GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #5

[vasportsmom]

I ran across this article which gives the guidelines for minimum age allowable to leave your children home alone...

http://www.latchkey-kids.com/latchkey-kids-age-limits.htm

According to this, there is no minimum age a child has to be to be legally left home alone in Virginia. And, shockingly, also in most states.

How is this possible? If this is correct, how can LE or DFS conclude neglect based just on the fact that kids are left alone? Clearly, in Noah's case, something went terribly awry (and it may have happened before the parents even left in the morning and sustained neglect certainly may have been present).

From everyone's posts, I can see that most everyone feels that five (and certainly 6-8 months) is too young to be left at home alone, for any amount of time. What age is okay? 8? 9? 12? How much time alone? Just curious. I think small amounts of time are okay once they are around 9-11 if they can demonstrate responsibility and what not.

A few months ago my crazy mother called CPS to report me for letting my oldest stay home alone one weekend.
He's nearly 20 ...


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[courtneyb]

We have to use some deduction here. My understanding is if Noah would have drowned in the septic tank, the COD would have been released immediately. Since that did not happen, we can assume he did not drown to death. (Add in the fact the lid was on the septic tank, so it is unlikely he drowned anyways, unless somebody purposely put him down there to drown.) With the deduction he most likely didn't drown, we have the following scenarios: 1) somebody snuck into their home while AW was taking PT to work. In that short period of time, they murdered Noah and placed him in the septic tank in broad daylight; 2) Noah died due to neglect/mal-treatment from a parent; or 3) Noah was murdered by a parent.

IMO, the only reason they haven't been charged with murder or manslaughter is because they need the autopsy report to come back.

To this in its entirety, yes.



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[courtneyb]

A few months ago my crazy mother called CPS to report me for letting my oldest stay home alone one weekend.
He's nearly 20 ...


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Lol!


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[Dogface]

I think because they expect parents to use their brains. Common sense isn't so common these days.

My nanny use to say you could get rich selling common sense if the people who needed it weren't too dumb to buy it!!

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo I don't think drowning can be ruled out yet. I think they want to see if he had drugs in his system before proceeding with other charges. If he drowned, it could have been accidental, depending upon the real story behind the lid of the tank. If he drowned but was drugged, it is something else. If he died another way...it could be murder.

I wonder if suffocation could occur before drowning, awful as that sounds, too...

 

[MzOpinion8d]

You're not alone... :/

And if Noah had already passed before they left that morning, then that means they left the baby, an infant!, alone for that time. That makes me so sad thinking of that baby, possibly totally alone, crying, stuck in a crib or playpen, scared. Ugh.

She was better off all by herself than with either of her parents around, I know that much...

 

[courtneyb]

http://www.wset.com/story/28809827/update-noah-thomas-case-both-parents-bond-hearings-today

"At the afternoon bond hearing for Ashley White, Noah's mother, White's defense team called Dennis Cales to the stand. Cales, White's uncle, told the court he would allow White to live in his home in Giles County. White said his 11-year-old granddaughter lives with him and his wife.

"Putting her into a home with a child is unthinkable at this point," said Judge Karen Loftin, just before ordering White continue to be held without bond.

BBM

Pretty strong statement from the judge. I'd say a true accident is probably pretty low on the list of "What happened here?"

 

[tresptip]

She was better off all by herself than with either of her parents around, I know that much...

I'm not touching this one with a pole either!

 

[mpnola]

And if Noah had fell and cracked his head on an end table and died while mom was doing the dishes I suppose she should still deserve to be punished for not being there to catch the fall.

What? I don't think anyone would deny that accidents happen with kids, and adults, actually. The difference is that a responsible adult responds in an appropriate way to minimize the harm. My son got his finger caught in the treadmill belt- I rushed him to urgent care, freaking out the whole way there. My mom ran over her own arm with her car (long story- it involved jumping out away from a spider)- I called 911. You see, accidents do happen. The difference is in the appropriateness of response. No one would argue that throwing someone in a septic tank would be considered an appropriate response to an accident. Innocent people don't hide accidents by throwing their child in a sh-- hole.

And failure to respond is where neglect comes in. I know the subject well. I taught the abuse and neglect class for my job for 16 years.

 

[Dogface]

This whole thread would be different if sometime that morning there was a 911 call from mom saying an accident had happened verses a 5 day search which ended with finding his body in a septic tank. We would actually all feel bad for her I imagine. We may still question if he should or shouldnt have been allowed to play outside without supervision but we would all think "God how awful".

 

[maureen718]

What? I don't think anyone would deny that accidents happen with kids, and adults, actually. The difference is that a responsible adult responds in an appropriate way to minimize the harm. My son got his finger caught in the treadmill belt- I rushed him to urgent care, freaking out the whole way there. My mom ran over her own arm with her car (long story- it involved jumping out away from a spider)- I called 911. You see, accidents do happen. The difference is in the appropriateness of response. No one would argue that throwing someone in a septic tank would be considered an appropriate response to an accident. Innocent people don't hide accidents by throwing their child in a sh-- hole.

And failure to respond is where neglect comes in. I know the subject well. I taught the abuse and neglect class for my job for 16 years.

