WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #1

[leftcoast]

It will be most interesting to see how this story comes about, but I just pray for Left and his buddy to have all the acclaim they should have to the story. I think channel 6 will protect them on that.

Scandi

thanks Scandi

Don't worry, nobody is going to take credit for something we did.

We have documented everything, not to mention our tv interview, radio interview, newspaper, etc. I don't see that being an issue, but, it is something we are prepared for, just in case.

Once the story hits the public domain, there is nothing we can do. Its' not our story anymore. However, we will always assure that we get credit for solving the case.

thanks for your continued support.

I will keep you informed

left

 

[scandi]

That is really interesting, Left, and I think he gave you totally the wrong answers. Whatever happened to the Riggers card? He probably took it with him as I don't remember him wearing gloves in the plane. Can't remember.

 

[leftcoast]

That is really interesting, Left, and I think he gave you totally the wrong answers. Whatever happened to the Riggers card? He probably took it with him as I don't remember him wearing gloves in the plane. Can't remember.

All reports indicate Cooper did not wear gloves on the plane.

As for the rigger's card. I would assume that after reading the card, he simply placed the card back in the exterior slot of the chute. One would assume that he read the rigger's card from the chute that he chose to jump with, but, I am just assuming.

the FBI did extensive fingerprint testing on the chutes, and supposedly didn't find anything that we know about. Don't forget, back in the 70's, we didn't have AFIS, so, the FBI would have to get a suspect first, then pull his print card (if he was in the military or had a record), and compare the two.

Since this guy was never a suspect, who knows, they may even have his prints somewhere in the evidence. Possible, but not likely.

Good point.

left

 

[leftcoast]

I'd love to see what leftcoast comes up with on this one.

Hey Adnoid

We did bring up with Mr. Cooper the additional information that we learned from you, regarding the BTG VOR.

Cooper kind of dismissed it, saying, "all you have to do is time the route", "you gave the route, airspeed, and know the distance". While theoretically that is true, everyone knows that electronic devices are much more accurate than timing. Sure, timing will get you within a few miles, but, in this case, you want to land within a mile or so from your vehicle. IMO

Timing a route requires that the pilot got up to speed at a certain rate of time, that he flew the exact speed you requested, and that he was on the exact route. We know in this case that didn't happen. Why, because Cooper couldn't figure out how to lower the aftstairs, and asked for the pilot to slow down, thinking it would help in lowering the stairs. Obviously, this wasn't the main problem. The solution was that weight was needed on the stairs to lower them. Hence, the timing of the route would have been inaccurate due to Cooper's request.

Some type of electronic device, radio signal finder, portable VOR, etc, would give you the exact spot where you are in accordance to where your getaway vehicle is parked, in this case "x' miles from the VOR, or even at the VOR. Of course, a break in the clouds would also help, but, is risky.

Makes me think we hit the jackpot and he is trying to steer us away. Plus, don't forget, he wants everyone to think that Cooper took days to get out of that forest, since he called into the FBI at 10pm. Of course, he doesn't know that we know he called the FBI at 10pm. He thinks that we are idiots and are buying his alibi, which puts him on the ground while Cooper was still in the plane.

How does that saying go, "you can fool some of the people, some of the time, but, you can't fool all of the people, all of the time".

left

 

[leftcoast]

Well, in a sense he's right - it's called dead reckoning, and it works pretty well. The key in this case is that he could ignore the takeoff and climb to altitude (which are relatively difficult to do that way) and assume that the pilot was flying the airspeed he demanded and on course by the time the plane made the 30 degree left turn at MALAY, and start timing from there.

I have read, however, that the pilot felt he was not on course at that point - what does your research show? It's believable - the Victor airways are low-altitude routes, which the pilots would not follow normally. In fact, they may not have had the correct charts for those routes, although they likely would have.

Hey Adnoid:

Good point. Actually, Cooper is the smartest guy I've met (before you, of course) related to aviation, so, he may be right. Plus, along that route are some fantastic visual references, including Mt st helens, i-5, Lake Merwin, and the Lewis River. Of course, assuming, just one break in the clouds.

Thing is, according to the various research, he wasn't able to get the aftstairs down until about 8:03pm, 10 minutes before he jumped. IF that is correct, wouldn't the airplane would have been past the Malay?

