Viable Suspect: Terry Hobbs - #2

[Graznik]

Cheers, Userid!
He makes that statement on page 14 of the report. That's where he clearly states he was out in the woods by 6 or 6:30 PM with DJ and that there were plenty of others out there too, on four wheelers and what not. But yeah, Jivepuppi is brilliant.

Yes, but once the sun was up it would prove a great deal riskier to move the bodies to the dumpsite. Although, as I've stated in the past, whoever did this has gotten away with it and any which way you look at it must have had a great deal of "luck".

Okay, so we've got the many OBs and TC. Have you got any thoughts in regards to motive?

 

[Userid]

Cheers, Userid!
He makes that statement on page 14 of the report. That's where he clearly states he was out in the woods by 6 or 6:30 PM with DJ and that there were plenty of others out there too, on four wheelers and what not. But yeah, Jivepuppi is brilliant.

Yes, but once the sun was up it would prove a great deal riskier to move the bodies to the dumpsite. Although, as I've stated in the past, whoever did this has gotten away with it and any which way you look at it must have had a great deal of "luck".

Okay, so we've got the many OBs and TC. Have you got any thoughts in regards to motive?

Ahh, the first page just after I stopped reading.....of course! I see it now, obviously, thank you!

If reports on TC are true, he liked to play with young children (too young, compared to his age at the time), tortured animals as a kid, and was into self-mutilation. Torturing animals is always a catalyst for future murderers (Jeffrey Dahmer, to name one of the top of my head). So the motive here would basically be his desire to act on these impulses and take them to the next level, so to speak.

OB's motive can be anything really. The victims were all friends with OB Jr.'s son; both OB families knew the victims well. You can pretty much assign the same motive that many do about other suspects in this case: the victims saw something they shouldn't have, perhaps a molestation occurring, etc. OB Jr.'s neighbor, according to jivepuppi, stated that he was involved in "an abuse case and some type of drug cases," in addition to 3 suits filed by her (source: http://www.jivepuppi.com/jivepuppi_obs.html). OB Jr. is also the only person who both saw the children that day and the only one to imply that they were running away and in a hurry -- not to mention, the only one that said they were all wearing different clothing (shorts) and all had green backpacks on.

 

[bessie]

Continued from the previous thread:
[h=1]Viable suspect: Terry Hobbs[/h]

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Just to add to the previous discussion about TOD, as another poster opined, I, too, believe that the boys were attacked around 7 pm in the woods, that their "bodies" (the killer believed them to be dead) were secreted somewhere in the woods and that they succumbed to their wounds (or at least CB did) in the wee hours of the morning, and that, very close to the time that CB died, the "bodies" were placed in the discovery ditch where MM and SB drowned. This would mean that the killer had to know what was going on with the searching. I, too, agree that, with the death of a child (especially one this young), the most likely killer would be a family member or a very close family friend. Although the OB's and TC are interesting suspects, I don't see them as having a sufficient motive. I could be wrong, however, and would not rule them out.

 

[Graznik]

Ahh, the first page just after I stopped reading.....of course! I see it now, obviously, thank you!

If reports on TC are true, he liked to play with young children (too young, compared to his age at the time), tortured animals as a kid, and was into self-mutilation. Torturing animals is always a catalyst for future murderers (Jeffrey Dahmer, to name one of the top of my head). So the motive here would basically be his desire to act on these impulses and take them to the next level, so to speak.

OB's motive can be anything really. The victims were all friends with OB Jr.'s son; both OB families knew the victims well. You can pretty much assign the same motive that many do about other suspects in this case: the victims saw something they shouldn't have, perhaps a molestation occurring, etc. OB Jr.'s neighbor, according to jivepuppi, stated that he was involved in "an abuse case and some type of drug cases," in addition to 3 suits filed by her (source: http://www.jivepuppi.com/jivepuppi_obs.html). OB Jr. is also the only person who both saw the children that day and the only one to imply that they were running away and in a hurry -- not to mention, the only one that said they were all wearing different clothing (shorts) and all had green backpacks on.

Haha, well of course! Admittedly, it took me a couple of reads to find it too.

