GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #3

[hockeymom4]

But we are talking about a criminal case vs. an accidental death and charges being brought. This means we are discussing the legal terms of neglect/negligence.

I disagree. Every statement said on WS isn't to be taken in the legal sense. For starters, every state has different laws and different charges can be filed. Getting down to basics...we are basic people using basic thoughts. Also, there is no criminal case against anyone. We are talking about what happen in a home and at a car wash and also general terms. As far as I know, no charges and no legal terms have been thrown out by LE. One of the statement was made as a general term that any lack of attention is not neglectful. That is one example that had nothing to do with Noah, but instead a general term.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I'd rather feel the way I do and have a living child, than to technically have the law on my side and a dead child.


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No amount of helicopter parenting can guarantee a child's safety. Accidents happen. It doesn't matter if you are staring right at them, things can happen. Life is full of risks and every house is full of dangers inside and out. We all want to protect our children and we all want to believe the way we raise them is the best and so much better than anyone else could because we love them so dearly. The truth is accidents happen and we can lose them in the blink of an eye.

I believe it is wrong for us to judge this poor woman so harshly at this time. She buried her son today. She will never see his smile again nor hear his voice. She will forever be haunted by her dead child. I feel so sorry for her and his father. His whole family must be heartbroken and devastated tonight.

 

[vasportsmom]

I'd rather feel the way I do and have a living child, than to technically have the law on my side and a dead child.


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Me too! I'll take helicopter parent over free range parent any day.


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[JeannaT]

Me too! I'll take helicopter parent over free range parent any day.


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I hate to veer off too far from topic, but it seems after a generation of helicopter parenting, the pendulum of thought is turning the other way.

I was reading an article a couple days ago about letting your children take their own risks, ride their bicycles to friend's houses, explore in the woods behind the house, etc. The way kids, until this past generation, have always been raised.

And there was a quote from someone on the Austin School Board - about get out of your kid's classroom. This is your kid's work, your kid's homework, your kid's friends, your kids have to find their way and learn to manage their lives for themselves. Quit checking their homework assignments and grades online every day. Quit micromanaging their friendships with classmates. Quit walking your 4th grader to the bus stop 5 houses down.

It's a compelling point, to me. Seeing how this last generation has such trouble doing for themselves and how so many are living with mom and dad still in their late 20's.

There is a saying - your kid's lives will be made much easier not by what you do for them, but by what you make them learn to do for themselves. So true.

Anyway, I'm not trying to start an argument, just musing. I think kids do better in general - as a whole population - when allowed to have to take care of themselves sometimes. Statistically abduction by strangers reached a peak in the 60's and is extremely, extremely rare.

 

[blefuscu]

Accidents do happen.. But she was asleep for up to 3 hours while her child possibly wandered off and died, if that's the case.

And I absolutely do think that if you asked her if going to sleep for those 3 hours was a mistake, she would say yes.

I fiercely believe that she deserves empathy. But I'm not going to say that she didn't make a mistake that led to her child dying.


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What if she didn't even mean to go to sleep? What if she went to put the baby down for a nap and accidentally fell asleep because she was tired? And then she woke up later and found Noah gone?

People are presuming the mother decided to sleep for 3 hours. None of us know that's the case. I'm sure this mother is feeling completely bereft at the moment. It could have just been a terrible thing that happened. And she has to live with that if that's the case.

 

[JeannaT]

What if she didn't even mean to go to sleep? What if she went to put the baby down for a nap and accidentally fell asleep because she was tired? And then she woke up later and found Noah gone?

People are presuming the mother decided to sleep for 3 hours. None of us know that's the case. I'm sure this mother is feeling completely bereft at the moment. It could have just been a terrible thing that happened. And she has to live with that if that's the case.

We don't know the baby was asleep either - and the baby is 8-9 months old, so would be in a crib. A mother putting the baby down for a nap (at 8 a.m.? I don't think so) wouldn't fall asleep herself accidentally. I'm not trying to heap blame on the mother - I firmly believe this could have happened in a 3 minute time span while Mom was in the bathroom - but it doesn't seem she accidentally fell asleep for 2.5 hours.

 

[courtneyb]

My kids are allowed to be independent, with supervision. It's not accurate nor fair to label my parenting style, just because I said I don't sleep for hours and leave my kids to fend for themselves. My children are all straight a students, active in sports and remember the name Maicie Broussard when you watch the 2020 summer Olympic gymnastics team. . I think my kids will do ok in life. And if one parent thinks twice about lying down for a 3 hour nap and one kid loves because of it, because of what happened to Noah, then good.