However, like I have mentioned before, Cooper grew up in the POrtland area, had been flying for 20 years, and probably had memorized the distances between landmarks. Just like we know memorize distances between landmarks on familar highways, Cooper had equal knowledge of the Portland area.

That is why, in my opinion, that Cooper chose to have that plane divert to Seattle, its' original destination, and he jumped just north of Portland, an area that he knew like the back of his hand.

My only point was that if he pulled this off solo, which I believe he did, if that pilot was off course, say 2 or 3 miles, and he couldn't see the ground, how was he planning on getting to his vehicle, and what if he landed close to houses, etc.

Actually, you are helping me prove that the jump was not as difficult as everyone believes it was. I can't really go into Cooper's background, or it will give it away, but, there is nobody who would have been more prepared for that jump, that anyone I have run across in my life. Given his expertise in skydiving, a pilot for 20 years, and being a mechanic.

The FBI agent assigned to this case was quoted as saying there was "no way Cooper could have known where he was when he jumped, and that he just bailed out whenever he could get the stairs down". And you wonder why the case is unsolved? Isn't that like saying a bank robber goes into a bank without a plan, exits the bank, and has no plan on which streets to take, where to park a switch car, etc? Or like sending our astronauts to the moon, and not having a plan on how to return them through the atmosphere, and back to earth.

AS for charts, when the plane was refueling in Seattle, the pilot ordered navigational charts since he was not familar with the low aviation route. THE FAA also sent out meals for the crew, at Cooper's request. What a gentleman!!!

Once again, thanks Adnoid.

left

As for the pilot saying he was off course, I wouldn't put any faith in that statement.

First of all, the FBI reviewed radar reports before their search, as well as debriefing the pilots and crew. In cases like this, you here all types of reports.

One report says the pilot, William Scott thought Cooper jumped over Lake Merwin, and another states the pilot said he was off course and west of I-5.

Thing is, Lake Merwin is at least 5 miles east of v-23, and the pilot said he couldn't see the ground and he was unfamilar with the route.

However, Cooper, with the aftstairs down, would have a much better view of the drop zone, than a pilot in the cockpit of a 727. imo

 

[Tranaice]

I can't wait until you can tell us the rest of the story. This has been so interesting. Please be careful, though!

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Well, I don't see how they can "be careful" at this point! They went back to see the guy and it sounds like someone else - someone much more powerful than they are? - had also been there to see the guy before leftcoast and his friend even got there!

In a way this in and of itself may actually offer them some "protection" from the alleged Mr. DB Cooper. Because if it was just leftcoast and his friend continuing to get closer and closer to the truth - well, who knows? The man has a criminal background...

So maybe now that someone from the media (?) is asking questions, the alleged Mr. Cooper would not dare try to "do anything" to leftcoast or his friend. (But I hope he doesn't know where you guys live!)

What was his demeanor about the whole thing? I'm surprised he even gave you 15 minutes of his time under the new circumstances!

Oh, and leftcoast, you would be surprised at how often something is discussed here on this board and then, lo and behold, you see that very same thing being discussed on television the next day - or sometimes even that evening! It happens all the time.

Good luck with this. Is your goal apprehension of the criminal?

 

[leftcoast]

Well, I don't see how they can "be careful" at this point! They went back to see the guy and it sounds like someone else - someone much more powerful than they are? - had also been there to see the guy before leftcoast and his friend even got there!

In a way this in and of itself may actually offer them some "protection" from the alleged Mr. DB Cooper. Because if it was just leftcoast and his friend continuing to get closer and closer to the truth - well, who knows? The man has a criminal background...

So maybe now that someone from the media (?) is asking questions, the alleged Mr. Cooper would not dare try to "do anything" to leftcoast or his friend. (But I hope he doesn't know where you guys live!)

What was his demeanor about the whole thing? I'm surprised he even gave you 15 minutes of his time under the new circumstances!

Oh, and leftcoast, you would be surprised at how often something is discussed here on this board and then, lo and behold, you see that very same thing being discussed on television the next day - or sometimes even that evening! It happens all the time.

Good luck with this. Is your goal apprehension of the criminal?

Always Shocked, Tranaice:

You are correct, careful ended a few months ago. But, we always rent a car, and go out in pairs.