Oh mpola please please tell me your mom is okay and permanent damage wasn't done and please please tell me quickly I'm holding my breath because I really want to be :laughing: but don't want to be insensitive

 

[tresptip]

What? I don't think anyone would deny that accidents happen with kids, and adults, actually. The difference is that a responsible adult responds in an appropriate way to minimize the harm. My son got his finger caught in the treadmill belt- I rushed him to urgent care, freaking out the whole way there. My mom ran over her own arm with her car (long story- it involved jumping out away from a spider)- I called 911. You see, accidents do happen. The difference is in the appropriateness of response. No one would argue that throwing someone in a septic tank would be considered an appropriate response to an accident. Innocent people don't hide accidents by throwing their child in a sh-- hole.

And failure to respond is where neglect comes in. I know the subject well. I taught the abuse and neglect class for my job for 16 years.

Where was it confirmed that Noah was thrown into a Septic tank?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

We have to use some deduction here. My understanding is if Noah would have drowned in the septic tank, the COD would have been released immediately. Since that did not happen, we can assume he did not drown to death. (Add in the fact the lid was on the septic tank, so it is unlikely he drowned anyways, unless somebody purposely put him down there to drown.) With the deduction he most likely didn't drown, we have the following scenarios: 1) somebody snuck into their home while AW was taking PT to work. In that short period of time, they murdered Noah and placed him in the septic tank in broad daylight; 2) Noah died due to neglect/mal-treatment from a parent; or 3) Noah was murdered by a parent.

IMO, the only reason they haven't been charged with murder or manslaughter is because they need the autopsy report to come back.

I think the only test they are waiting on is to see if drugs or other substances were introduced into Noah's system. Of course, they are waiting on the results before charging them with murder or manslaughter. They need to know what happened before they can make their case.

We can deduce certain things, but one we cannot say for certain is how Noah got into the tank. Since there are proven cases where children have gone into septic tanks and the lids have flipped back into place, we know it is possible. The probability may be low, but we cannot make that deduction based on what we know right now.

If Noah drowned and had fluid from the septic tank in his lungs, he went in alive but still could have been on his own (manslaughter charge). If Noah had no sign of liquid in his lungs, he was dead before he was placed in the tank (murder charge). If Noah had an overdose of drugs in his system and had fluid from the septic tank, he was placed in the tank alive (murder charge). If he had an overdose of drugs in his system and no fluid, he was dead and placed in the tank to cover it up (murder charge).

The autopsy report would have already shown if Noah was alive or dead upon entering the tank when they studied his lungs. They could be waiting on the final report of the fluid inside the lungs to show it was from the tank possibly, but I don't know why that would take very long to compare. Since there has been no charge of murder or manslaughter yet...it could mean they have proof he was alive when he went in.

If Noah did go into the tank on his own, it was an accident on his part with no one around to prevent or rescue him. I am certain he did not mean to fall in if it happened that way. However, the parents were neglectful in the situation for leaving him alone making it a crime. I agree with throwing the book at the both of them. I am not taking up for them in any way.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

MSM articles have quoted the arrest reports as saying whatever happened that brought the current charges both parents face "led to Noah's death".

His parents would not have been arrested and charged with felonies if an accident had occurred.

I would like to know why AW had to drive PT to work that morning anyway. Why did she need the car? Seems like he could have driven himself and then come home on lunch and had her drive him back if she needed it later.

My guess is they didn't volunteer the info about leaving the kids home alone until they were confronted with the video evidence that they were seen in the store without the kids. At that point LE knew they had left the kids unattended somewhere, either in the car or at home.

 

[Dogface]

Let's say as a possible theory Noah was playing outside alone and fell in septic tank and mom realized this and put the lid on and reported him missing. I would say that would still at the very least be a manslaughter charge because she didn't seek help! The fact that remains unwavering is no matter what type of accident could have occurred, not seeking immediate help is neglect. Even if I thought I might go to jail I would still call 911 if I thought my baby was hurt.

 

[mpnola]

Oh mpola please please tell me your mom is okay and permanent damage wasn't done and please please tell me quickly I'm holding my breath because I really want to be :laughing: but don't want to be insensitive

Laugh away. They couldn't believe she wasn't more damaged. A little therapy because she had already had a shoulder replacement and they were concerned, but it wasn't even broken, miraculously! In the end, she was just more embarrassed than injured, thankfully!

 

[Teche]

Those two young parents left their young children unsupervised. Age has nothing to do with their poor, criminal behavior/choices. Using drugs/pot when you're responsible caring for their children. Children sleeping is not permission to be in an altered state of mind.

 

[mpnola]

I also wanted to say that since Noah did not take that ride in the morning to work, the coat and rain boots are extra bad news, to me. You could SLIGHTLY get your brain to believe he just didnt take it off after driving his dad to work, but thats not the case.

 

[tresptip]

MSM articles have quoted the arrest reports as saying whatever happened that brought the current charges both parents face "led to Noah's death".

His parents would not have been arrested and charged with felonies if an accident had occurred.

I would like to know why AW had to drive PT to work that morning anyway. Why did she need the car? Seems like he could have driven himself and then come home on lunch and had her drive him back if she needed it later.

My guess is they didn't volunteer the info about leaving the kids home alone until they were confronted with the video evidence that they were seen in the store without the kids. At that point LE knew they had left the kids unattended somewhere, either in the car or at home.

They could be still be charged with felonies if neglect caused an accidental death.

 

[Teche]

Good decision, judge!