Vatican calling for Boycott of Da Vinci Code

[lynie]

Oh, please.

So are you saying that God created only the Catholic religion, since that is what you practice? I KNOW my very fundamentalist sister in law thinks that God created only her faith...and because I go to a New Age church I belong to a cult and my God is not a God at all...

A friend of mine belongs to a church that is Catholic AND Lutheran...go figure...which man was right that made that church?

There are more people on earth that call him Mohammad, Budda, Allah and on and on...are these are not all man made religions that have started and continue to perpetuate wars and hate and fighting? All so we can love and be loved and be welcomed into his/her eternal kingdom?

So yes, the message and the point is God, but the vessels are all man...

Lynie

 

[Dark Knight]

Miss the point much? The point isn't that priests molest in equivalent numbers, it's that we should be able to expect them to be better than "other lines of service professions."

But since we're talking about other service professions, name ONE that protected child molesters in such a systematic and far reaching manner?

This has nothing to do with DVC, DK, but you are in serious denial about your church.

Snarky, much? I do not expect clergy to be better than anyone else, as we are all sinners, and they are probably tormented by the devil more than anyone else to commit those sins. Sadly, many do expect them to be better than everyone else, but that just isn't realistic across the board. Many ARE holier than the average person, I'm sure, but even they will sin.

And I think that the cover ups and protections were abhorable and inexcusable. My point was that the media does NOT turn a blind eye to scandals, and in many cases (Chicago Cardinal Joseph Bernadin comes to mind) they run with it before all the facts are even out. They could care less about protecting institutions of faith, and sometimes would just as soon run them through the mud for sensationalism.

 

[Dark Knight]

So are you saying that God created only the Catholic religion, since that is what you practice? I KNOW my very fundamentalist sister in law thinks that God created only her faith...and because I go to a New Age church I belong to a cult and my God is not a God at all...

A friend of mine belongs to a church that is Catholic AND Lutheran...go figure...which man was right that made that church?

There are more people on earth that call him Mohammad, Budda, Allah and on and on...are these are not all man made religions that have started and continue to perpetuate wars and hate and fighting? All so we can love and be loved and be welcomed into his/her eternal kingdom?

So yes, the message and the point is God, but the vessels are all man...

Lynie

I do believe that Christ appointed St. Peter as the Bishop of Rome, of course, which is why I converted, in part, from the UCC (But as I said earlier, I don't think we're the only ones going to heaven, lol.). But when speaking to members of other denominations or religions, they seem to believe that the person (Martin Luther, for example, or Mohammed) who "founded" their faith was led by the Holy Spirit or God to do so, so they are therefore non completely "man-made."

And I would bet your very fundamentalist friend would say I am going to Hell and that the Pope is the Antichrist, lol. (I've heard both a few times, lol.)

The church that is both Catholic and Lutheran is a new one on me. Interesting!

 

[narlacat]

<< Even worse, the media made it sound like the doctrine of celebacy caused it, which is insane, of course. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/bang.gif>>

The media has done nothing of the sort.
The statistics re: pedophile Catholic priests speak for themselves.
It's always the Catholic priests lol.

 

[sandraladeda]

Miss the point much? The point isn't that priests molest in equivalent numbers, it's that we should be able to expect them to be better than "other lines of service professions."

But since we're talking about other service professions, name ONE that protected child molesters in such a systematic and far reaching manner?

I can name one other service profession - I have reliable knowledge of molestations within school boards, in which 1. the victim was paid off, 2. the police are able to do nothing without a victim pressing charges and 3. the perpetrators continue to teach and rise up through the systems.


Notice how many stories have been in the press in recent years about teachers having sexual relationships with their students? Is this a brand new phenomenon? Yet amazingly enough, parents are still sending children to school!

Hushing up abuses is wrong, but lets face facts, so much of the abuses have occurred in past times when you just did not speak of such matters. Rape victims did not report rapes, schools did not report abuses by teachers, victims of incest abuse did not report their relatives, and yes, churches did not report abuses by priests.