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[gitana1]

I have come to understand more and more why parents are reluctant to speak out in the media. And speaking out wouldn't accomplish anything anyway. I can only remember one case ever where the pleas of a parent got their child returned home alive. I believe that case was in Canada iirc. Most children who go missing wind up being murdered in less than 3 hours after they have been missing. Everyone knew Noah was missing and LE had to turn away some because so many offered to search. So the parents knew everyone was looking for Noah.

Even Jessica Ridgeways mother did not speak to the press until five days later. She was a very shy woman imo and it was hard for the camera to be in her face and have to talk about her beautiful murdered daughter knowing the whole country was listening. And even then after speaking out that one time she was accused of having crocodile tears. In fact I don't know of one case where the parents were supported by the internet masses. Not one. And in those cases people wanted the parent or parents to speak out only because they were convinced they were already guilty of harming their child. And after they did finally speak then they were more convinced than ever they were guilty as sin even though in the end many of them were not. The majority of internet commenters seem to find fault with everything they did from 'they looked guilty' 'they showed no emotion' 'they looked down while talking' 'they cried fake tears' 'they didn't cry enough' 'they were hiding something', etc. If these parents had spoken out they wouldn't have been spared either nor believed. IMO

So I think there will be less and less parents willing to speak with the press in the future. Not because of the press but because of the non-stop 24/7 social media sites that makes thousands of negative comments about them....starting immediately and never letting up. That is why FB is known to be filled with hate filled trolls. Thank goodness here there is respect and dignity and rules to follow. When there are no rules in play the worst imaginable things are said without accountability.

And what is sad is it is people who don't even know the parents personally whatsoever that seem the most judgmental imo. Usually the people that know the parents very well and live in the same town are very supportive and they do it by actions rather than comments.

Mark Lunsford told Nancy Grace one time that losing his daughter was the most hurtful thing he had to endure but the second most hurtful thing was reading what people were saying about him and his parents on the internet who didn't even know any of them.

I remember how Marlene Lamar was torn to shreds by the internet naysayers when she continued to speak out about her daughter. The accusations were horrible and absolutely not true. She was even accused as being in cahoots with her boyfriend of harming Sierra. Its very sad to see things like this happen over and over again when so many parents needed total support when they were in this situation.

People are individuals. I can understand if the parents are too emotional to speak or are timid and scared that their words will be twisted into meaning something they didn't say. Not everyone is cutout to talk in front of the media.

Not talking with the press doesn't show me that either of them are guilty.

Also Elizabeth Smart's father (man was he skewered and accused!), Somer Thompson's mother, Breann Rodriguez's dad, etc., etc..

I keep trying to understand the dynamic going on here but I am, admittedly, struggling. I think it may come down to the fact that we see so many cases of children that are horribly beaten, sexually abused or forced to live in unimaginable conditions that it makes it easier to justify or overlook "a little neglect".


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You know, the fact that the police stated that a "hard, credible tip" led them to the child, raises alarm bells to me. Seems like something else may be going on. But in the absence of any information to the contrary, we are left with the assumption that the facts as stated are true, and operating under the assumption that this is purely a case where the mom fell asleep and the child wandered off and died, then I can explain the dynamic here. That dynamic is that some of us are willing to admit we are not perfect. Some of us are willing to admit that bad things can happen to good parents. Some of us are unwilling to accept, despite the risk otherwise, that children must be totally bubble wrapped and observed at every moment, no matter the age or circumstances, or we are "neglecting" our kids or being "negligent".

And some of us can put ourselves in the shoes of a worn out, exhausted, low income mother of a kindergartner and an infant, who works late, who took a fateful nap with her baby, while her 5 year old child, who is not known to wander, sat watching cartoons.

I call that empathy.

Agreed, not all neglected children are starved or beaten regularly.

Not only would this conduct NOT be criminal negligence, as I cited and explained above, it would not even be considered child neglect, BTW (a totally separate charge). Napping while your kindergartner watches tv in the same house would not be chargeable as child neglect whether or not he wandered off and died:

§ 16.1-228. Definitions.
When used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:
"Abused or neglected child" means any child:
1. Whose parents or other person responsible for his care creates or inflicts, threatens to create or inflict, or allows to be created or inflicted upon such child a physical or mental injury by other than accidental means, or creates a substantial risk of death, disfigurement or impairment of bodily or mental functions, including, but not limited to, a child who is with his parent or other person responsible for his care either (i) during the manufacture or attempted manufacture of a Schedule I or II controlled substance, or (ii) during the unlawful sale of such substance by that child's parents or other person responsible for his care, where such manufacture, or attempted manufacture or unlawful sale would constitute a felony violation of § 18.2-248;
2. Whose parents or other person responsible for his care neglects or refuses to provide care necessary for his health; however, no child who in good faith is under treatment solely by spiritual means through prayer in accordance with the tenets and practices of a recognized church or religious denomination shall for that reason alone be considered to be an abused or neglected child;
3. Whose parents or other person responsible for his care abandons such child;
4. Whose parents or other person responsible for his care commits or allows to be committed any sexual act upon a child in violation of the law;
5. Who is without parental care or guardianship caused by the unreasonable absence or the mental or physical incapacity of the child's parent, guardian, legal custodian, or other person standing in loco parentis; or
6. Whose parents or other person responsible for his care creates a substantial risk of physical or mental injury by knowingly leaving the child alone in the same dwelling, including an apartment as defined in § 55-79.2, with a person to whom the child is not related by blood or marriage and who the parent or other person responsible for his care knows has been convicted of an offense against a minor for which registration is required as a violent sexual offender pursuant to § 9.1-902. https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+16.1-228

§ 18.2-371.1. Abuse and neglect of children; penalty; abandoned infant.
A. Any parent, guardian, or other person responsible for the care of a child under the age of 18 who by willful act or omission or refusal to provide any necessary care for the child's health causes or permits serious injury to the life or health of such child shall be guilty of a Class 4 felony. For purposes of this subsection, "serious injury" shall include but not be limited to (i) disfigurement, (ii) a fracture, (iii) a severe burn or laceration, (iv) mutilation, (v) maiming, (vi) forced ingestion of dangerous substances, or (vii) life-threatening internal injuries.
B. 1. Any parent, guardian, or other person responsible for the care of a child under the age of 18 whose willful act or omission in the care of such child was so gross, wanton and culpable as to show a reckless disregard for human life shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-371.1
(Emphasis by me).

"Willful" generally means an act done with a bad purpose, without justifiable excuse, or without ground for believing it is lawful. The term denotes "'an act which is intentional, or knowing, or voluntary, as distinguished from accidental.'" The terms "bad purpose" or "without justifiable excuse," while facially unspecific, necessarily
imply knowledge that particular conduct will likely result in injury or illegality.
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/0148982.txt (Emphasis by me).

Oh and the case that I quoted above for the definition of willful involved the appeal of a conviction for child neglect of a mother who left her almost five year old and 27 month old alone, who were napping, in an apartment, for up to half an hour while she went and socialized with a friend in the complex, after accidentally leaving a burner on that she had used to light a cigarette. A fire started and her kids suffered serious injury.

She won her appeal.

 

[DeeMarie]

Any lack of attention on the part of a parent that leads to their child's death, is negligent. And a mistake. We are not talking about a scraped knee here. So, let's just disagree.

And, she DID survive. Her 5 year old son did not.

Agreed-negligent for sure if not more..

3 hours of sleeping while a 5 year old is left alone.

She also left her infant daughter alone when she slept.

So it was two children she put at risk.

It was not a cat nap for 1 hour, she didn't sleep on the couch with one eye open so she could watch Noah as he watched cartoons, she slept for 3 hours.

If she was that tired she should not have been driving a car to get her husband to work.

She could have slept on the couch and watched Noah or barricade Noah in the bedroom with her so he could not get out while she was sleeping - etc..

I have a son that I raised without any help. I had no family/babysitter/friends to get breaks or rest.

I remember being so tired I would cry - BUT - the fear of something happening to my son if I closed my eyes far outweighed my need to sleep.

So I am sorry if I don't understand why Noah's mothers decision to sleep for 3 hours that put two vulnerable, beautiful children at risk--and resulting in the death of Noah -- was just an 'accident'.

 

[mpnola]

Jassiah Clark was 4. He was unsupervised and fell into a well. His mom was charged with negligent homicide. Not supervising your kids (especially when it results in harm or death) is a crime. I am not debating the sleep vs. do not sleep issue. I just know that as a parent, you are responsible for your children. If you are driving, run a red light UNINTENTIONALLY, hit another car and kill them, it is negligent homicide. Harm coming from an accident does not excuse the negligent party. It just doesn't. His case is a quick little read. :

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Jassiah-Clark-4-Baton-Rouge-20-December-2014

 

[JeannaT]

My kids are allowed to be independent, with supervision. It's not accurate nor fair to label my parenting style, just because I said I don't sleep for hours and leave my kids to fend for themselves. My children are all straight a students, active in sports and remember the name Maicie Broussard when you watch the 2020 summer Olympic gymnastics. . I think my kids will do ok in life. And if one parent thinks twice about lying down for a 3 hour nap and one kid loves because orbit, then good.