When you do something like this, there is an inherent risk. But, it is a risk we are willing to take. Risk vs. Reward.

You are right, the more people who know about this, the safer we are. PLus, if we didn't have the right guy, then, he wouldn't be after us.

He doesn't know our real names, nor where we live. With enough money, time, and effort, you can find just about anyone in this world. It all depends on how bad someone wants to find you.

Don't forget, some of the people called this guy a "folk hero". A true "folk hero" wouldn't hurt us, would he?

You are right about the 15 minutes. However, he was fishing from us, trying to get information. Doesnt' sound like a guy who has nothing to do with this.

His demeanor was that of a man who was scared, shaken. come on, 35 years later, what are the odds?

I just get a kick out of someone who tells me the FBI wasn't upset about this crime. He actually said the FBI said Cooper was a "hero", because he didnt' hurt anyone, and that the FBI wasn't upset about the crime. lol

As for apprehension of this guy. That is not my main goal. To be honest, I kind of like the guy. He is hard not to like. I am not a vengeful person. However, we do want credit for solving this case, after all, we have spent a great deal of time and money solving it. PLus, I want him to apologize to both Tina and Florence, and for them to know they don't have to look over their shoulders the rest of their lives.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. You know, we went to the media with this story, and once you go public, you can no longer control the story. So, whatever happens, is now out of our hands.

thanks

left

PS Do you find it odd that Cooper knows the "porosity" of the chute that Cooper left behind on the plane. 35 years later, he told us what the perocity of that parachute was, as if, it happened yesterday. Even if it was a standard rating, I still find that amazing. It has not been released to the public, nor would most people (including myself), even know what it means. Until of course, I looked it up. Let's play devil's advocate, and say that he heard through the skydiving community about this crime. Sure, that is possible. But, would the skydiving community know the porosity rating of the chute Cooper left behind on the plane?

 

[leftcoast]

I have read, however, that the pilot felt he was not on course at that point - what does your research show? It's believable - the Victor airways are low-altitude routes, which the pilots would not follow normally. In fact, they may not have had the correct charts for those routes, although they likely would have.

After the hijacking, Paul Soderlind, Director of Flight Operations-Northwest Airlines, spent a considerable amount of time going over radar reports, flight data, etc. He concluded the jet was on V-23. The FBI also did their own research, and reached the same conclusion.

In addition, I asked Himmelsbach, at our lunch, where the airliner was as it went over the plane of the POrtland Airport. H-bach responded the airliner was about two miles west of the Portland airport, as it flew through Portland toward Reno. If one looks at the v-23 charts provided by Adnoid, this is consistent with the airliner being on course. I also asked H-bach the exact time the airliner entered the same plane (latitude) as the Portland airport. He was not sure, but, thought it was close to 8:25pm. My thinking was that the Feds should have worked backwards. In other words, find out from ATC, what time the hijacked airliner went through the Portland airport latitude, then using the known speed, and route, work backwards and determine exactly where Cooper jumped. Obviously, this idea was never used.

Note: Remember, H-bach was a passenger in a Huey that chased the hijacked airliner from Portland until Eugene, when they fell so far behind, they were ordered back to the airport. The Huey's top speed is about 120 knots, the airplane was traveling 170 knots, hence, they fell behind about 60 miles in the short time they trailed the airliner.

This tells me two things:

the airliner was most likely on v-23, or very close. We basically have three seperate sources telling us the same thing.

It also tells us that the FBI had zero clue that Cooper had jumped north of Portland. Otherwise, the FBI would have sent the Huey to the spot where they believed Cooper had jumped. Instead, the FBI didn't know Cooper was gone from the rear, until that plane landed in Reno at 11pm.

left

PS As I stated in an earlier post, the pilot who supposedly made the comment about the airliner being "off course", supposedly made these comments in 1980, 8 years after the jump.

Based upon the above, I just don't understand how anybody who has done their homework on this case, could conclude that Cooper landed in the Columbia River.

 

[leftcoast]

That does make sense. Being at the proper altitude and on the proper course is one of those "pride of execution" things. As one of my instructors told me, "You have to be at SOME altitude and heading, so why not the PROPER altitude & heading?".

