Vatican calling for Boycott of Da Vinci Code

  • #181
Details said:
They have a ton of money, offices and employees throughout the world - I don't think calling them a big business is incorrect. They're bigger than a lot of other businesses, including many multinationals. And, sadly, sometimes they are overconcerned with negative PR and underconcerned with correcting the actions that lead to negative PR, just like any other business.

Their intentions are good, most of their actions are good - but that's not unknown in businesses either.
Sorry, having money, offices and employees all over the world does not make you a big business, it makes you a big organization. You don't consider the Red Cross to be big business, do you? They also have money, offices and employees all over the world.

In my opinion, business means "commercial venture", which the Catholic Church is not.

imho
 
  • #182
Yep, Red Cross is big business. Planned Parenthood is big business. United Way is big business. They all work hard to get money, to do their business. Just because it's motivated by altrusim doesn't make it not business. Marketing people, public relations, varying campaigns to bring in the dollars, so they can use them for what they consider important - it's all there.

And that money and size does give them power, just like any other business.
 
  • #183
sandraladeda said:
To clarify - not an incident, but 5 incidents that I know of within one board.


Not directed at you, I had just quoted your comment about not seeing such a degree of coverups anywhere but in the Catholic Church (or something to that extent, too lazy to quote it exactly....) From that comment, I then carried on with a thought process directed more at the general lashing out at the Catholic Church by people who, by and large, in my opinion, know little or nothing about the Catholic Church. It's frustrating to see people who are not in the Church, who never have anything to say about the church, and then when they do, it's all negative and based on a very limited grasp of what the Catholic church is all about.

imho

No problem, Sandy. I thought you knew my thoughts on the subject (which are by no means wholely or even largely negative).

That school board of which you speak is just as shocking, surely. I think I said I didn't know of such a systematic cover up of child molestation over such a broad area and long time. Surely we all know of many governmental cover ups of other matters that are just as alarming.
 
  • #184
...collection of priceless art and artifacts has a value beyond belief....

The Catholic Church is "huge business" actually, as are its satellite organizations. Non-profits such as the ones you mention have nowhere near the assets nor the power the Catholic Church has. It's laughable to even make a comparison.

A good book on the subject is The Vatican Billions, by Avro Manhattan...

Here are some excerpts from this book outlining the Vatican's and the CC's overall wealth:

"The Vatican has large investments with the Rothschilds of Britain, France and America, with the Hambros Bank, with the Credit Suisse in London and Zurich. In the United States it has large investments with the Morgan Bank, the Chase-Manhattan Bank, the First National Bank of New York, the Bankers Trust Company, and others. The Vatican has billions of shares in the most powerful international corporations such as Gulf Oil, Shell, General Motors, Bethlehem Steel, General Electric, International Business Machines, T.W.A., etc. At a conservative estimate, these amount to more than 500 million dollars in the U.S.A. alone. "

More:

"In a statement published in connection with a bond prospectus, the Boston archdiocese listed its assets at Six Hundred and Thirty-five Million ($635,891,004), which is 9.9 times its liabilities. This leaves a net worth of Five Hundred and Seventy-one million dollars ($571,704,953). It is not difficult to discover the truly astonishing wealth of the church, once we add the riches of the twenty-eight archdioceses and 122 dioceses of the U.S.A., some of which are even wealthier than that of Boston.

Some idea of the real estate and other forms of wealth controlled by the Catholic church may be gathered by the remark of a member of the New York Catholic Conference, namely 'that his church probably ranks second only to the United States Government in total annual purchase.' Another statement, made by a nationally syndicated Catholic priest, perhaps is even more telling. 'The Catholic church,' he said, 'must be the biggest corporation in the United States. We have a branch office in every neighborhood. Our assets and real estate holdings must exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. And our roster of dues-paying members must be second only to the tax rolls of the United States Government.'

The Catholic church, once all her assets have been put together, is the most formidable stockbroker in the world. The Vatican, independently of each successive pope, has been increasingly orientated towards the U.S. The Wall Street Journal said that the Vatican's financial deals in the U.S. alone were so big that very often it sold or bought gold in lots of a million or more dollars at one time.

The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars."

Ummmmm, any questions? :rolleyes:
 
  • #185
A good book on the subject is The Vatican Billions, by Avro Manhattan
Avro Manhattan was a well-known anti-Catholic. I wouldn't put too much stock in any of his writings. I also noticed that the online version of his book is published by Chick Publications. You can't get any more anti-Catholic than Jack Chick.
 
