GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #6

[CatsInTheCradle]

I share your thoughts, JennaT.

What I truly can't wrap my head around is how easily it seems that the first assumptions are the worst. As a mother, I can't put the pieces together in any arrangement to create a potential situation where it is *more* likely that a parent put their child in a septic tank, for any reason. I naturally assume that it's much more likely to be a tragic accident or even an outsider (I realize there is not currently and released evidence to suggest that anyone else was involved). I haven't even seen any rumors suggesting that the parents were mentally ill (but I've seen some much less logical, far reaching rumors!), so without that being a potential factor, I guess I'm just in the minority that believe that a mentally stable mom wouldn't put her child in a septic tank.

Welcome aboard! Are you talking first assumptions when Noah went missing or after LE charged them with felony abuse and neglect which led to Noah's death?

 

[Mollyandme]

Welcome sweetness follows! I love your user name! It's very good to hear that the baby is with a loving family member. While I pretty much disagree with a lot of what you posted in terms of this being an accident, i do appreciate your opinion. I think we all know that none of us is fully aware of what goes on behind the closed doors of even our closest family members. I just can't get the words of the judge that it would be unthinkable for the mom to be in the home with an 11 year old, out of my head. I am also viewing this from the perspective of someone who used to work in social work and saw all sorts of things being done around children that other relatives had no clue about until we called and asked if they could be a resource for the child so they didn't have to go into foster care, so yes, I am jaded and skeptical. But thats the beauty of websleuths and it's nice to have thoughtful discussion, even when you don't agree. Thank you for your post, it was thoughtful, well written, and kind of you to share that with us.

 

[JeannaT]

Well, the public aren't the ones who have charged the parents with their felony abuse and neglect charges, and we the public are not the ones who have denied bail. Soooo this leads me to believe that if this were merely a tragic accident, the charges and the bail would be different. Not for one second do I think A is a flight risk. Where would she go and by what means? The Judge thought it too risky for her to be around an 11 year old who she would not be in charge of. All we know right now is very telling. IMO

I don't have the article at hand, but I do remember reading a representative of the court saying public reaction was a "factor" in the charges and them being denied bail. I honestly don't think - for a minute - that if the public roundly supported them or ignored this case, they would be there in jail without bond. I don't think that for a minute.

 

[SweetnessFollows]

Welcome aboard! Are you talking first assumptions when Noah went missing or after LE charged them with felony abuse and neglect which led to Noah's death?

Either -- I absolutely realize that it is obvious that, due to neglect, poor Noah lost his life. We don't know *for sure* when Noah went missing. All we know that it occurred between the time when he was seen on surveillance camera the prior evening and when AW called LE. We don't know *why* she was napping - she could have taken cold medicine, she could have fallen asleep while nursing baby (she was breastfeeding), she could have been exhausted due to circumstances that we don't know, or she could have just taken a nap because she felt like it. We don't know if Noah's disappearance was a result of being left home unattended, his mother's "nap," or something all together different.

All I'm saying is that, as a mother, I find it more likely to be neglect due to poor decisions -- not neglect -- or worse -- due to not caring or not loving her child.

I realize that I may be completely off base with my feelings, logic, reasoning, etc. However, based on what I've been told by my relative who knew Noah very well (and his parents) since birth and was close to the family, along with how I view the world (perhaps with rose colored glasses), I just can't see how it was in any way malicious.

 

[courtneyb]

I am going to bring over the list of ways I previously posted that lay out the possible ways Noah ended up in the septic tank. Please feel free to suggest any other ways that I may have not thought of, as well as your thoughts on why or why not any can be ruled out.


Noah fell into the septic tank while playing outside, without any extenuating circumstances. - **my problem(s) with this still being considered a scenario are listed below, based on the facts as we know them, as well as what we know about determining CODs and what we know about the legal aspects**

Either he took something himself and fell in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and fell in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and was put in the tank and drowned.

He was given something and died and his body placed in the tank.

He took something himself and was put in the tank and drowned.

He took something himself, died and his body was placed in the tank

He had some other accident and his body placed in the tank.

He was killed unintentionally as the result of some type of abuse and his body placed in the tank

He was killed intentionally and placed in the tank.




***If Noah's death was purely accidental, we have to consider these things. Noah was unsupervised, wandered outside and fell in the septic tank. COD would be drowning. In this case, the lungs would be full of water, waste, sludge from the tank. If it were obvious by the presence of septic tank water in his lungs, then the tox reports would not be so important, we wouldn’t be “waiting” on them. Also, Ashley’s denial of bond and the judge’s assertion that it was “unthinkable” that Ashley should be around ANY child at this point, tells us that there is more to this than an unsupervised child falling into a septic tank just because he was unsupervised. If that were the case, why would Ashley potentially be a danger to her Uncle’s 11 year old daughter? She is not responsible for that child, so whether or not Ashley would supervise this child is a moot point. Plus, this is an 11 year old, not a young child likely to wander off and fall into a septic tank.
This is what effectively rules out the chances of Noah falling into the tank accidentally as a result of being unsupervised:
1. COD would be drowning – lungs filled with septic tank water, not just plain water, and easily determined at initial autopsy.
2. Ashley’s denial of bond twice, with the Judge’s statement about her not being around any child. Unsupervised children have accidents all the time. They are not usually held without bond, even after appeal, pending toxicology results.