People can go on and on about past abuse all they want. What's happening today? As a very strongly active member of the Catholic church, and not just someone slinging mud from the sidelines because I "think" I have a clue what the Catholic church is all about, I have seen the pendulum swing the other way - even the slightest hint of wrongdoing, whether substantiated or not, can result in perfectly good priest being put out to pasture, just in case, so the church cannot be accused of hushing it up.

 

[Maral]

<< Even worse, the media made it sound like the doctrine of celebacy caused it, which is insane, of course. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/bang.gif>>

The media has done nothing of the sort.
The statistics re: pedophile Catholic priests speak for themselves.
It's always the Catholic priests lol.

You are right, narlacat, the statistics do speak for themselves. And they show that the number of Catholic priests that are pedophiles are no higher than the number of pedophiles in the general population.

 

[windovervocalcords]

"As a very strongly active member of the Catholic church, and not just someone slinging mud from the sidelines because I "think" I have a clue what the Catholic church is all about, I have seen the pendulum swing the other way - even the slightest hint of wrongdoing, whether substantiated or not, can result in perfectly good priest being put out to pasture, just in case, so the church cannot be accused of hushing it up."

I don't think you would be using the term "slinging mud from the sidelines" in reference to non-catholics ( who have opinions about the truth of how unskillfully the Catholic Church handled the sexual abuse by their clergy) if it wasn't still so incredibly painful for you and all Catholics to remember.

The Church has taken steps to remedy the problem finally. I think it will still be awhile before true healing occurs and all of us can put that unhappy chapter of your churches history behind us.

It must be miserable to be a Catholic and have the issue continually brought up over and over again at this critical juncture in recovering from this collective trauma.

Nova and others have made some good points.

Catholic priests are not inherently more llikely to be pedophiles than others in the general population. The Church has taken and will continue to take flack over the past policy of placing itself outside the law and protecting pedophiles.

Just as Nixon went down for cover up, more than the break in,
the Church has been in the hotseat over the cover-up and protection issue more than the sexual abuse itself.

This issue of the Churches betrayl of the larger community as well as the Catholic community seems a much more serious threat to Catholics faith in their Church than the Da Vinci Code.

I think its a unfair burden for any single follower of any faith to have to defend what is indefensible in their churches. Not only were the children traumatized by the pedophilia, but the whole community was as well.

It is courageous of all of you who practice your faith to the best of your abilities. Take heart in what comforts and sustains you. And maybe allow yourself to be supported by faith, your faith community and all others of us in the extended community who suffer just as you do with times of challenge and confusion.

 

[Nova]

Snarky, much?

Yeah. Probably too much. But in this case I meant just what I said. (But no more. It was not my intent to disrespect you in general.)

I do not expect clergy to be better than anyone else...

But apparently many if not most lay Catholics do, or we would not hear so many stories about young people being allowed to go on "overnighters" to the rectory. At the very least, the Church needs to more clearly publicize the "special temptations" you suggest may be visited on its clergy.

For the record, in my admittedly limited experience, the priests I've known do indeed seem (at least to the extent of my knowledge) to be better than the average person. Not perfect, but more spiritual and morally better on the whole. (This isn't an attack on your argument, DK, just my attempt to be fair.)

And I think that the cover ups and protections were abhorable and inexcusable. My point was that the media does NOT turn a blind eye to scandals...

I don't think the Media believe it to be their job to "support" power structures, religious or otherwise. Rather it is their job to shine light on the tendancy of powerful bureaucracies to hide their transgressions.

Frankly, although all child molestation is horrible, I'm not as shocked that a few priests are molesters as I am by the way the church hierarchy in so many places enables the molestations and shielded the molesters from punishment. I'm just an outsider. Surely members of the Church are even more disturbed than I!

 

[Nova]

I can name one other service profession - I have reliable knowledge of molestations within school boards, in which 1. the victim was paid off, 2. the police are able to do nothing without a victim pressing charges and 3. the perpetrators continue to teach and rise up through the systems.

