GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #4

[Bayou Mistress]

Narcissism is a personality disorder. Personality disorders, at this time, have no treatment, no meds to help. Life experiences may influence how badly your disorder affects you. But a true medical diagnosis of a personality disorder is something with which you are born. RN '87

While I think there may be a genetic component for personality disorders, I'm also pretty certain that circumstances (childhood trauma, abuse) play a tremendous part. In other words, some may be born with it...the rest used maybelline

 

[JeannaT]

What we do know is that 2 adults are in jail right now for the abuse and neglect of 2 very young children. One of those children are dead. All of the other details are just details. The facts remain the same. They are in jail. Their son is dead. Not hurt. Not being ignored or mildly mistreated. He's dead at 5 years young. Poor little.

And that may be enough for some on the board - all the rest is in the details. But for many of us - myself included - that leaves more questions unanswered than it answers.

I for one wonder why they didn't wait for the autopsy to be complete before charging them. EITHER, they were neglectful and unwatchful and did drugs and had an unsafe home and as a result this child has died of a tragic accident while being unsupervised, or one or both of them killed him and put him in the septic tank. And the way I see it, those two scenarios aren't even closely related. They are as far apart as night and day.

And the second scenario would also include charges of murder or manslaughter, obstructing evidence, calling in a false police report, etc., which are not present.

 

[JeannaT]

I'd like a link to proof of that. Most of what I read, they believe narcissists are created. While I'm certain people are born with certain qualities that make them more susceptible to becoming a narcissist, I find it hard to believe anybody is born with it. I've dealt with narcissists throughout my life. Being a scapegoat child sort of turned me into a magnet for them. I've never seen clear cut evidence that anyone is born a narcissist. But, I am always willing to learn more about it.

Interesting - I JUST read something last week I think it was on CNN that narcissists are created not born.

I'm a huge believer that nature is responsible for about 95% of what we are and become and about 5% is lace on the edges that comes from our nurture. So I'm skeptical. But it was an interesting read.

 

[blue22]

I'd like a link to proof of that. Most of what I read, they believe narcissists are created. While I'm certain people are born with certain qualities that make them more susceptible to becoming a narcissist, I find it hard to believe anybody is born with it. I've dealt with narcissists throughout my life. Being a scapegoat child sort of turned me into a magnet for them. I've never seen clear cut evidence that anyone is born a narcissist. But, I am always willing to learn more about it.

My sister was born one. I mean that. She was not raised in such a way to create one. She did things as a toddler that were narcissistic. She has always been that way. Just because YOU have not met someone that you think was born that way, does not mean they aren't out there. Plenty of us know people.

 

[Ronso]

While I think there may be a genetic component for personality disorders, I'm also pretty certain that circumstances (childhood trauma, abuse) play a tremendous part. In other words, some may be born with it...the rest used maybelline

I agree here. I think the conditions are just right.... maybe they are born with it... but it's the details that affect the outcome, if that makes sense.

You can't believe stories about a narcissist's childhood anyways. They tend to tell beautiful stories. Replace people in them. Hell my ex-narc friend replaced me with another friend of his when talking about OUR story of meeting and me getting him hardcore into birding.

It's not cut and dry. Only one of my siblings shows narcissistic qualities, out of four. And he was the one put on a pedestal, even though he was mediocre in almost every aspect of school/sports. Coincidence? I don't think so. Anecdotal? Yes. But, I've noticed that same pattern with my mother, and with the ex-narc. Mediocre people who believe they are the best at everything and loved/respected by everyone. I am not going to be quick to believe that NPDs are only born that way. I think it's sooooo much more than that.

Anyways, those are just my thoughts. I'll drop it for now.

 

[Ronso]

My sister was born one. I mean that. She was not raised in such a way to create one. She did things as a toddler that were narcissistic. She has always been that way. Just because YOU have not met someone that you don't think was born that way, does not mean they aren't out there. Plenty of us know people.