I like your flight instructor. Seems like a "wise" person. Seems like ex-military where everything is done by the book.

Other reasons I believe for staying on-course while heading from Seattle to Reno:

Pilots knew fighter jets were following, staying on course would enable the jets to follow easier

Don't want to make unexpected turns with a fighter jet following you (the fighter jets had to fly around and underneath the hijacked jet in order to stay within 5 miles of the jet. The fighters, which were used to flying at Mach 2, were just not designed to fly at 170 knots, and hence, had problems flying so slow.)

Staying on course would make the hunt for Cooper much easier, if and when he decided to jump from the airliner.

Staying on course would enable ATC to get assistance quicker, just in case the plane went down.

Staying on course would enable the Huey with H-bach to anticipate where the jet would be as it entered Portland air space and was followed south

With limited knowledge of low altitude flying in region, flying in a storm with limited visibility, one would expect the pilots to stick to the route. Especially with all the mountains bordering v-23, including MT st Helens, Mt. Hood, and further south.

Staying on course, "should have", enabled LE to come up with possible landing spots for Cooper. Between Seattle and Portland, there are only so many spots that an experienced skydiver would want to jump. I don't think it was a coincidence that Cooper jumped in an area that contained numerous ranchettes, two designated drop zones, and other flat unpopulated areas.

Like Adnoid stated, if you have to fly somewhere, you might as well be on course. Not to mention it was most likely SOP for commercial pilots.

I do know that ATC gave the airliner a 4,000 foot envelope regarding altitude, while heading south. However, I've never heard any stories that ATC gave the airliner the right to fly wherever they chose.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Adnoid

You seem like a well-rounded person who knows quite a bit about aviation, etc.

Can you fully explain to me, and the others, about "porosity", related to parachutes, and how a reading of say, 1.6 rating would mean?

From my limited knowledge, it would appear "porosity" would mean the amount of air a parachute allows to escape while deployed. However, it is just an educated guess on my part.


thanks

left

 

[scandi]

HI Leftcoast, Interesting about the jets following the hijacked plane. We know they didn't know Cooper had jumped out of the plane until they got to Las Vegas {right?}

Are you surprised that with 2 planes following, neither pilot saw the likes of a parachutist fly by or of a parachute opening up?

Just wondering. Scandi

 

[leftcoast]

HI Leftcoast, Interesting about the jets following the hijacked plane. We know they didn't know Cooper had jumped out of the plane until they got to Las Vegas {right?}

Are you surprised that with 2 planes following, neither pilot saw the likes of a parachutist fly by or of a parachute opening up?

Just wondering. Scandi

We do know that the FBI was unaware that Cooper jumped until that plane landed in Reno.

No, I'm not surprised the two jets didn't see the parachutist fly by or a parchute opening.

I'll explain why. The f-106's were instructed to stay out of view of the 727. As a result, they primarily used their inboard radar to track the airliner. The F-106 pilots were never able to tell authorities whether or not the aft stairs were even deployed on the 727.

Given this, I doubt they would have seen anything. Remember, it was cloudy, rainy, night. You dont' want to piss off the hijacker, and risk him detonating the bomb, or worse, setting a timer, jumping, and pow.

Plus, this was in the 70's, before FLIR.

Most people agree that a falling skydiver would not show up on the radar of a f-106 due to the small nature of the diver.

In addition, it has always been my belief that Cooper pulled the ripchord very, very close to the ground. Probably about 1,000 feet above the ground. So, seeing a parachute on the radar, or through the cockpit at 10,000 feet, would be impossible. Not to mention, when Cooper did pull the chute, the fighters would have been almost 9,000 feet above him, and most likely in front of his landing zone.

Also, those two f-106's were called back to McChord, somewhere before the 727 went into Portland airspace. We are not certain the exact location, but, it appears they were sent back north of the jump site.

The reason the f-106's were sent back, was simple, they were useless, and dangerous. They couldn't fly slow enough to stay with the 727, and were having difficulty staying in the air. Some were worried the f-106's could stall due to lack of speed.

Plus, the FBI had planned on having H-bach and a t-33 trainer begin following the hijacked jet once it reached just southt of Portland. A side note: an additional plane, I believe a c-130 eventually took over the chase as the plane hit the California-Oregon border and escorted the 727 into Reno.

