WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #1

[leftcoast]

j2 thanks j2. Yes, in the book, Calame and Theisen accuse Mccoy's wife of ripping off part of the loot after Mccoy and his buddy robbed a bank (this is after Mccoy escaped from jail). I guess they couldn't prove it. In the book, they tell you how mccoy pulled off his hijacking, and his wife actually assisted him by driving him to the airport, and lying to friends and the police of his whereabouts. Mccoy was actually stupid enough to hide the 500,000 in his basement, and actually spent some of the ransom at a convenience store after the jump. Talk about stupid.


left

 

[j2mirish]

j2 thanks j2. Yes, in the book, Calame and Theisen accuse Mccoy's wife of ripping off part of the loot after Mccoy and his buddy robbed a bank (this is after Mccoy escaped from jail). I guess they couldn't prove it. In the book, they tell you how mccoy pulled off his hijacking, and his wife actually assisted him by driving him to the airport, and lying to friends and the police of his whereabouts. Mccoy was actually stupid enough to hide the 500,000 in his basement, and actually spent some of the ransom at a convenience store after the jump. Talk about stupid.


left

:doh: I hear ya--- in his basement? :doh:

 

[leftcoast]

Scandi: It is true that none of the twenty dollar bills have been found in circulation. However, if Cooper laundered the money on the east coast or in a foreign country, the odds are finding one of the Cooper twenties is remote. Especially if he waited six months or so to launder the money. I couldn't find a quote on the number of twenties in circulation, but, I estimate the number of twenty dollar bills to be approximately 7 to 8 billion today, and most likely 5 or 6 billion in 1971. Hence, each time a twenty dollar bill was examined in 1972 for Cooper's loot, there would be a 1 in 500,000 chance of it being from the Cooper heist.

In addition, the bills are replaced by the Fed Reserve every 2 years as they wear out due to use. Also, the twenties are not lasered, or catalogued before they are destroyed by the fed and replaced by new twenties. They are simply replaced. Plus, the only people looking for those twenties were some tellers and a few citizens, primarily in the northwest, just after the heist. Had cooper laundered those twenties in a foreign country or east coast, I personally believe the chances of finding one of those twenties to be extremely remote.

In the Lindbergh case, they actually caught one of the kidnappers because he used one of the bills given in the ransom. The main reason for this was because the money was spent locally, it was an alert gas station attendant, and the ransom was given in the gold certificates, which were being phased out by the government. In other words, had Cooper been stupid enough to start spending the money in the Portland or Seattle area just after the heist, I do believe one of the twenties would have been found. But, it is my belief that any other scenario would not result in finding the twenties in circulation.



left

 

[scandi]

Hi Leftcoast, I went back today to listen to your radio interview and the same thing happens which is nothing! My little Z/A icon down on the bottom right of my screen goes like crazy like it is working to locate it, and then it just stops. On Monday the cumputer shop will be open I'm sure even though it is a holiday, and I'll find out whats wrong. It is something with an adjustment in my computer. I watch videos and have excellent sound, so it's not that.

I spent hours today reading links on the web. Went all the way back to pp 40 something. LOL The one article that sticks in my brain was about the guy to said he was sure he met DB before he hijacked the plane.

It was going so good, and I was a believing him and all, and then suddenly it went from possible to huh! when he said he was put in a mental ward!~ Caraaaaaaaazy but worth a quick read:

"I am currently writing a book which will be titled
"The Hi-jacked Soul"
by DB Cooper

In all probability I met the very famous individual, AKA D.B. Cooper, in the fall of 1969. Our meeting wasn't under the best of circumstances as I was being held, while waiting for my sentence hearing for some minor drug charges. We had many hushed conversations during the time we spent together in the county jail. One day he asked, "Doug, will you stand in my line-up," which I agreed to. Later that evening he stated, "I want to comb your hair and pick out the clothes you're to wear." He choose clothes that generally matched the ones he wore the day he pulled the armed robbery, which he was being charged for. He asked me the day before the lineup, "Please act nervous, it will throw the witness off." I foolishly did as requested, which was not in my best interests! Mr. Cooper stated to me after we were returned to the cell, 'I am definitely off these charges, thank you!" I asked, "What makes you think that?" He stated, "Doug, I could tell from the pissed look on the cops faces when they looked at us, as we walked by!" He was not charged and shortly thereafter was extradited to one of the two states, waiting to charge him for other crimes. Later that week Mr. Cooper whispered to me, "I think I can get away with hijacking a plane and parachuting out. . . ."

http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/putors/ Scandi

 

[leftcoast]

Hi Scandi, I did read some of that story. I didn't know that suspects are allowed to determine who is allowed to participate in their lineup. I always thought that was determined by LE.