Interesting, both about TC and the OBs. There seems to be an abundance of "good" perps in this case. I don't necessarily think there has to be a clear motive because the crime in and of itself is so senseless, but what drove a possible perp has to be somewhat established.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

As is always the case, some people don't need a "motive" to murder. Although that could be the case here, I lean more toward a drug-induced crime of rage against one boy, leading to eliminating witnesses to the deed. That's why TH remains my primary suspect. I have other possibilities, however, who could be the murderer or could have simply helped in the clean-up/cover-up. I just hope that some day (sooner rather than later) the truth is revealed. Maybe when Judge Stidham's book is released we will get some new "inside" information. Hope springs eternal. . .

 

[zencompass]

The main reason why I believe T.H. is a viable suspect is that he demonstrated narcissistic rage behavior for years.

Jeffrey Macdonald shared this same behavior when he murdered his family by beating them to death.

T.H. had the narcissistic rage behavior and the opportunity. There is a great possibility that S.B. returned home, ate the
green beans (which accounts for the green substance found in his body). The shed and junkyard behind T.H.'s
house could have housed something that made the grid pattern on S.B.'s leg. None of these areas were ever searched.

T.H. never phoned his wife to tell her that Stevie never came home. why not? He needed time to dispose of the bodies.

There was talk of the Hobbs family secret. Secrets do get out. Eventually.

 

[Graznik]

Exactly Zen. He has demonstrated violent behaviour on several occasions (and there are actual police reports to prove it) and do fall within what could be called narcissistic rage. Somebody like that, regardless of who that person may or may not be, wouldn't need a motive. Instead, the pattern of violence and rage would provide enough reason. If said person occasionally or regularly used drugs like meth or cocaine it would only further exacerbate the situation.

 

[Userid]

What are the examples of the narcissistic rage? Is it the shooting incident? That was in self-defense against PH's brother in law. Did he even serve any prison time for that?

And doesn't JMB exhibit these same tendencies?

I just feel like, if TH did commit these crimes, he wouldn't have been able to hide it from PH, her father, and every person he came across that night. You can't just murder three kids out of the blue, and not show any signs that you just went through that sort of thing -- the anxiety alone would have been through the roof.

That's what makes this case so difficult. We don't want to convict WM3 based on circumstantial evidence, yet we want to convict TH on circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence is pretty much all we have on every suspect in this case.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Narcissistic rage is more a description of the type of "rage" we're confronted with in the case of TH, the emphasis being on the source rather than the outcome. So the shooting incident could also be placed in this category. IIRC, the verdict was "aggravated assault" on Hicks and "assault" on PH, he was fined and placed on probation. JMB is a complete different cup of tea.

Userid wrote

1. I just feel like, if TH did commit these crimes, he wouldn't have been able to hide it from PH, her father, and every person he came across that night. You can't just murder three kids out of the blue, and not show any signs that you just went through that sort of thing -- the anxiety alone would have been through the roof.

2. That's what makes this case so difficult. We don't want to convict WM3 based on circumstantial evidence, yet we want to convict TH on circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence is pretty much all we have on every suspect in this case

Point 1:

Please read the the items concerning Malignant Narcissism.
Read all depositions / statements by TH and family members, look at the videos, the constant source(s) of "narcissistic" rage are quite visible for the (trained) eye. One of the major problems as described, MN are so incredibly good at doing exactly what you described.

Point 2:

Who wants to convict TH on circumstantial evidence ? Most posters I've come across want TH investigated, not convicted. If investigation concludes that there is enough evidence to make a case, then he should be given a fair trial, something that the WM3 did not get.

IMO, this is the description that fits TH:

Malignant Narcissism. This “hypothetical “personality disorder is not listed in the DSM but has been used by some of the greatest thinkers in the field for many years. It may offer the best explanation.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...02/malignant-narcissism-and-the-murder-parent

Malignant Narcissists will go to great lengths to achieve their aim. They can be intelligent, high functioning (hold an important job for example) soft-spoken, charming, tearful/seemingly emotional, gracious, well mannered, kind and have the ability to form relationships. They may lie, falsely accuse, dramatize, smear, cheat, steal, manipulate, accuse, blame or twist to get what they want and feel justified in doing so. Because they are entitled, egocentric and desperate, they do not experience it as wrong. They are determined to gratify their wishes and furious if thwarted. Their desire can be so consuming that there is little comprehension of, respect for or ability to empathize with the other. They lack guilt or remorse and tend to feel or pronounce that it is they who have been mistreated. They can be of any gender, race or social class.