So, in a long winded answer, I'm not surprised the two fighters didn't see Cooper jump. PLus, knowing Cooper and his plan, it wouldn't surprise me if he chose an area to jump in which there was poor radar coverage.

left

PS Adnoid, I agree. Some of the skydiving schools work on a paper thin budget, and usually have old, beat up, planes that one wonders how they even fly. I know when I went diving, the plane was a piece of crap. No seats, padding. We had to sit on the floor. I don't think a skydiving business is a very profitable business. PLanes, fuel, insurance, pilots, bad weather, etc. would appear to eat away any and all profits.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

parachute porosity (gaps between ribbons)

Just google "parachute porosity" - there are a number of technical articles listed.

Just as an aside: What happened when the plane landed with the steps down? Was it able to land without any problems?

 

[leftcoast]

parachute porosity (gaps between ribbons)

Just google "parachute porosity" - there are a number of technical articles listed.

Just as an aside: What happened when the plane landed with the steps down? Was it able to land without any problems?

thanks for looking it up Always S.

I had read some, but, it appeared rather technical.

I was hoping somebody with skydiving expertise would know what a rating of 1.6 meant.

Based on what I've read, it appears that "porosity" is the amount of air that can be forced through a canopy. Supposedly, there is some type of meter which actually measures the porosity rate.

Zero porosity=zero air passes through the canopy.

Supposedly, as canopies wear, their perosity rating increases, and eventually the canopy will need to be replaced as it allows too much air through, and hence doesn't slow down the diver adequately.

My thought was that 99.9 of the population does not know what chutes were given to Cooper on that plane. Now, 35 years later, Mr. Cooper tells us, as if it happened yesterday, the exact porosity rating of one of the chutes. It was on the tip of his tongue. This information was not public. Where did he recieve it? From the skydiving community? and if so, why would one remember this for 35 years?

This also shows a pattern of bragging, which is consistent with Cooper.

While on the plane, Cooper bragged about his knowledge of aviation, knowing the proper flap setting of 15 degrees, spotting Tacoma from the air, and arguing with a captain of a 727 whether the aft stairs could be down while the plane was taking off. In my mind, it is a trend, a consistent personality trait. During a crime, every time you open your mouth, you are giving away information, such as your knowledge, your accent, a look at your teeth, your voice pattern, etc. Silence is golden.

As for the aft stairs. Yes, the plane landed in Reno with the aft stairs extended.

There were no problems landing the plane. The stairs did spark a bit, and were slightly damaged, some damage was most likely due to the wind during the flight, and some from the landing.

However, I've seen pictures of the jet at Reno, and the aft stairs were in tact and functional. The stairs eventually needed some repairs before the jet was put back into action.

left

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"The parachute types specified by D.B. Cooper, according to author Gunther, were acquired from a sport parachute center in Issaquah, Washington-two standard emergency back-type and two chest-type auxiliary parachutes (the latter generally termed reserve chutes, for back-up emergency use if the main chute should malfunction when a sport parachutist was making a jump). The parachute center in Issaquah provided the two chest packs and Earl Cossey, a parachuting instructor at the Issaquah drop zone as well as an FAA Master Parachute Rigger, contacted at his nearby home, brought two back-type rigs from his parachute workshop there and delivered them to the parachute school. (The types and number of parachutes asked for by D.B. Cooper led to early speculation that the skyjacker might have freefall parachuting experience and that he might have an accomplice.)"

The above fis from this article: "Skullduggery by Parachute" http://aero.aero.com/publications/parachutes/9602/pc0296.htm

If I am reading this article correctly, the parachutes he asked for - and I am assuming he asked specifically for exactly what he wanted - would have been for two people? A standard chute and a back up chute plus another standard chute and another backup chute?

But why would anyone have thought he had an accomplice when they knew he was alone in the cabin of the plane after leaving passengers and one flight attendant off the plane at Sea-Tac? Did they think there was someone else secreted in the back of the plane with him? Did they think a crew member was his accomplice? That sentence doesn't make sense to me.

