GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #3

[NSS]

I am still stuck on a breakfast question.
Did the children eat breakfast before or after taking Dad to work? No mention in the timeline and stomach contents would help the ME determine time of death. (and he may know this by now)

Earliest reports say that Mum awoke at 10.30am, checked the premises and LE arrived at 11am. (They haven't released the 911 call- Can the media request that?)

None of the neighbors have mentioned her calling for him outside or knocking their doors to see if he was there.
Did Dad get called from work?
Was he informed by Mum or LE?
We have very little information, and lots of blanks. My brain thinks it's his job to fill in these blanks.......or it just runs through all possible scenarios until something fits in with the all (the little) information that it has.

 

[SStarr33]

Isn't he adorable. Maybe because I am a natural redhead, and had that same color as a child, I just felt so touched by what has happened to this sweet child. My mind can't comprehend someone hurting him.

Seriously one of the cutest kids I've ever seen.

 

[blue22]

How many cases do you know of parents that were sleeping and their kids disappeared from their own closed house'

There have certainly been a few where there was a home invasion while family was sleeping at night and a child taken by someone. I don't recall any case of a parent returning to sleep during waking hours, a young child left to tend to themselves for hours, and a parent waking up to the child gone, and then found deceased.

I could be totally wrong, this case just seems very unique to me. Perhaps, someone has been following stories like these longer and can't find one similar.

 

[kshultz06082]

This reply is not aimed specifically at you, so please do not be offended. I am just using your post as an example of many others (hope that is ok!)

I think it may be difficult for people who have never lived in a small town, never lived in a rural area, or never lived near or among lower income families (or been lower income themselves) to understand some of the specific things seen and heard and read in this investigation.

Dublin is a town of (as of 2013) 2,493 people. There are a couple of hundred US high schools with more students than that. The housing development I live in that borders a rural area has more than 1400 homes in it alone. Dublin is a *small town*. Pulaski County crime statistics show their crime rates to be the low end of average.

The house Noah lived in was a mobile home. It sat behind another house, off the main road, down the hill. While that road is pretty well traveled according to news articles (it is a popular short cut for locals between two other major road ways), it is local traffic. People who live in that community mainly.

There are lots of people who let their kids play in the yard. They leave their toys laying out. They don't lock bikes up. Whether they can't be bothered, don't think it is necessary, or just never thought about it - for whatever reason, having stuff laying out in your yard is not uncommon in many rural/residential areas.

This is not meant to disparage anyone who lives near Noah's family (or any other rural community!) but look at the news footage. Cruise some of the video links and image galleries. There is a lot of "stuff" sitting out and around the home (and the neighbors). It is just how many people live.

The home he lived in had no carport or garage. It looks like there was at least one shed on the property but we don't know if it was theirs or belonged to the white house in front. But where else would he store his toys? Lock his bike up?

The home he lived in is an older model mobile home. I read a comment somewhere that said, "I wouldn't go for a nap upstairs while my kid played in the living room." There is no upstairs. There isn't much room to the home at all and probably very little soundproofing. Each person can form their own opinions from this, but when you live in a mobile home, you don't really have room to distance yourself from anyone else in the home. You can pretty much hear what is going on anywhere else in the home.

It was mentioned on Nancy Grace (please, seriously, forgive me referencing Nancy Grace!!!) that Noah's mother worked "late" or worked nights. That is why she was so tired during the day. They must have only one working vehicle, that's why they had to get up, go drop his father at work and come home. It appears that this family was working hard to make ends meet. It is really difficult to fathom when you have never been in that position. It easy to dismiss another adult's poor judgments when you have never been forced to make the same decision yourself. There are a lot of people in the U.S. who barely scrape by, paycheck to paycheck. They have kids, too.

Chronic sleep deprivation and daytime somolence is a significant factor in major industrial accidents & a common cause of vehicle accidents. It leads to anxiety, depression, brain fog, forgetfulness, and health problems. At some point, our bodies DO just shut down.

But when there is rent to pay and bills are due and the kids need to be fed, many parents do what they feel they have to do. Many parents work opposing shifts from each other to save on childcare costs. If you are working a low paying, hourly job, child care costs can easily eat up or even exceed your paycheck.

I am not necessarily defending Ashley White. But it seems to me, based on a number of questions and comments, that many people don't really understand the kind of stress factors that lower income families face. Nor do many people have a grasp on what the lifestyle is like in rural, small towns in America.

Take it as you will and draw your own opinions from it. This is just my contribution to helping people better understand potential circumstances in the case.

Thanks is not enough! This is what I have been thinking through this entire thread!

 

[blue22]

Seriously one of the cutest kids I've ever seen.

He seems like he could make anyone laugh. He just had one of those faces you couldn't help but smile at. It's so enormously sad.

 

[gitana1]

Accidents do happen.. But she was asleep for up to 3 hours while her child possibly wandered off and died, if that's the case.

And I absolutely do think that if you asked her if going to sleep for those 3 hours was a mistake, she would say yes.