That's an incident (and entirely reprehensible). Not quite the same thing as the broad ranging cover ups that have now been documented for the Church.

Notice how many stories have been in the press in recent years about teachers having sexual relationships with their students? Is this a brand new phenomenon?

Hardly. Nor is punishing the perpetrators. What we have not heard so much about is the transferring of school teachers from system to system with the active knowledge and assistance of school boards.

As a very strongly active member of the Catholic church, and not just someone slinging mud from the sidelines because I "think" I have a clue what the Catholic church is all about...

Was this directed at me? I think I've been very careful to acknowledge the limits of my experience; I've also been quite careful to mention the many good things done by the Church and the Catholics I know.

I have seen the pendulum swing the other way - even the slightest hint of wrongdoing, whether substantiated or not, can result in perfectly good priest being put out to pasture, just in case, so the church cannot be accused of hushing it up.

That does tend to happen after a scandal, unfortunately for the individuals unfairly treated. But how is anyone to know that the molestations and cover ups are in the past? With an institution that has been so devoted to secrecy, how is anyone to know that 20 years from now we won't be hearing about a rash of molestations happening right now? (This last remark is a serious question and in no way an endorsement of the conspiracy imagined in DVC. As I've said, DVC is not a clever book.)

 

[BarnGoddess]

I do believe that Christ appointed St. Peter as the Bishop of Rome, of course, which is why I converted, in part, from the UCC (But as I said earlier, I don't think we're the only ones going to heaven, lol.). But when speaking to members of other denominations or religions, they seem to believe that the person (Martin Luther, for example, or Mohammed) who "founded" their faith was led by the Holy Spirit or God to do so, so they are therefore non completely "man-made."

And I would bet your very fundamentalist friend would say I am going to Hell and that the Pope is the Antichrist, lol. (I've heard both a few times, lol.)

The church that is both Catholic and Lutheran is a new one on me. Interesting!

I believe I can answer this. Martin Luther and Henry VIII both split from the ROMAN Catholic Church. I'm not sure about Martin Luther, but Henry VIII had problems with his demand for a divorce as well as what he perceived was undo interference into his authority as King of England. However, both the Luthern and the Church of England kept much of the liturgy of the service intact. The Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed are the same, but clergy can marry, and they do not pray through Mary or have Saints intercede. Now as to the names. Catholic means universal...... As an Episcopalian, I was taught that. The difference in the Anglican and Luthern offshoots, is between Catholic as meaning universal and Roman Catholic as the church labeled as such in Rome. So it is proper for the Lutheran Church to "be" Catholic.

BTW, the word Episcopal means "having bishops".

Hope that answers a little.

 

[Details]

Reporting a crime is fine, but showing a religion's major figure in a disrespectful way is not a positive thing. And given the percentages, I think the media more than blew the pedophile priest story out of proportion. You would likely find a similar number of incidences in other lines of service professions, since pedophiles seek those positions out. Even worse, the media made it sound like the doctrine of celebacy caused it, which is insane, of course. :bang:

They hid the story for a long time. They didn't report on the coverup until forced to (that's what is very different from other lines of service professions - you think a single school district with a history of hiding and protecting and keeping known pedophile teachers would have gotten such tender and gentle media attention? Even remotely?).

Why should a religion be immune to questions, even if those who believe consider it to be showing a religion's major figure in a 'disrespectful' way? There've been lots of questions about Mormon leaders, not to mention other religions that people believe in very deeply, like the Koresh followers, etc. Anything can be wrong, everything should be open to being questioned, rationally. Not that this movie does that - it shows the church (not Jesus) in a bad light, as having changed Jesus's religion into what they wanted by changing his story, and selecting which texts made it into the Bible (which seems to be at least plausible, with the Dead Sea Scrolls and a bunch of other info).