I'll tell you, nothing surprises me with this case. It seems like everyone has a story, and when you check out their stories, they start to fall apart. Anyway, I will share one thing that I learned while researching this case.

We all know that Cooper was wearing a disguise, with the dark sunglasses, dark suit, long raincoat, possible makeup, and dyed hair/wig. Because, like a bank robber, trying to conceal his real identity is vital to the success of his crime. What I am telling you is 100% true, although, to this day, I still can't believe I heard it. Anyway, I had an FBI agent who worked this case, argue with me that he didn't think Cooper was wearing sunglasses as part of a disguise. He argued that maybe Cooper had a problem with "sensitive eyes" and had to wear dark glasses to save his vision. I countered that it was a dark, rainy, nasty day, and that glasses were not necessary at all, especially since it gets dark at 4:30pm, here in Oregon in the fall. HE disagreed.

Now, does anyone have any doubts as to why this case is still unsolved?

left

 

[scandi]

Good Morning Leftcoast, Good to see you!

That is amazing, and if it is the agent I know you had a conversation with, it is double amazing! lol

Could there be a bit of an agenda there to save face since they were not able to crack the case? I know you two must have a plan, and am wondering how you are going to find the right agent with a fresh mind to now put this case to rest.

It being the only unsolved air piracy case in the United States, wouldn't you think they would want to put it to rest successfully? I was thinking that there is one thing in this country that does get things done, and that is the media. CBS, I don't know what cable channel that is affiliated with, but if they splashed it across America, the nation would be riveted. The only thing is you don't want to spook this man, so there would have to be enough probable cause to detain him first, right?

Just thinking aloud.

 

[leftcoast]

Hey Scandi, Yes, it is the same agent as mentioned earlier. When I mentioned who I thought Cooper is with him, he gave me a look of "who are you to question me". Then, he kind of simmered down. I purposely waited until the end of our conversation until I sprung upon him who I thought was in fact cooper. I still like the guy, and he really is the nicest man in the world. I just think he passed on the wrong guy. I did get him to admit that my suspect may have been involved in the crime, ie, planning of the crime. But, he was steadfast that there is no way Cooper could have jumped at 8:13 and made a call at 10:00pm.

As for solving the case, I really thought that would take precedence over ego's, but, I guess I was wrong.

AS for the media, you are right, they are the key to this case. Worse case scenario, this guy sues. What can he sue for? Damages are limited to loss of income and defamation of character. He already ruined his character when he committed armed robbery, and three other convictions for felonies. As for loss of income, the guy is in his mid-70's, hasn't had a legitimate job in 35 years, so, where is the loss of income? Plus, on the stand, I would love to hear this guy explain where he was, under oath, on 11/24/71, and why he would think the FBI would consider him as a suspect? I don't think there is a chance in he_ _ that he would sue the network. Don't forget, his neighbors, gal, kids, etc. have no idea of his criminal past, or that his potential involvement in this crime.

Stay tuned, Scandi, I think the next couple of weeks will be very telling.

left

 

[curious1]

snip...Stay tuned, Scandi, I think the next couple of weeks will be very telling.

left

Stay tuned, to be continued....

NOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

I hate to be continued..............

I want this summed up, solved and wrapped in a neat little bow in 45 mins, just like on my fav crime shows. Thank you very much mister.

 

[scandi]

You bet I'll sty tuned! And good work there BTW.

I think they know it was at 8:13 that he jumped out because they felt a bump {load lightened a bit} and went back and checked to see exactly what time that was. So that is how they believe it was over the Lake Merwin area that he jumped. I sold a little cabin there, like I said, and it is basicly a wooded area with some little cabins set back off the lake. Not many, as they are only in a few areas. They were built way back when the gvnmt developed the area after building the Merwin Dam I believe, and then put a stop so no more cabins could be built. They look just like you would expect if you watched a movie set in the fir-treed area of a lake out in the boonies.

The reason I'm saying this is there is civilization where he landed. He probably knew just where he could call from, a payphone out on the hwy possibly at the Lake Merwin turnoff, or he knew someone who owned one of the cabins. Did they check all the cabins do you know Leftcoast? We have to believe that if he planned everything about the jump so carefully, he had his escape route all planned out as well. I really think that is true!