I fiercely believe that she deserves empathy. But I'm not going to say that she didn't make a mistake that led to her child dying.


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Would you blame her and call it a "mistake", if totally exhausted from caring for a baby and working several jobs, she slept later than usual one morning and Noah slipped out in the morning and had an accident? I don't see much of a difference.

By the way, there is a huge difference between "negligence" which I saw in your first post and a "mistake". We all make mistakes. Even in parenting. Mistakes can be defended. Negligence, not so much. An example of negligence would be leaving a child outside in the hot car while you go into a hotel room to do a bunch of speed.

I'm sorry but most people aren't perfect parents. An overworked, exhausted mother of an infant who takes a nap while her 5 year old watches cartoons in the same house is not negligent and did'nt even make a mistake. She's just trying to survive for goodness sake.

Of course I don't know what happened here. My comments are under the assumption that what has been reported is the truth.

 

[matou]

Did the family have anyone to babysit? Did people in the town know them?

 

[YidArmyRach]

Sadly, that is NOT a fact. She could have been within feet of Noah and he could have crashed down into the septic tank. Without having a way to get to him immediately, the outcome would most likely have been the same.

Case in point, the 2 year old that died today with his mother there. They could not save him.

Not to argue, but respectfully disagree.

IF the lid of the tank was shut, as so far we are led to believe, then if Noah had been outside with his mum, I don't think he would have ended up in the septic tank. The time it would have taken him to remove the lid, his mum would have noticed and stopped him. There has been nothing, so far, to indicate he crashed through the lid, and fell into the tank. So, far the only thing LE have said is that they removed the lid and drained the tank.

With the case at the garage, the mum was washing the car, and not supervising her child. It appears he wandered off and fell into a tank containing grease at a different part of the garage.

In my opinion, and its horrible to say, both these little boys died due to inadequate supervision. That is not to say I'm a perfect parent, but looking at these from the outside, sadly hindsight is a terrible thing, but I believe both incidents were preventable.

 

[SStarr33]

He seems like he could make anyone laugh. He just had one of those faces you couldn't help but smile at. It's so enormously sad.

Very sad

His nickname was Chunk which I think fits him perfectly. He looks like he was all boy all the time.

 

[blue22]

Would you blame her and call it a "mistake", if totally exhausted from caring for a baby and working several jobs, she slept later than usual one morning and Noah slipped out in the morning and had an accident? I don't see much of a difference.

By the way, there is a huge difference between "negligence" which I saw in your first post and a "mistake". We all make mistakes. Even in parenting. Mistakes can be defended. Negligence, not so much. An example of negligence would be leaving a child outside in the hot car while you go into a hotel room to do a bunch of speed.

I'm sorry but most people aren't perfect parents. An overworked, exhausted mother of an infant who takes a nap while her 5 year old watches cartoons in the same house is not negligent and did'nt even make a mistake. She's just trying to survive for goodness sake.

Of course I don't know what happened here. My comments are under the assumption that what has been reported is the truth.

No. She did not. She was up and went BACK to sleep and left her child to tend to himself for hours. That is a different than sleeping late one morning. Very different.

And I'm certainly not claiming to be a perfect parent, but no...I would not do this. Parents have the right to make mistakes, of course. But we should not be given so much leeway that we have the right to make some mistakes.

 

[vasportsmom]

He seems like he could make anyone laugh. He just had one of those faces you couldn't help but smile at. It's so enormously sad.

There is a fairly popular mommy/lifestyle blogger that recently adopted a child from China. When they first got A she would purse her lips to avoid smiling and the result was that same adorable look that Noah had. A has the biggest smile now but I think I will always think of Noah every time that I see pics of A.


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[lonetraveler]

So the word is that the septic lid was partially open now? And this was missed by several searches by dif people. Wow. Jmo

That was in the West Virginia case, Matou.

 

[hockeymom4]

Sadly, that is NOT a fact. She could have been within feet of Noah and he could have crashed down into the septic tank. Without having a way to get to him immediately, the outcome would most likely have been the same.

Case in point, the 2 year old that died today with his mother there. They could not save him.

But the boy's mother wasn't with him today when it happen. Literally with him. Didn't he wonder off? That is the point with both of these examples, unsupervised children.

 

[winterrose]

Messages on FB from aunt and uncle: https://www.facebook.com/SaveTheNextGirl?fref=nf

I will have to wade through pages and pages, but will find the other references. One man was wearing a black decorated vest (someone thought he might be a veteran) spoke at one vigil and the article said he was a friend of the family. He gave a short message from them.

Oh I know who they're talking about, he was at the balloon release, thanked everyone for coming trying to keep from crying. That was so sad, believe that was a veteran's vest.

 

[gitana1]

How many cases do you know of parents that were sleeping and their kids disappeared from their own closed house'

Not many. But there have been some. A few years back, a little boy in Arizona, two years old, wandered out of his house as his mom slept, wandered in the heat and died.