Also, the last paaragraphs of this article gives a good idea of how and why the "folk hero" myth came into play. Do they still "celebrate" Cooper Day out there? (I really hope not)

 

[leftcoast]

leftcoast can probably give you a better answer, but my understanding is that he asked for 2 sets to create the impression that he might force one of the innocent crew to jump with him - thus preventing anyone from messing with the chutes and preventing them from opening by misrigging them.

A. Shocked.

Good thought about the two chutes. I never thought of it that way.

I think that when Cooper requested two sets of chutes, he left open quite a few questions to authorities.

Would he make one of the flight attendants jump with one set? or Did he have an accomplice?

Don't forget, when Cooper requested and received the chutes, nobody knew whether or not he had an accomplice. So, maybe his intention was to give the impression he had an accomplice to prevent the feds from storming the plane in Seattle. However, you are correct, once he released the passengers, it was obvious there probably wasn't an accomplice. But, by this time, he already had in his possession, both sets of chutes, and the money.

My take is that he ordered two sets to prevent the feds from as Adnoid puts it, misrigging the chute so that it wouldn't open correctly, and would kill him. Further evidence of this, is that Cooper popped open one of the chutes on the plane. Don't forget, Cooper took the chute that most skydiver's said would have been their second choice. Maybe, Cooper was one step ahead, and chose to pop open the most likely chute, just in case it was misrigged.

Authorities believed he popped open the chute to only cut the shrouds, but, in reality, both could be true. It is amazing how much planning went into Cooper's crime, and how he thought ahead. I'm sure when he popped open that chute, him being an expert diver, examined the shrouds, the method it was packed, and also looked for bugging devices. Cooper is not a fool. I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that he brought his own chute aboard, or that he brought his own d-rings, along with his gloves, altimeter, hat, and boots.

Good thoughts there A. Shocked.

Actually, I read the book that Gunther wrote and it was brutal. His book is based on Cooper, but fiction. The premise is that Cooper lands near a cabin with a broken ankle, a squirrel steals his loot, and some woman down on her luck stumbles upon him and falls in love with him. Total crap.

The best book, so far, is the one from Tosaw. However, he had a glorious chance to solve this case back in 1984, but chose instead to come up with his "landing in the Columbia theory", which has been proven to be almost impossible.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Also, the last paaragraphs of this article gives a good idea of how and why the "folk hero" myth came into play. Do they still "celebrate" Cooper Day out there? (I really hope not)

Yes, they still have the Cooper celebration the Saturday night of Thanksgiving weekend.

It is held in Ariel, WA, at a very small town store, which ironically, half of the business is a very, very, small grocery store, and the other half of the building is a tavern.

We actually went to the celebration back in 2001, the thirty year anniversary.

It is basically a publicity stunt to create business and headlines for the store owner.

People show up, dressed in a black suit, and sunglasses, and the band plays the "db cooper" song the entire night. They have a DB Cooper look-a-like contest.

Ironically, Mr. Cooper has told us he actually went to one of the events, which would be over a three hour drive for him.

I guess he wants to re-live that day whenever possible. Can you say sociopath?

left

 

[leftcoast]

Folks:

Just did get off the phone.

For those living in Portland. Sweeps week. May 15, for three consecutive nights, DB Cooper suspect will be revealed.

I know it is a month away, but, they want it for sweeps week.

Exciting, after seven years, finally!!!!!!!!!!

left

 

[scandi]

FABULOUS NEWS Leftcoast! Let's have a little :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

You guys have done a great job, and having a chance to get to know you here Left, I think it is because you are so thorough and have taken the time to learn every little thing about the case! That hard work is now going to pay off for you - just think of it, to expose the culprit in the only US Hijaking case that has never been solved! Phenominal.

Now Sweeps Week, what is that? I haven't heard of that before. Is that something Channel 6 does?

The only sweeps I know about in Portland this time of the year is the immagration sweep when Portland cops pick up any Mexican on the streets that don't have papers before Rose Festival. lol

What if DB decides to take off? Has channel 6 cut a deal with the other powerful force that had talked to DB and rattled him? Local at first, and when do they expect it will hit the national air waves?

Oh, I feel like I am about to give birth this is so exciting. And one of the reasons I am so happy is that two hometown guys persevered and have done what the big guns couldn't do. I call it Sleuthing for Success It just is too neat!

Somehow this guy has always reminded me of DB

Scandi