Well I'm tickled pink things are moving along. Back to work! :banghead:

 

[leftcoast]

Hi Scandi, thanks for the encouragement

Yes, I do believe the Feds and local police checked out all of the cabins in the Lake Merwin area over that Thanksgiving weekend. HOwever, the number one problem with finding Cooper (besides it was an original plan) is that nobody knows for sure the exact time Cooper jumped (8:13pm is the most likely), nor does anyone know the exact path of the jet, or where the jet was at exactly 8:13pm. Given these variables, the search area was immense. Think about it, that jet was traveling 3 1/2 miles per minute. If there estimate was off by 2 minutes, that is seven miles. Talk about a needle in a haystack. Plus, the search for Cooper, was mainly to look for a dead body or parachute. The sheriff, Eugene Cotten, said he was convinced that Cooper was not in the area where he searched. In other words, either Cooper jumped in a different area, or Cooper simply escaped. Otherwise, Cotten believes that cooper would have been found during the search, had he died during the jump.

Call me stubborn, but, I would not rule out the possibility that Cooper jumped in the area between Vancouver Lake and the Columbia river. It is a very quiet area, with a lot of swampland, farmland, etc. with very little population. pLus, it is very close to where the money was found. However, I still think the area just south of Lake Merwin is probably more likely.

Either way, cooper was within walking distance to civilization. IMO

left.

 

[scandi]

Hi Leftcoast, I just saw you are here. LOL Hadn't seen your post yet, but what you say is so logical. I think a lot of the time we find out after studying a crime that simplicity rules, and usually is the way things have happened. An old addage, but sometimes it really speaks.

I know the Vancouver Lake area real well. My second husband grew up in Vancouver and was a catfish maniac. Many were the days and nights we fished for catfish there, and the area is as you say, somewhat swampy in areas, few homes, pretty flat with not a whole lot of trees and isolated. If he lived close to there as I think you said, it would be a natural place for him to land if he could control that chute.

He was too organized. His landing had to be just as planned and meticulously laid out, ready and waiting for his arrival. Gives me goosebumps!

If he jumped out by Lake Mervin he had something waiting for him to get back to Vancouver. A car had to be stashed somewhere in an area adjacent to an open area - maybe a big field along that highway. Have you driven out there to look around to get the feel of it.


Well keep us posted. March is coming in with a blaze for me. LOL Lets hope that is a good omen for everything all the way around this March. YaYa


Scandi

 

[leftcoast]

Hey Scandi: Thanks for the continued support. It's nice to have somebody actually cheering for us to have solved this case. Most people think Cooper was a folk hero. If they only new about the crimes he committed after the hijacking, and his lack of remorse.

Adnoid: Thanks for your expertise on this case. AS you can see, I am not a pilot. I have learned all of these terms from working on the case. I actually got the term "vector" from the book that the agent who headed the investigation wrote. He is also a pilot. He either is clueless, or meant to say "victor". Now, I do understand what you are saying. Vector is just a compass reading. Then, is "victor" just a term to designate "V", much like we would say "Charlie" for "c"?

Anyway, I hope you have time to read this thread and I sure would like to hear your thoughts about my suspect. My suspect, who we have been investigating for 6 years, is a private pilot, just like yourself. He had been flying in the Portland area for over 20 years when the hijacking occured.

I do have a few questions: Those "VORS" that you mention for navigational aids. Were they available back in 1971? If so, is it possible for somebody to get a handheld device (say Cooper in the back of the plane) to verify exactly where he was. Correct me if I am wrong , but, isn't the "VOR", a cone type of navigational aid that is placed either on a tower or on the ground? Our suspect actually told us about this device during our last meeting. I told him that jumping right over, or very close to this device would be ideal. He responded that it depended "how close the airliner was to the route, but, that you could be within 3 or 4 miles, east or west of the "VOR". You actually brought up a good point about using a stopwatch. Our suspect actually suggested the same thing.

As for the "Battleground VOR". This could be a huge clue. You see, Cooper is thought to have jumped just south of Lake Merwin. Battleground is just a couple of minutes south of Lake Merwin. In addition, there were two seperate dropzone areas which were used by local skydivers along v-23. I've always thought this was a possibility as well.

Anything you have to add would be appreciated.

left

ps Based upon your knowledge of piloting and navigation, do you think it was possible for Cooper to pinpoint an area in which to jump beforehand, and make it to telephone to call the FBI within two hours after jumping.

I should note that our suspect was basically a professional skydiver, and had over 5,000 jumps as of 1971.

 

[leftcoast]

Ps Just to prove that I am not a total idiot. IF you google, db cooper, crime library, they also use the term "vector 23" as the path of the plane. Can I use that as my defense?


left

 

[leftcoast]

adnoid: Wow, thanks for the great information. I zoomed in on that BTG VOR, what a perfect place to jump. Look at all the flat open land around that area. You can only imagine that area was even less populated back in the 70's.