 

[Details]

Oh - about the 'slinging mud from the sidelines' bit - I was raised Catholic. My mom is still Catholic (and far more deeply disturbed than I am - she's giving serious thought to leaving the church - something that I would have never thought even remotely possible). My grandparents are deeply, deeply Catholic, quite active in the church, and furious with the church for what they did, and what they did not do.

They're not mad at the media - other than that it took them so long to report on it, and allowed the corruption to continue to hide in the church, when they could have reported it earlier.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

The Catholic church is big business. Of course they're going to want to publicize what helps them and bury what doesn't.

 

[Marthatex]

When business begins to trump the spiritual aspect of a Church, that's when I think they fall.

I love my little Methodist church; by the way it's the same one George W. and Laura attended before he began to cater to religious extremists.

 

[Dark Knight]

Not that this movie does that - it shows the church (not Jesus) in a bad light, as having changed Jesus's religion into what they wanted by changing his story, and selecting which texts made it into the Bible (which seems to be at least plausible, with the Dead Sea Scrolls and a bunch of other info).

It's never been a secret that the Bishops of the Catholic church (the early Christian church) in the 4th century chose what books and letters made up the New Testament. I'm not sure where Protestants think the New Testament came from, lol, but there was only one church then that made those decisions, and the Roman Catholic church has never denied it, and, in fact, talks about those meetings quite frequently. But, it is trusted that the council of Bishops was led by the Holy Spirit to decide what books were deemed God-Inspired and which ones were not. So the fact that there are some books that didn't make the New Testament should not be a shock to any Catholic. Not all were viewed as divinely guided, obviously. Ones like the Judas book, etc. were written even later and really have little relevence. Many writings that did not make the NT are still used by the Catholic Church for it's doctrines, such as transubstantiation, which written manuscripts show was practiced at the time of the Apostles at their first services, for example. So, I don't see any 'scandal' in any of these "revelations," lol.

 

[Dark Knight]

The Catholic church is big business. Of course they're going to want to publicize what helps them and bury what doesn't.

If we were big business, we would make a lot more money, lol! The Vatican is often in the red due to money donated to humanitarian issues, etc. They don't even teach us that tithing is literally 10% (I disagree) or that it has to even be money, it can be time, alms, etc. Otherwise we'd probably give a LOT more than we do in the offering plate. But they don't really push us for money like people think they do. (There are some individual exceptions, unfortunately, as with everything. I mean on the whole.)

 

[windovervocalcords]

If we were big business, we would make a lot more money, lol! The Vatican is often in the red due to money donated to humanitarian issues, etc. They don't even teach us that tithing is literally 10% (I disagree) or that it has to even be money, it can be time, alms, etc. Otherwise we'd probably give a LOT more than we do in the offering plate. But they don't really push us for money like people think they do. (There are some individual exceptions, unfortunately, as with everything. I mean on the whole.)

No offense DK, but relative to many other faiths, the Catholic Church has massive assets.

 

[Nova]

No offense DK, but relative to many other faiths, the Catholic Church has massive assets.

And, to be fair, does a lot of good with those assets. I hope none of us denies that.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

If we were big business, we would make a lot more money, lol! The Vatican is often in the red due to money donated to humanitarian issues, etc. They don't even teach us that tithing is literally 10% (I disagree) or that it has to even be money, it can be time, alms, etc. Otherwise we'd probably give a LOT more than we do in the offering plate. But they don't really push us for money like people think they do. (There are some individual exceptions, unfortunately, as with everything. I mean on the whole.)

DK, I assure you that the accountants and attorneys of the Catholic churches treat their monies the same as any accountants and attorneys of any other business. While I have absolutely NO DOUBTS whatever that the church donates hundreds of millions of dollars to worthy causes, let's not forget that they're also paying hundreds of millions of dollars in damages to the children molested by priests. Had the church acted sooner in putting a stop to those molestations, the church would have even more money to donate to worthy causes.

 

[Marthatex]

MMM. Does he have a plasma TV? What are they doing with all that wealth?

I will say that our Catholic hospital is one of the best here.