I believe you. I think there are things that shape people that may not affect somebody that is "normal". If that makes sense. I'm not saying there isn't a genetic component. I'm just saying that the consensus of what I have read seems to lean towards the idea that narcissists are more often created rather than born that way.

 

[wendybtn]

I'd like a link to proof of that. Most of what I read, they believe narcissists are created. While I'm certain people are born with certain qualities that make them more susceptible to becoming a narcissist, I find it hard to believe anybody is born with it. I've dealt with narcissists throughout my life. Being a scapegoat child sort of turned me into a magnet for them. I've never seen clear cut evidence that anyone is born a narcissist. But, I am always willing to learn more about it.

http://m.hopkinsmedicine.org/health...th_disorders/personality_disorders_85,P00760/

https://www.bcm.edu/news/neurology/brain-imaging-insight-into-mental-disorders

 

[wendybtn]

Interesting - I JUST read something last week I think it was on CNN that narcissists are created not born.

I'm a huge believer that nature is responsible for about 95% of what we are and become and about 5% is lace on the edges that comes from our nurture. So I'm skeptical. But it was an interesting read.

I prefer research from medical schools and scientists. CNN may have some interesting shows and stories, but medical research and reporting is not their strength, or any other media that I watch or read.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I can bawl my eyes out and look normal five minutes later. I mean, we can pick apart pictures and such, but really all it's going to be is a reflection of how we view the people in those photos.

And you know, it sort of makes me sick that people are jumping on the sister or whichever family member it was who said she was the "best mom, hands down". Her comments in court do ring sort of a narcissistic tone with me. And let me tell you, as the scapegoat child of a narcissist, they have an uncanny ability to project perfection to everyone outside of the household. My entire family thinks I am insane, and the cause for all of the strife that ever went on in our house, because I was the kid who got to shoulder the blame for all of the dysfunction. So, maybe she did appear to be a "perfect" mom to the family member who said that. Or maybe the family breeds narcissists who will say anything to keep their reputation squeaky clean. I don't know. But all I know is that I am not about to condone a bandwagon of nastiness towards a family that may very well be sincere and grieving. Aren't we all better than that?

But even so, I have empathy for narcissists. They are not born, they are taught. Where did her parents and the people in her life go wrong? I have empathy for that. I, however, have no sympathy for her. I harbor no hate, but I also am sickened by what little bit I know. I won't say what happened. I won't speculate. As a birder, I'd hate to ever have to eat crow. If they are responsible for his death, be it by negligence, or flat-out murder, then I hope they get the full punishment that's coming to them.

Hopefully, I won't have to hear anymore mockery and sarcasm towards those of us that aren't lighting up our torches and grabbing our pitchforks just yet.

There is much debate in the mental health community about narcissism. Many believe they are born with this disposition or trait and then their environment growing up allows for the narcissism to become stronger and stronger until it is full blown.

Personally I have always believed it is both. Birth and environment while growing up.

I didn't see anything narcissist about what she said. Now if she had said she didn't deserve to be there or something like that I may think she is a narcissist.

Her statement that she was sad may actually be a true statement. She may very well be but of course the sadness could be that she knows she is in the criminal justice system and her future looks bleak now or she may really regret that her own actions killed her son if that is what happened. The truth is we just don't know.

The matter of fact statement made by Paul seemed much like a man would make. To get to the bottom of things quickly and that was wanting to know when he could make bond.

So for me ....I didn't learn anything from the short statements either one made. Pretty typical I think.

I don't think anyone really wants to harm this couple. Words come cheap nowadays especially on the internet with anonymous commenters. But I do believe that everyone wants them to be held fully legally accountable should they both be found guilty. I don't see anything wrong with wanting that. That is sure what I want and nothing more. Oh and if the charges are upgraded to murder I will also want the top sentence imposed if either one or both are found guilty of that charge as well.

I think it is just unrealistic to think most people are going to like anyone that is suspected of being a child abuser and possible child murderer.