As for the MALAY VOR, I did see the purple parachute spot. Our suspect has actually jumped at that site. That site is also a good spot, given the close proximity to i-5, but yet it is still out in the country. The only thing, with the timing of the plane, Cooper may still have been on the plane when the plane when over that area.

A side note: Just below the MALAY VOR is Silver Lake. Back in 1979, a hunter found the 1 foot by 1 foot placard which was blown from the aftstairs during the flight. This proved two things, one is that the airliner was basically on v-23, and it also proves if a hunter could find a square foot placard in the middle of the forest, how is it that Cooper can't be found 35 years later. Answer: because he got away.

Thanks for all the information. The more I learn about the route and navigation, the more I am convinced of my theory and suspect. Uneducated people who worked this case, have actually stated that Cooper was an idiot and would have no idea of his whereabouts when he jumped. I think that theory is total crap. That was simply an FBI agent looking for excuses for why he didn't catch the guy. Sure, there wasn't GPS back in the 70's, but the VOR's were just as effective for the purposes of this crime.

thanks again for the help. Anything else you have would be appreciated.

left

ps Looking at the v-23 route, I have no idea why the feds were so interested in the Lake MErwin area. V-23 was at least 8-10 miles west of Lake Merwin, and I can't imagine why the pilot would purposely fly over a dam with a nutcase with a bomb in the back of his plane. I still can't believe that the FBI didn't think that Cooper had some type of escape plan for when he landed. I've said it before, but, it is like a bank robber who forgets to plan his escape route after a bank robbery.

 

[leftcoast]

Adnoid: Thanks for the info.

A few things: I actually went through newspapers from the dates just after the Cooper event, and the papers quoted FBI sources as saying that v-23 was the most common low altitude route from Seattle through the Willamette valley. Since Cooper demaned the plane fly at or below 10,000 feet, would the presence of Mt. St. Helens forbid the use of v-495 (mt st helens was actually over 10,000 feet, until 1980 when it erupted and lost a couple of thousand feet)? or is v-495 west enough of Mt. st.helens?

As for the MALAY fixed point, it appears you are stating that once the airliner reached this point, Captain Scott would be required to make a sharp bank. That is a good point that such a bank would alert Cooper as to his approximate location, given the bank, timing the route, etc. It could also explain why the placard went flying out the back of the plane.

As for why Cooper requested V-23, I do know that Cooper is a private pilot and had access to a small Cessna type of plane in 71. I also know he had a very close relative living in Seattle, so, maybe he was flying up to seattle to visit him/her every so often and hence was used to v-23. We also know that Cooper was able to spot Tacoma from the air while the plane was circling Seattle. So much for it being a rainy, nasty night with zero visibility.

Once again thanks, the additional information is helping.

One small note: I'm not a pilot, but, if I was Captain Scott that night, I sure would have requested that Portland ATC or whomever put me in a position to land in Portland in case of an emergency. I wonder if this had anything to do with the course the plane flew, etc.

We both agree that unless radar reports show the airliner was east of v-23, the search for Cooper was off course. Some of this may have been because LE originally thought the wind was coming from the SW that night, and allowed for drift. It was later learned the wind was actually coming from the SE.

From what I have gathered from this investigation, it appears the investigators never really sat down and thought about the case. Instead, they assumed Cooper was an idiot, and had not done his homework. Obviously, the reverse ended up being true.

thanks

left

Ananoid: Hate to ask, but, is there anyway to figure out the air miles from Sea-tac to the BTG VOR, using v-23? Cooper requested 170 knots, 10,000 feet, and was thought to be on the plane for 40 minutes. Hence, the max, miles he could have traveled would be 133 miles.

 

[scandi]

WOW Adnoid, You are a veritable fountain of expert information. I am impressed! And also am really thankful you found this thread. ;}

Reading thru those last several posts and seeing the vector zoomed all the way in and the MALAY VOR map, I had a question or two.

1} The Silver Lake area where the placard was found. If the wind was coming from the SE, how far would it travel once it left the plane before it hit the ground?

2} At a certain point the captain and crew felt a bump and realized the back stairs had been lowered, right? Was this what they calculated to happen at 8:13?

3} Did the captain then feel the plane move a bit which was interpreted as a 'lightening of the load'? I've read about this but it would take me forever to go find it right now! LOL

4} if they made that sharp bank at the MALAY VOR that takes 10 sec and all planes do this to stay on V-23, when they were exactly due west of Lake Merwin where would that put Cooper if he jumped out at that point considering the wind from the SE at what 100 mph at the point of jump and then having less velocity the closer he got to earth?