Lid ON or lid OFF, it doesn’t even matter, the septic tank water’s presence or absence in the lungs would tell if this were accidental. And, they would be able to determine, based upon the alveolar changes/damage in the lungs, whether the septic tank water was inhaled during the course of a drowning, or if it seeped in post mortem.
The only possible thing they could be waiting for on the tox report, if the autopsy showed that the act of drowning took place inside the septic tank, would be to determine if he had drugs in his system when he fell in or was placed in

If Noah’s COD was determined to be drowning, but the water in his lungs that is responsible for the drowning itself was determined to be water from another location (pond, bathtub, etc.), then it is only possible that Noah drowned/was drowned elsewhere and then his body placed in the tank.

Again, it does not matter if the lid was on or off, bolted or not, covered in sod or not.

If Noah's death was purely accidental, and the story above is true, these parents are guilty of nothing but leaving their children alone one time for 15-30 minutes, and smoking a joint (Paul). As I see it, the charges just don't jive with this scenario.

Nor the denial of bond. Twice for Ashley.

Nor the judge's statements about Ashley being around children.

Nor the need to even worry about Ashley being a flight risk. If it was an accident, why does it matter?

Nor the idea that LE is holding the parents, waiting to prove for sure that this is an accident.

We have at least one family member saying they were drug addicts, and we have one insider saying they absolutely were not. I'm just going to say that they cancel each other out because I don't have the information to give one of their word any more weight than the other.


Any suggestions or anything I left out?

 

[passionflower]

does anyone remember during Caylee Anthony case someone said he 'clock times' are important in someones mind.....................but could be am or pm.
we have '3 hours', 10:30 (mom) and 11:00 (documented)

 

[courtneyb]

does anyone remember during Caylee Anthony case someone said he 'clock times' are important in someones mind.....................but could be am or pm.
we have '3 hours', 10:30 (mom) and 11:00 (documented)

Are you referring to "the liar's number"?

 

[courtneyb]

The severity of the charges and denial of bond, along with the judge's statements, for me, in no way support the idea that the neglect was resulting from poor decisions. And if they were loving wonderful parents, we would have to believe that this was ONE poor decision. It doesn't make sense, to me, anyway. Just my opinion, of course.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wishbone]

I find it very hard to believe that after an accident that resulted in the death of a child that loving parents would then place the body of that precious child in a septic tank. IMO to dispose of Noah’s little body in that manner does not equate with loving parents that made a mistake. To further desecrate his body in that manner reeks of out and out guilt in my eyes. I’m sickened that any parent could even contemplate something like that.

 

[tlcya]

:welcome5: SweetnessFollows Thanks for sharing your thoughts and joining the conversation.

 

[SStarr33]

SweetnessFollows, do you know who it was who first searched the septic? If you know, can you say?

 

[SweetnessFollows]

I was curious to see if Virginia has any legal code that classifies neglect and/or abuse of children as a misdemeanor as opposed to a felony. A cursory search only yielded felony charges.

I did, however, find this link: Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services -- Child Abuse: Virginia Statutes and Case Law.

It's 137 pages and I don't really have the opportunity to read through it right now. I'm sure it will be an interesting read, though.

 

[SweetnessFollows]

SweetnessFollows, do you know who it was who first searched the septic? If you know, can you say?

I don't know who first searched it -- I wonder that myself. While there was *some* communication with the parents after LE arrived, it was very limited. However, it is my understanding that the parents not only checked prior to the arrival of LE but also asked LE to check also. I do NOT know this for sure and I also do not know WHEN PT returned home, or how he got home.

The details for this time period are limited and not certain as my relative didn't speak to anyone directly -- only with someone else who had spoken with them directly.

**I don't really know ANYTHING about what would be considered the investigative stage!!!**

I want to clarify that I don't know any more than anyone else with regards to what actually happened to Noah or anything after that. I'm wondering the same as everyone else.

 

[AnnaGrace]

What I don't understand is why the condition of the septic tank hasn't been discussed or released by LE. If it was uncovered and not secured, why not just say so?

Here are two recent cases (after Noah) of children falling into septic tanks, one a tank for waste oil, etc.) They both died as results. In both cases faulty lids were reported. The first two links are concerning the case in WV. The third link in the one in NC.

http://www.wsls.com/story/28696084/...lling-into-septic-style-tank-in-west-virginia

Chief Bennett says the cover of the septic-style tank was partially open and it appears the boy fell in. At this time no charges have been filed but the child's death remains under investigation.

http://www.wvva.com/story/28682999/2015/04/01/alderson-child-died-after-falling-into-septic-tank

ALDERSON, WV (WVVA) -

The owner of an Exxon station in Alderson is now facing charges after a toddler fell into a grease pit last week and died.