I can certainly understand their family supporting them. I have seen that happen countless times and find it quite normal even if they turnout to be guilty. Often people show others the side they want them to see. Families can be fooled too just like anyone else.


JMO though

 

[Ronso]

http://m.hopkinsmedicine.org/health...th_disorders/personality_disorders_85,P00760/

https://www.bcm.edu/news/neurology/brain-imaging-insight-into-mental-disorders

Sorry- I can't find any evidence here saying that people are born this way. Am I missing a link on these pages I should click on? I know the definitions of the personality disorders... believe me.

The second link is pretty cool though. Would be amazing to be able to treat personality disorders effectively. (Though, the issue would be convincing a Narcissist that they'd need the treatment in the first place...)

 

[JLSChook]

RIP Noah. :rose: Fly with the angels, little man.

I will never stand up for or defend your abusers. Even if they didn't murder you, with intent, they are still parasites that decided to harm 2 innocent children who were defenseless and dependent upon them for love, SAFETY and security.

This "victim friendly" forum should include NOT making excuses for killers/abusers, etc...IMO. I guess Felony Child Abuse isn't enough?
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility?

I understand that everyone is allowed their opinions and that's fine. Now you have mine.

I'm done with this thread until more charges are announced.

 

[Ronso]

There is much debate in the mental health community about narcissism. Many believe they are born with this disposition or trait and then their environment growing up allows for the narcissism to become stronger and stronger until it is full blown.

Personally I have always believed it is both. Birth and environment while growing up.

I didn't see anything narcissist about what she said. Now if she had said she didn't deserve to be there or something like that I may think she is a narcissist.

Her statement that she was sad may actually be a true statement. She may very well be but of course the sadness could be that she knows she is in the criminal justice system and her future looks bleak now or she may really regret that her own actions killed her son if that is what happened. The truth is we just don't know.

The matter of fact statement made by Paul seemed much like a man would make. To get to the bottom of things quickly and that was wanting to know when he could make bond.

So for me ....I didn't learn anything from the short statements either one made. Pretty typical I think.

I don't think anyone really wants to harm this couple. Words come cheap nowadays especially on the internet with anonymous commenters. But I do believe that everyone wants them to be held fully legally accountable should they both be found guilty. I don't see anything wrong with wanting that. That is sure what I want and nothing more. Oh and if the charges are upgraded to murder I will also want the top sentence imposed if either one or both are found guilty of that charge as well.

I think it is just unrealistic to think most people are going to like anyone that is suspected of being a child abuser and possible child murderer.

I can certainly understand their family supporting them. I have seen that happen countless times and find it quite normal even if they turnout to be guilty. Often people show others the side they want them to see. Families can be fooled too just like anyone else.


JMO though

I think what struck me as narcisstic was the whole "dinner conversation" quote, not how sad she was. It could just be my own personal biases of watching my mother pretend to be somebody she wasn't, and that our family was perfect, when I knew so much different. She was always so concerned with people knowing her business. It just struck me as something my own mother would've said.

 

[Bayou Mistress]

RIP Noah. :rose: Fly with the angels, little man.

I will never stand up for or defend your abusers. Even if they didn't murder you, with intent, they are still parasites that decided to harm 2 innocent children who were defenseless and dependent upon them for love, SAFETY and security.

This "victim friendly" forum should include NOT making excuses for killers/abusers, etc...IMO. I guess Felony Child Abuse isn't enough?
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility?

I understand that everyone is allowed their opinions and that's fine. Now you have mine.

I'm done with this thread until more charges are announced.

I don't disagree with you, but I do want to be sure I encompass ALL victims, therefore I tend to reserve judgement for a time.

 

[courtneyb]

RIP Noah. :rose: Fly with the angels, little man.

I will never stand up for or defend your abusers. Even if they didn't murder you, with intent, they are still parasites that decided to harm 2 innocent children who were defenseless and dependent upon them for love, SAFETY and security.

