of here until the autopsy is finally released in its complete form.

 

[Tillicum]

Slightly off topic to current discussion but I came across a picture taken from a different angle that gives a better indication where the tank is in relation to the house up front and the road. Assuming the blue tarp is where the tank is.

 

[RohrbachJL]

Strangulation is not an accident. He was murdered, not died accidentally and then hid.

Actually children do strangle themselves by accident. The item that strangled him was a thin material, similar to a dog leash, the autopsy showed. Dog hair was found clutched in his hand. A dog did live in the home and there were leashes in the home, as well. So hypothetically, he could have accidentally strangled himself with the dog leash. (I don't know the type or size of the dog in the home) Or he could have been murdered while holding onto the dog in terror. The dog hair got in his hand somehow. I do not mean to sound argumentative - just stating that accidental strangulation does happen to kids. I've read of a few happening while hanging from a bunk bed. So in my opinion, it is not a given that he was deliberately murdered. And apparently the Grand Jury didn't think so either, as they didn't find enough evidence to charge the step-mother.

 

[blue22]

Actually children do strangle themselves by accident. The item that strangled him was a thin material, similar to a dog leash, the autopsy showed. Dog hair was found clutched in his hand. A dog did live in the home and there were leashes in the home, as well. So hypothetically, he could have accidentally strangled himself with the dog leash. (I don't know the type or size of the dog in the home) Or he could have been murdered while holding onto the dog in terror. The dog hair got in his hand somehow. I do not mean to sound argumentative - just stating that accidental strangulation does happen to kids. I've read of a few happening while hanging from a bunk bed. So in my opinion, it is not a given that he was deliberately murdered. And apparently the Grand Jury didn't think so either, as they didn't find enough evidence to charge the step-mother.

Of course, accidental strangulation does happen. However, he was sexually assaulted and strangled and the cause of death was not accidental.

ETA: There was a case locally to me, where a parent found a child strangled in her closet. Her little sister told authorities they practice pullups there for a school fitness test. The mom was making dinner and came to get the daughter to eat. There were suspenders that she got tangled in and she died. THAT is the kind of accidental case people are talking about. A child that dies from no fault or neglect of another person and the parent hides their body. It doesn't happen, IMO

 

[vasportsmom]

Daddy pushed their head too hard into the stainless steel refrigerator could be an accidental death, too.

What?


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