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I really did mean it when I said I wasn't trying to argue, just musing.

I guess I don't even understand what the term "independent with supervision" means because those seem to be opposites to me - "independent" means you have to figure this out for yourself because no one will help you. Like, you are now lost and have to find your way back home.

I certainly NEVER napped when I had kids - although I was so tired I couldn't do simple math. So I get that - and am kind of jealous of moms who took showers and napped when they were supervising their kids. My kid's natures wouldn't allow me to do that - something would go terribly wrong if they knew I was otherwise occupied.

I don't know what "one kid loves because orbit" means - but my guess is it's an autocorrect gone bad. ;D

Best wishes to your daughter in her gymnastics.

 

[gitana1]

Screaming? Just because people disagree with an opinion doesn't mean they are "screaming"...:facepalm:

I never said that mere disagreement equates to screaming. See below.

I'm not sure she's talking about posters on Websleuths - I've certainly seen some of the most vicious posts I've ever read on SM, and I certainly would call them screaming.

Exactly.

 

[cluciano63]

I wonder if they lifted the lid to look inside because the opposite was true - it DID look like he could get in? I wonder of they didn't know much about septic tanks and assumed it was a couple feet deep, and not seeing him, they thought he couldn't be in there?

LE in a rural area should have more awareness of septic tanks than other LE, one might think. They might have them at their homes, or some of them probably do. Jmo

 

[lonetraveler]

So if they removed the lid and looked inside...then it seems to me that the position of the lid did not lead them to believe that he may have opened it or that it was left open? That they were just kind of checking in a "better safe than sorry" way. At least that is how it sounds to me. I guess I can't quite believe that if lid had been off, or askew, that they wouldn't have drained it right then.

Maybe I need clarity here but I'm under the impression that LE did not open the lid of the septic tank prior to getting the hard and credible lead. I do understand that they searched multiple times in the home and around the home but I have not seen any thing suggesting that they opened the lid during those multiple searches. Stating that they searched the area multiple times does not mean that they opened the lid until they received the lead. Correct me with the statement if I'm wrong.

 

[JeannaT]

Maybe I need clarity here but I'm under the impression that LE did not open the lid of the septic tank prior to getting the hard and credible lead. I do understand that they searched multiple times in the home and around the home but I have not seen any thing suggesting that they opened the lid during those multiple searches. Stating that they searched the area multiple times does not mean that they opened the lid until they received the lead. Correct me with the statement if I'm wrong.

My understanding - could be wrong - is that they had already lifted the lid and "eyeballed it" before replacing the lid back down and continuing their search. I could be wrong.

 

[ANonyMs]

Oh - are we counting kids who were kidnapped from their homes while their parents slept? I thought the list was kids who chose to wander away while their parents napped or slept. But wait - DVD's parents were at home, awake in the basement.

I have lost track of the list(s) at this point :dunno:

As for DVD...eh, garage, not basement. And her father was asleep at home before her mother and friends came home. The point was that she disappeared from the home with a parent present. They were not found "negligent" despite Westerfield's defense atty using their negligence as a part of his defense.

(I may be a little sensitive about that case. We lived in the same neighborhood and participated in the search for her.)

 

[WillenFan21]

Was Noah found naked? Look at this, part of the article that I took from here: http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/sanitation-technician-describes-discovery-of-noah-thomas/32052894. This man was the one who drained the tank and was there when they found the body.

"And we pulled the lid off the tank and started pumping, and that's when we seen the little boy down there,” Abate said. “I'm just going to say when we started pumping and got half way down the tank, bout halfway down in the tank, and that's when I seen the little, I seen clothes. That's pretty much all I'm going to say."

 

[epiphany]

How many cases do you know of parents that were sleeping and their kids disappeared from their own closed house'

Jessica Lunsford: Grandmother sleeping

Elizabeth Smart: Parents sleeping

Polly Klaas: Father in another room...not sure if sleeping, but in home, though not in daughter's bedroom


Prob more

 

[matou]

So no one noticed little Noah playing outside on Sunday? People driving by on their way to church or to Sunday school, etc. Locals in small towns usually notice people who are outside as they drive by, beep their horn to acknowledge friends, etc. But I have not read one comment from anyone who said they saw little Noah playing outside that morning. Either he was swallowed up by the septic right away or ?????? JMO

 

[lonetraveler]

My understanding - could be wrong - is that they had already lifted the lid and "eyeballed it" before replacing the lid back down and continuing their search. I could be wrong.

And my understanding is that after receiving the lead, LE opened the septic tank, looked inside, closed the lid back and called the septic tank man to come and drain the tank.