The combination of subtle paranoia, lack of conscience and sadism in Malignant Narcissists renders these individuals scary, dangerous, and ruthless. Because they have not internalized the capacity for restraint, revenge for imagined assaults can be cruel, excessive and unfathomable. Their wish to humiliate and destroy can be extreme.

The brutality can be directed at a specific person and hidden from others. They may torment someone in private and claim that it is the other way around, as masters of this classic form of “projection.” They pinpoint those with gullibility and goodness who might trust too much or be incapable of fighting back with similar measures. For many people, it is not psychologically possible to return the lies, manipulations, deceit, and emotional violence. A modicum of mental health and basic decency preclude this option. Unfortunately, if the Malignant Narcissist is an effective storyteller, unknowing, well meaning others will support his or her destructive actions, and contribute to a horrid, wrenching mess.

Being the target of such a person can be terrifying. Psychologist Erich Fromm who invented the term Malignant Narcissist described it as a “severe pathology, the quintessence of evil and the root of the most vicious destructiveness and inhumanity.” We might ascribe this to terrorists, dictators or sadistic historical figures but it can be one, even two people in one family who cause a lifetime of heartache. As one personality disorders expert told me while I was in training, “These people terrorize their families.”

This is also a good description:

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7049.0;wap2

Your pedophile and child molester are usually a malignant narcissist. And, like all narcissists, they are con artists who get away with it.

For, these spiders commit the perfect crime — the one so incredible nobody believes it. Because it's wanton, bizarrely evil, and targets the last people you'd think the narcissist would want to hurt. So, nobody believes Angelface would do such a thing.

Thus people with NPD enmesh their prey in a web that is a Catch-22: Nobody will believe the victim. In fact, a narcissist often taunts the victim by daring him or her to try to get anyone to believe their complaint.

Indeed, when a victim does report the bizarre brand of unprovoked abuse narcissists dish out, she is sorry. Minds and ears slam shut in her face, because, as she feared, she is assumed to be the crazy one. Unless there is a dead body, rape kit, or X-ray evidence that cannot be ignored, even police dismiss the complaint with a "Now why would anyone do that?"

Here is a description by someone who experienced this sort of terror, I have my own experiences, and many people have described similar ongoings in their families.

https://house-of-mirrors.blogspot.de/2013/04/malignant-narcissists-are-homicidal_24.html

Every motivation of the malignant narcissist is about killing life and liveliness. There is nothing life giving or life enhancing about them. Even if a MN births a life, she just uses it as a host to parasitize. And although these homicidal monsters are not designated criminals, they are in fact worse because they elect to switch off morality in their own home: the place where they know they can get away with their evil deeds. And unlike your average criminal their crimes against humanity are not random; they select those near and dear who place their trust in them to systematically murder.

Families governed by malignant narcissist parents have often been referred to as "god's concentration camps." I believe this to be an accurate description. The normal children of these concentration camps are at the mercy of powerful, life destroying tyrants who operate in a secretive and closed environment where they are free to remove themselves from ordinary restraints of human decency. That's why I believe the last "sacred" institution known as family is so dangerous. The "family" structure becomes like shackles that can be taken to injustice, and that's precisely what happens when malignant narcissists are in charge - they get away with murder. Home sweet homicide.

There are too many consistencies to ignore.

 

[Userid]

Okay, I'll keep it simple:

It isn't narcissistic rage to shoot someone who is threatening to hurt you. Over-reaction? Sure. Narcissistic Rage? 100%, absolutely not. There was no "narcissistic blow" in this situation. PH's brother came by to beat the crap of TH, so TH shot him. There is also no "narcissistic rage" in the Mildred French incident itself either. I'd consider that more sex-driven than anything related to narcissism.