That charge carries a $100 fine, 10 days in jail, or both.


http://q13fox.com/2015/04/06/2-year-old-dies-after-falling-into-septic-tank-in-burlington/

After a few minutes, a deputy noticed the lid on this septic tank wasn’t sitting right. So he opened it up and looked inside.

 

[AnnaGrace]

There was a news article too that I can't find, about the contents of the septic tank being collected from the truck tank for analysis. IIRC it was right after the interview with the septic tech who did the actual pumping. Does anybody remember where that was? Would that be considered a standard procedure?

 

[Steleheart]

I find it very hard to believe that after an accident that resulted in the death of a child that loving parents would then place the body of that precious child in a septic tank. IMO to dispose of Noah’s little body in that manner does not equate with loving parents that made a mistake. To further desecrate his body in that manner reeks of out and out guilt in my eyes. I’m sickened that any parent could even contemplate something like that.

I won't say that they did or did not. But I still cannot wrap my head around it. If they did I just don't know how they even went to the bathroom in those 5 days. That just stops me cold and makes the whole idea even more cruel and heartless.

I can still see other scenarios like some currently unknown individual took Noah's life and put him there because he was left alone and vulnerable.
I can see he and some friends playing near it and got the cover off. Noah could have fallen in and they panicked when he didn't answer, replaced the cover and said nothing. If so, maybe they finally told someone and thus the reason to have it pumped. Also if they are young like Noah, that could be a reason to then deny there was a tip.

Maybe there was a polygraph done on the parents.

These scenarios are JMO and based on nothing but speculation.

They are still awaiting tox results and IIRC they kept the truck that pumped it to do further testing or inspection.

MOO

 

[JeannaT]

What I don't understand is why the condition of the septic tank hasn't been discussed or released by LE. If it was uncovered and not secured, why not just say so?

Here are two recent cases (after Noah) of children falling into septic tanks, one a tank for waste oil, etc.) They both died as results. In both cases faulty lids were reported. The first two links are concerning the case in WV. The third link in the one in NC.

http://www.wsls.com/story/28696084/...lling-into-septic-style-tank-in-west-virginia

Chief Bennett says the cover of the septic-style tank was partially open and it appears the boy fell in. At this time no charges have been filed but the child's death remains under investigation.

http://www.wvva.com/story/28682999/2015/04/01/alderson-child-died-after-falling-into-septic-tank

ALDERSON, WV (WVVA) -

The owner of an Exxon station in Alderson is now facing charges after a toddler fell into a grease pit last week and died.

That charge carries a $100 fine, 10 days in jail, or both.


http://q13fox.com/2015/04/06/2-year-old-dies-after-falling-into-septic-tank-in-burlington/

After a few minutes, a deputy noticed the lid on this septic tank wasn’t sitting right. So he opened it up and looked inside.

Different LE's have different philosophies. Some are very forthcoming - this one is exceptionally tight-lipped. There may be a real problem with the memories of the first responders who did the cursory look inside - maybe two guys did it, separately, and they don't know which was first, and can't clearly remember whether the lid was slightly ajar, or seemed more sealed, etc. When asked if it was possible the lid was slightly ajar - they may just say I'm sorry I really can't remember. I saw the lid, and lifted it easily because it's so light, and looked in.

An aside, in the Loic Rogers case, the septic tank company is being sued for failing to install a "kid catcher" inside, which apparently is routine. I guess. Never heard of it myself.

 

[AnnaGrace]

Sweetness, I'm really glad you posted. It's good to hear from someone who knew this family. I really want to hear both sides and always have. I want to know that Noah was loved and had a happy life. Thank you.

 

[Wishbone]

I won't say that they did or did not. But I still cannot wrap my head around it. If they did I just don't know how they even went to the bathroom in those 5 days. That just stops me cold and makes the whole idea even more cruel and heartless.

I can still see other scenarios like some currently unknown individual took Noah's life and put him there because he was left alone and vulnerable.
I can see he and some friends playing near it and got the cover off. Noah could have fallen in and they panicked when he didn't answer, replaced the cover and said nothing. If so, maybe they finally told someone and thus the reason to have it pumped. Also if they are young like Noah, that could be a reason to then deny there was a tip.

Maybe there was a polygraph done on the parents.

These scenarios are JMO and based on nothing but speculation.

They are still awaiting tox results and IIRC they kept the truck that pumped it to do further testing or inspection.

MOO

Am thinking that if LE is awaiting tox results they have ruled out drowning by septic tank and Noah was placed in that cesspit after death.

 

[SStarr33]

Am thinking that if LE is awaiting tox results they have ruled out drowning by septic tank and Noah was placed in that cesspit after death.

You don't think they would still want a tox report?