 

[lonetraveler]

Isn't he adorable. Maybe because I am a natural redhead, and had that same color as a child, I just felt so touched by what has happened to this sweet child. My mind can't comprehend someone hurting him.

I'm with you. I'm a redhead and my oldest daughter is also a redhead. This one hits close to home for me.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

But the boy's mother wasn't with him today when it happen. Literally with him. Didn't he wonder off? That is the point with both of these examples, unsupervised children.

True, she must have taken her eyes off him for a minute. However, my point is both mothers could have watched the kids drop out of sight down into the tanks and recovery would have still been iffy for a good outcome.

 

[blue22]

Messages on FB from aunt and uncle: https://www.facebook.com/SaveTheNextGirl?fref=nf

I will have to wade through pages and pages, but will find the other references. One man was wearing a black decorated vest (someone thought he might be a veteran) spoke at one vigil and the article said he was a friend of the family. He gave a short message from them.

The aunt has spoken more than once with messages included from the family.

People have not given this family a break from Day 1 and their relatives have spoken on their behalf, but people have ignored it. I guess some only hear what they want to hear.

There have been quite a few appearances by family. There was another with both the aunt and uncle.

I don't know what happened in Noah's case, and I am not fully convinced one direction. But...if I lost a kid, I wouldn't give a crap about the public and I wouldn't want to leave or speak to anyone. (I imagine. Who can really predict these things.) Perhaps, it's odd given the media and parents typically make pleas...but I really don't think I would. I don't think I COULD.

 

[JeannaT]

How many cases do you know of parents that were sleeping and their kids disappeared from their own closed house'

I can think of a lot. A case where a mom was sleeping off a hangover on the couch and her 4 year old left the trailer and drowned in a pond near the home. A case north of San Antonio Texas where parents slept in until about noon and their 3 year old was playing in the backyard and was mauled to death by the family pit bull, to be discovered hours later when the parents finally awoke. That little girl recently who got on a bus to go get a slushie in the middle of the night.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I respectfully disagree. I, too, wondered if the parents would attend or not and I'm no FB troll. Like myself, I believe a lot of people are surprised that the parents have not spoken with the media, have not spoken at any kind of presser [prior to his little body being found] to plead for anyone with info about his whereabouts to come forth/for anyone who may have seen anything to come forth. In my experience, this is the very first case I've followed, of a missing/then sadly found deceased child, in which we've seen no hide nor hair from the parents. To many this is unusual and unexpected, and naturally leads to all kinds of speculations. It's human nature to wonder.

I have come to understand more and more why parents are reluctant to speak out in the media. And speaking out wouldn't accomplish anything anyway. I can only remember one case ever where the pleas of a parent got their child returned home alive. I believe that case was in Canada iirc. Most children who go missing wind up being murdered in less than 3 hours after they have been missing. Everyone knew Noah was missing and LE had to turn away some because so many offered to search. So the parents knew everyone was looking for Noah.

Even Jessica Ridgeways mother did not speak to the press until five days later. She was a very shy woman imo and it was hard for the camera to be in her face and have to talk about her beautiful murdered daughter knowing the whole country was listening. And even then after speaking out that one time she was accused of having crocodile tears. In fact I don't know of one case where the parents were supported by the internet masses. Not one. And in those cases people wanted the parent or parents to speak out only because they were convinced they were already guilty of harming their child. And after they did finally speak then they were more convinced than ever they were guilty as sin even though in the end many of them were not. The majority of internet commenters seem to find fault with everything they did from 'they looked guilty' 'they showed no emotion' 'they looked down while talking' 'they cried fake tears' 'they didn't cry enough' 'they were hiding something', etc. If these parents had spoken out they wouldn't have been spared either nor believed. IMO

So I think there will be less and less parents willing to speak with the press in the future. Not because of the press but because of the non-stop 24/7 social media sites that makes thousands of negative comments about them....starting immediately and never letting up. That is why FB is known to be filled with hate filled trolls. Thank goodness here there is respect and dignity and rules to follow. When there are no rules in play the worst imaginable things are said without accountability.

And what is sad is it is people who don't even know the parents personally whatsoever that seem the most judgmental imo. Usually the people that know the parents very well and live in the same town are very supportive and they do it by actions rather than comments.

Mark Lunsford told Nancy Grace one time that losing his daughter was the most hurtful thing he had to endure but the second most hurtful thing was reading what people were saying about him and his parents on the internet who didn't even know any of them.

I remember how Marlene Lamar was torn to shreds by the internet naysayers when she continued to speak out about her daughter. The accusations were horrible and absolutely not true. She was even accused as being in cahoots with her boyfriend of harming Sierra. Its very sad to see things like this happen over and over again when so many parents needed total support when they were in this situation.

People are individuals. I can understand if the parents are too emotional to speak or are timid and scared that their words will be twisted into meaning something they didn't say. Not everyone is cutout to talk in front of the media.

Not talking with the press doesn't show me that either of them are guilty.