All we have, on any known "suspect" in this case, is circumstantial -- and people use this "evidence" in their reasoning to define TH as "the primary suspect." Which is what the WMPD did with the WM3. It was wrong then; it's wrong now.

I don't know TH well enough to make the assertion that he fits that particular "mold" you reference in your post above, and neither does anyone else here in all honesty.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. Isaac Asimov

You're probably right you know!!

 

[Userid]

“[A] quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself, always a laborious business."

(The Record Lie)”
― A.A. Milne, If I May

:crazy:

 

[Justiceseeker35]

Okay, I'll keep it simple:

It isn't narcissistic rage to shoot someone who is threatening to hurt you. Over-reaction? Sure. Narcissistic Rage? 100%, absolutely not. There was no "narcissistic blow" in this situation. PH's brother came by to beat the crap of TH, so TH shot him. There is also no "narcissistic rage" in the Mildred French incident itself either. I'd consider that more sex-driven than anything related to narcissism.

All we have, on any known "suspect" in this case, is circumstantial -- and people use this "evidence" in their reasoning to define TH as "the primary suspect." Which is what the WMPD did with the WM3. It was wrong then; it's wrong now.

I don't know TH well enough to make the assertion that he fits that particular "mold" you reference in your post above, and neither does anyone else here in all honesty.

I hardly think the MF incident was sex driven, she was an elderly. She threatened to "take down his house" by exposing the domestic abuses taking place. I believe he felt the same way about his step son SB who was possibly threatening to tell. If you read the depositions you can see the narcissism in black and white.

 

[Userid]

Really? Didn't he reportedly grab her chest, while trying to shush her, as she was exiting the shower? How isn't that sex-driven?

This happened in 1982 by the way. I don't know MF's age today, but she wasn't "elderly" at that time, and even if she was (which she wasn't), that still doesn't mean it wasn't sex-driven.

What is your source that SB was "threatening to tell"?

Also, I've read the depositions.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I may get pilloried for this, but here goes! One of PH's sisters (I don't think it was Jolynn) said in a deposition or statement that SB had told her that TH was being abusive. This is where we first heard about the whole "cockroach" thing, IIRC. I'll see if I can find it. So, it is logical IMO to conclude that TH could have heard about this, maybe from AH? I don't know, but IMO a "control freak" like TH appears to be would find out things like that - somehow.

ETA: Here is a link that discusses SB and one aunt and confiding about TH's abuses. It also describes (paragraph 17) an incident she witnessed involving sexual abuse of AH.

 

[Userid]

I'll echo the question that Amanda herself asks in one of the films: if this really was true, why in God's name wouldn't the aunt come forward any sooner? Answer me that one question, with a straight face, and I will accept this deposition as meaningful -- because I've honestly racked my brain a thousand times over trying to find a reason why the aunt wouldn't come forward any sooner, and it is simply impossible.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I would hope that, had I been the aunt, I would have come forward. However, I don't know what I would have done in the identical situation. Initially, of course, SB had begged her not to tell. However, after he died, I would have thought that she would have come forward. The only reason that makes any sense to me is fear of the real killer. If my suspicions of who that person is are true, then fear of him would be justified. Plus, her sister stayed married to him for something like ten years. Maybe she feared that he would kill her sister if she told. He killed her brother, you know. Anyway, that's the only reasoning that makes sense to me!

 

[Userid]

Well, I do know. I would come forward, because my family member is in danger from a [link removed]. PH's side of the family had more than enough to protect her (JH and PH's brother to name just two). I particularly would have come forward, if the child's sibling had just been murdered and the killers were yet to have been caught, because it would have been extremely pertinent information at the time.

I'm sorry, but this isn't rocket science. She didn't come forward at the time with the molestation claim, and she didn't come forward at the time with laundry claim, because they're both BS and because PH just broke up with TH relatively recent to when actually did decide to come out with these claims. This isn't a coincidence.

 

[dogmatica]

I find it comical that Echol's mental health record of psychosis, violence and homicidal tendencies is completely swept under the rug by supporters, but rumors (way after the fact) of Hobb's alleged molestation is the smoking gun that proves he is the "real killer".