This "victim friendly" forum should include NOT making excuses for killers/abusers, etc...IMO. I guess Felony Child Abuse isn't enough?
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility?

I understand that everyone is allowed their opinions and that's fine. Now you have mine.

I'm done with this thread until more charges are announced.

Can I come with you? [emoji57]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wendybtn]

Sorry- I can't find any evidence here saying that people are born this way. Am I missing a link on these pages I should click on? I know the definitions of the personality disorders... believe me.

The second link is pretty cool though. Would be amazing to be able to treat personality disorders effectively. (Though, the issue would be convincing a Narcissist that they'd need the treatment in the first place...)

Showing the differences in brain structures for people that do and don't have certain traits and behaviours, indicates the thinking is changing. The cause may be more organic than previously accepted. Which also means actual treatments that can cure the disorder or least control the symptoms are getting closer than ever. Remember, as much as we know about the brain, there is much much more that we do not know. So the possibility of improving knowledge, treatment, and care is unlimited and really just beginning. How we look at it in 20-30 years maybe totally different. People's suffering would be lessened, oh, I could go on and on . . . Sorry, just a science nerd at heart!

 

[SeriouslySearching]

If this mother was a Narcissist, she would have taken the media by storm from Day 1 and tried to be on every front page daily, imo. She would have believed no one could speak for her because her words were most important, I think. She probably would have been convinced she had done nothing wrong and that people would agree because she could control the situation.

Not seeing it in this case at all. (Or do I have it wrong about a Narcissist?)

 

[oceanblueeyes]

And that may be enough for some on the board - all the rest is in the details. But for many of us - myself included - that leaves more questions unanswered than it answers.

I for one wonder why they didn't wait for the autopsy to be complete before charging them. EITHER, they were neglectful and unwatchful and did drugs and had an unsafe home and as a result this child has died of a tragic accident while being unsupervised, or one or both of them killed him and put him in the septic tank. And the way I see it, those two scenarios aren't even closely related. They are as far apart as night and day.

And the second scenario would also include charges of murder or manslaughter, obstructing evidence, calling in a false police report, etc., which are not present.

I actually think that is becoming a new strategy for some DAs nowadays. I have seen lesser charges filed first on someone LE suspects has committed a much more serious crime. It was done in the Guy Heinz Jr. mass murder case,Jessie Mathews and Durst.

There was no reason for them to wait on these charges. They are what they are and the DA evidently feels he can prove these charges BARD. They would be remiss in their duties if they saw child abuse and neglect of Noah's little sister and not press charges as soon as they had the evidence and not only that they have a dead child who wound up in their own septic tank.

No where does it state that Noah died accidentally. In fact included in these charges it stated they had a disregard for human life.(paraphrasing) They are not only charged with being neglectful but being abusive parents as well. Abuse and neglect are very different.

So the DA has set forth two possible scenarios by these charges. They could have been neglectful causing Noah's death or their actions could have been from being abusive to Noah causing him to die.

I do think there will be additional charges coming after the AR is complete and some of the forensic evidence is back in.

 

[Ronso]

But isn't it also true that emotional/psychological trauma, especially at an early age, shapes the structure and function of the brain?

All very interesting stuff. I read so much, but I am terrible with bookmarking so I never remember where I read it. Then bits and pieces just become stuck in my brain. lol

 

[JeannaT]

I prefer research from medical schools and scientists. CNN may have some interesting shows and stories, but medical research and reporting is not their strength, or any other media that I watch or read.

I don't have the article in front of me, but I'm quite certain it wasn't an article where CNN reporters sat around and chatted amongst themselves about their opinions. I'm quite certain it was medical schools and scientists who were the basis of the article.

But at any rate, it sure is prickery in here tonight. I think I'll go sit on the balcony and chat with my husband.

 

[hockeymom4]

Yes; as are our banks, public schools, and post office.

Things are open by me today.