5} What is the flying distance from Silver ake where the placard flew out of the plane {stairs down} to where they felt the 'lightening of the load' movement which evidently they thought was in the Lake Merwin area?

Gee, it seems to me just the difference of the direction of the wind would make a big difference in the investigation as to where Cooper would have set foot on the ground. I don't know how it would affect a new investigation now, but I am sure you know LC.

I noticed that the Battleground VOR has a road right to it and it looks as if a lot of cars drive in there and drive around the vector point. Why would they do that? Do you think the BG vector point is where Cooper was aiming for? He could easily have a car waiting there. Did they examine this spot right away to see if there was any evidence he had been there?

Certainly fascinating for a Saturday morning! Scandi

 

[leftcoast]

Distances in nautical miles, speeds in knots, time in minutes:

FROM TO DISTANCE 150kt 170kt
------ ------ -------- ----- -----
SEA MALAY 63.5 0:25 0:22
MALAY BTG 41.1 0:16 0:15

Since they took off from just about where the SEA VORTAC is there would be some time at a lower speed to climb to 10,000 feet. So it looks to me if he was on the plane for 40 minutes AND the plane actually followed V23 he would have jumped somewhere between the turn at MALAY and the BTG VORTAC - and pretty close to BTG.

Adnoid : Thanks for the information. It is amazing to me how the math works out. Assuming the bump the pilots felt at 8:13, I have no question in mind that Cooper knew exactly where he was when he jumped. Very close to the BTG VOR. Certainly southwest of Lake Merwin and definitely north of the Columbia. It wouldn't surprise me if Cooper landed next to that BTG VOR.

I also believe that given the situation, and their uncertainty with the low altitude route, common sense tells you that the pilots most likely kept close to the v-23 route, and finding that placard in 1979 proves this.

It's funny, but, certain people who investigated this crime wanted everyone to believe that Cooper landed in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. Also, Cooper was a fool and died in the forest. Then, $6,000 is found in 1980 along the banks of the Columbia, and now we have the new theory that Cooper either landed in the Columbia and drowned, or Cooper landed injured, made it to the Washougal river, and the water delivered the money packet over 30miles, broke open, and three packets landed on the beach, somehow became buried, and were found in 1980. LOL.

Well, adnoid, thanks for all the good information. The FBI could have used you back in 1971. I just can't believe that somebody calls you after a crime has committed, tells you that they didn't want you to think they were the hijacker, and you don't suspect they were in on the crime, or the hijacker.

Scandi: I think the wind, rain, etc. of that night were not a huge factor in this crime. I think they have been exaggerated over the years, for obvious reasons. Regardless, Cooper would not have pulled his chute until he was 1,000 or 2,000 feet above his target. At this height, he wouldn't have drifted far, and since he was a professional skydiver, this jump was not something he did the first time that night.

left

 

[scandi]

Purely fascinatin', isn't it. Adnoid, thanks for all your help. I actually learned a lot from you today! LOL

I can just hardly wait for something to transpire about the case LC. I can see wqhy he would shoot for the BGD Vector because he probably knew it well fro jumping in the area, and after he pulled his chute, the closer he got to earth wouldn't he see that round white vector point? It looks intricate around the edge, and is maybe not just a round white piece of plastic.

 

[leftcoast]

Yes, I also find it a fascinating case. Rarely, do criminals put so much planning into their crimes. On the other hand, Cooper was fortunate in what transpired after the crime, with the poor witnesses, McCoy duplicating his crime, and a whole lot of tunnel vision.

I think we are wearing down our suspect, and I think we can make a deal with him on this case. Just think about it, living with this all of those years. Wouldn't you want the celebrity of being Cooper, without the prison associated with the crime?


left

 

[birdie]

I was a young adult when this hijacking happened and remember seeing the coverage on TV and reading it in the newspaper. My dad was a commercial pilot at that time and the airline he flew for had their pilots go through hijack training in the last 60s.

I've often thought that DB Cooper was still alive because no body was ever found. If I heard about the money being found in the 80s, I don't remember that. I always thought there was no trace of him or the money.

I'm going to listen to the interview, but wanted to say that I'm so glad I found this thread. I've been reading here since just after Laci went missing, but I rarely post. Reading this thread brought me out of lurkdom. I'll be watching to see what happens with this case in the near future.

Leftcoast, I hope you aren't in any danger if the man starts thinking you're trying to help get him caught. I think since no one was ever caught nor convicted for this crime, that the statute is probably well past. But he might not see it that way.

Thanks to Skandi for bringing Leftcoast here and for him sharing this story.