  • #186
Put me down in the "Yeah, it's a business, but there's nothing necessarily wrong with that" camp.
 
  • #187
It's a business, a tax exempt business, and it's an organization, and its a Church....a mighty big one,,,powerful and politically influential.

Catholic schools, Catholic hospitals, Catholic social service agencies, Catholic missions,,,,etc etc etc....

I'm lost. How did we even get on this particular discussion of business and the Church? Wasn't this thread about the Vatican's reaction to Da Vinci Code?

lol it has now morphed into the "all things good, bad and ugly about the Catholic Church!"

How our mind's do meander.....(mine included)
 
  • #188
sandraladeda said:
The Catholic Church is big business?

The only "big business" I see going on is the business of supporting Catholics in their faith, offering a multitude of ministries, from youth groups (4 different groups in my parish), educational opportunities for people wanting to learn more about the faith (bible studies, Alpha courses), grief support, funeral reception, visiting the sick and shut-ins, supporting new immigrants through various programs including ESL, feeding and housing the homeless, addiction support such as AA, job search assistance, marriage preparation, programs for seniors, etc. All this is done, I might add, on a responsibly administered shoestring budget.

Does the Catholic Church have assets? Of course they do. They would be irresponsible not to take the financial assets they have and invest them wisely. But big business? Hardly....

imo


Hey, I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. They've got a LOT of financial responsibilities and it would be irresponsible if they didn't know how to handle those. But to try and pretend that they have no financial stake in the world is just wrong. They've got investments just like other "big businesses" do. They've got accountants, etc. Its just a term.
 
  • #189
sandraladeda said:
Sorry, having money, offices and employees all over the world does not make you a big business, it makes you a big organization. You don't consider the Red Cross to be big business, do you? They also have money, offices and employees all over the world.

In my opinion, business means "commercial venture", which the Catholic Church is not.

imho


Yes, the Red Cross can be defined as a "big business."
 
  • #190
sandraladeda said:
Sorry, having money, offices and employees all over the world does not make you a big business, it makes you a big organization. You don't consider the Red Cross to be big business, do you? They also have money, offices and employees all over the world.

In my opinion, business means "commercial venture", which the Catholic Church is not.

imho
I disagree, The Catholic Church most certainly is a commercial venture.
If one were to view over the last several hundred years the politics and conquests made and endorced by the Vatican I don't think it could be disputed that it is in fact a commercial venture.
 
  • #191
....which statements are wrong? The Catholic church itself admits it has these holdings...

It's not so much the amounts, as what's been done with large sums of money that goes TOTALLY against the grain of Christianity, let alone ethical behavior...

As far as the CC's money connections vis a vis the DaVinci Code....It is very cultlike, IMO, for a supposedly mainstream church to pressure its members to not see a film, read a book, or enjoy some other type of art piece because of the Church's particular view on that subject...

It the Church were proverbially "comfortable with itself", which it obviously is NOT, it would not mind what it's members saw or read, and would view such experiences as "educational". The only other groups I know that are heavily into censorship, banning art and freedom of speech/expression are the Nazis, white supremacist-types of organizations, and fundamentalist Christian, Jewish and Islamic groups....See my point?

One of the most valuable ways for people to form educated and informed opinions about something is to read/watch/see all sides of an issue in order to make an informed decision for themselves. This is why I read all kinds of things, even political columns, etc. by those diametrically opposed to my viewpoints.

Any group trying to censor education is very dangerous indeed....

Truthfully, I don't think it's just the protrayal of Jesus that is upsetting the Church. I'll bet you they are equally upset about the portral of Opus Dei, and the Church's dalliances with corrpution, which probably make them extremely uncomfortable due to the amount of accuracy, JMO...

I am Eastern Orthodox, BTW...I am not against any mainstream religion. However, I think that each mainstream religion needs to address its foibles and failings in an open and honest way...(and when that happens pigs will not only fly, but will be certified kosher and halal, as well! :angel: )
 
  • #192
cappuccina said:
....which statements are wrong? The Catholic church itself admits it has these holdings...

It's not so much the amounts, as what's been done with large sums of money that goes TOTALLY against the grain of Christianity, let alone ethical behavior...

As far as the CC's money connections vis a vis the DaVinci Code....It is very cultlike, IMO, for a supposedly mainstream church to pressure its members to not see a film, read a book, or enjoy some other type of art piece because of the Church's particular view on that subject...

It the Church were proverbially "comfortable with itself", which it obviously is NOT, it would not mind what it's members saw or read, and would view such experiences as "educational". The only other groups I know that are heavily into censorship, banning art and freedom of speech/expression are the Nazis, white supremacist-types of organizations, and fundamentalist Christian, Jewish and Islamic groups....See my point?

One of the most valuable ways for people to form educated and informed opinions about something is to read/watch/see all sides of an issue in order to make an informed decision for themselves. This is why I read all kinds of things, even political columns, etc. by those diametrically opposed to my viewpoints.

Any group trying to censor education is very dangerous indeed....

Truthfully, I don't think it's just the protrayal of Jesus that is upsetting the Church. I'll bet you they are equally upset about the portral of Opus Dei, and the Church's dalliances with corrpution, which probably make them extremely uncomfortable due to the amount of accuracy, JMO...

I am Eastern Orthodox, BTW...I am not against any mainstream religion. However, I think that each mainstream religion needs to address its foibles and failings in an open and honest way...(and when that happens pigs will not only fly, but will be certified kosher and halal, as well! :angel: )
Interesting post.

On the other hand, it is normal for those providing spiritual direction to advise followers as to what they feel is unharmful or unharmful.

In other words, "what to take up, what to abandon". Yes?
 
  • #193
The question is why would they feel it harmful?

Are they implying that to think or be knowledgable about what others *may* think is harmful?
 
  • #194
Amraann said:
The question is why would they feel it harmful?

Are they implying that to think or be knowledgable about what others *may* think is harmful?
I think the point some are making is that it is "harmful" to their faith to read a book that claims to be based on fact and expresses views antithetical to Catholic Church teachings.

The History and Discover channels have been producing Da Vinci debunked stories all week about Dan Brown's "facts".

If you are a person of faith, faith is paramount. What furthers faith is encouraged and what causes doubt and loss of faith should be avoided.

Some traditions encourage their followers to ask questions about faith topics for clarification. Some do not. Some faiths teach that doubt is a sin and they discourage the "quesitoning of authority".

Maybe it's even more so for Catholics. Catholics claim the Pope is infallible as representative of the living Christ.

Some Catholics say they were not encouraged to ask questions as children and were taught to take their religious teachings on faith. Some say this was harmful to them to develop a habit of not asking questions or challenging authority.

Some were taught to "examine their conscience" when it came to moral decisions and to make the best decision they are able to and then confess if they mess up.

My feeling is that some Catholics would not be harmed by an alternative fictional account of Christ's life or the Church's history. Some may find it confusing and cause doubt.

Nonetheless, the Pope is "ultimate papa" and if he says no, it would be "no Da Vinci Code for you" or confession is good for the soul.
 
  • #195
cappuccina said:
It the Church were proverbially "comfortable with itself", which it obviously is NOT, it would not mind what it's members saw or read, and would view such experiences as "educational".

That would be true of a group functioning under democratic values, but I believe the Catholic Church has made it clear that it is not a democracy and has no intention of becoming one. But that is probably your point.
 
  • #196
Nova said:
That would be true of a group functioning under democratic values, but I believe the Catholic Church has made it clear that it is not a democracy and has no intention of becoming one. But that is probably your point.
If the Church became a democracy or populist like other churches, it would lose a LOT of it's members. We believe the shepard should lead the sheep, not the other way around. That is another big reason I converted.
 
  • #197
Dark Knight said:
If the Church became a democracy or populist like other churches, it would lose a LOT of it's members. We believe the shepard should lead the sheep, not the other way around. That is another big reason I converted.

I'm sure you're right, DK. (About losing members. Obviously you are right about your own motivations.)
 
  • #198
So anyway, about the topic of this thread. Are Catholics really staying away from this movie? Seems to be making a lot of money. I'm thinking that most Catholics don't really listen to things the church tells them, so not a big chance of most of them listening to this "suggestion"????
 
  • #199
From what I've read, the boycott call isn't all that strong - one bishop or someother higherup in the Catholic church was saying that it's fine to watch, so long as you know it's fiction. Their only beef is with people thinking it's fact.
 
  • #200
Jeana (DP) said:
So anyway, about the topic of this thread. Are Catholics really staying away from this movie? Seems to be making a lot of money. I'm thinking that most Catholics don't really listen to things the church tells them, so not a big chance of most of them listening to this "suggestion"????
About as well as people staying away from the Passion of the Christ, lol! We'll see how the movie does the next couple of weeks. It wasn't like it was a Papal Encyclical to stay away from it, lol.
 

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