WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #1

[Old Dominion]

OD

Funny thing. the first sketches of Cooper look nothing like each other.

the "bing Crosby" sketch shows a "white" guy with a receeding hairline, long nose, and thin.

the other sketch, shows a guy with "jet black" hair, sunglasses, and kind of looks like Casey Kasem. Which, points toward a wig.

anyway, the point is, neither sketch resembles a "swarthy person". Do you agree?

left

Correct, they don't. This has always bothered me for many reasons.
I always think of the 2 sketches as the RF McCoy which I think is your Bing and the Weber which I think is your Kasem.

In the b/w versions of these I'd agree. But...I've seen the Weber/Kasem one swarth-i-tized in color.

Then there's the UM sketch which really WRT solving this case is the most interesting. I'm wondering why that one didn't get any airtime on KOIN?

Dom

 

[leftcoast]

Correct, they don't. This has always bothered me for many reasons.
I always think of the 2 sketches as the RF McCoy which I think is your Bing and the Weber which I think is your Kasem.

In the b/w versions of these I'd agree. But...I've seen the Weber/Kasem one swarth-i-tized in color.

Then there's the UM sketch which really WRT solving this case is the most interesting. I'm wondering why that one didn't get any airtime on KOIN?

Dom

Right. With the three sketches one has the wonder if the witnesses were all on the same plane.

One sketch shows a balding man, McCoy, and one show's a guy with a full head of hair or wig. What gives?

FTR. Florence states that neither sketch looks like Cooper.

Flo. drew a sketch in 1988, and we all know who that one looks like. I call that one the "bozo" sketch. It looks like a man with a long nose, who is balding bozo style, and has a thick neck, and big cheeks. Hmm. He looks much meaner,and rougher than the other sketches.


but, KOIN didn't show it on the air. Maybe, because they didn't have it in their research. However, I did bring it with me.

In H-bach's book, he even admits that sketches are a "POOR" method of identifying someone.

H-bach even admits to himself, "could Cooper have been wearing a disguise"?

Some police officers refuse to use sketch artists, because some people's memories are so bad, and some artists are bad, thus, it leads to perp.'s being eliminated soley based on a sketch. Bingo.

anyway, a good detective should have personally interviewed the witnesses, inspected the plane, and done re-enactments with the crew in order to get a better idea of Cooper's build, height ,etc

In other words, have Florence see different agents sit in Cooper's seat, with each agent a different height, weight etc. and ask Flo which person is closet to his height,etc. This was never done.

All in all, Cooper was one step ahead of the FBI. H-bach underestimated his enemy, and then assumed he was helping in the investigation, when all along, he was steering the fBI toward other suspects. Unbelieveble.

left

ps Who is to say that Cooper didn't tell the flight attendants to "forget" what I look like. In McCoy's case, he threatened to throw the girls out the back of the plane, and said "don't look at me". I wouldn't put it past Cooper to threaten them in the future. Heck, he threatened to blow up the plane, who is to say he didn't tell the flight attendants he could find them in the future?

 

[Old Dominion]

anyway, a good detective should have personally interviewed the witnesses, inspected the plane, and done re-enactments with the crew in order to get a better idea of Cooper's build, height ,etc

Now why would anyone with a friendly offer from a local jump instructor to locate the perp. want to do a thing like that? Besides he's a real nice guy and is going to volunteer his own personal time to "help catch that ". He's even offered a tour of his brand new $170,000 hangar.

ps Who is to say that Cooper didn't tell the flight attendants to "forget" what I look like. In McCoy's case, he threatened to throw the girls out the back of the plane, and said "don't look at me". I wouldn't put it past Cooper to threaten them in the future. Heck, he threatened to blow up the plane, who is to say he didn't tell the flight attendants he could find them in the future?

Good point. I'm sure he used real subtle scare tactics that have resonated since. Less is more. Gotta' say LC that I can very easily picture good 'ol Ted offering each of those attendants $10K of the loot with a smile. Scary.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Ya, it's funny, Cooper offered to tip the flight attendants, and during our lunch, Teddy told a story about how he tried to "tip" a flight attendant in the 80's in order to get an upgrade to first class. Hmm, I don't know anyone who has ever tried to tip a flight attendant. FA's actually take it as an insult. Hmm.

another thing

I don't get this, All he had to do was ask Ted, and say, hey, I don't think you did it, but "where were you from 2-10pm on 11/24/71.

then, h-bach could have secured his supposed alibi, shown his picture to the flight attendants, and probably made a decision regarding his guilt. Only then, would you allow a person to assist in an investigation.

One thing I should note, H-bach did admit the possibility to me that Mayfield could have "planned" the heist, but, he is steadfast Mayfield isn't Cooper.

Well, if you think he planned the heist, why are you using him to assist you in the investigation?

And why didn't you put surveillance on him after the crime?

Why didn't H-bach visit his employment, his house, interview his friends, victims of the armed robbery, call back tipsters, look at income tax returns, match prints, etc. Oh, I guess that would take foresight, and some detective work.

Hate to keep bring this up, but, the main witness said Cooper was 40, H-bach.

Another thing, H-bach freely admits in his book how bad the public is at getting accurate descriptions of perps. He states a case of a bank robbery where a teller insists the robber had on a paisly hat, when surveillance tape showed the hat was not paisly, but was a pork rimmed hat. Let's face it , we all suck as witnesses. It is not something we do on a daily basis, and it isn't something we are trained to do. We are worried about saving our lives, not getting a description.

I give up.

left

 

[websurfer]

Case#551UMOR


This man was found in a campsite type location..
If you look on maps of where Cooper jumped from the plane ..
it was in the general area of the mountain tops there.
This man had an incredible amount of money on him a whopping $6,000.00 !
Why wouls anybody up in any mountains need that much cash?
If this is not DB Cooper
It would be good for us all to begin looking in the
Missing sites for someone who may match his description.
I know sometime ago a lady and kid found some very wet scattered money along some seashore didn't they?
Leading people to speculate that DB Cooper
possibly was the one who had it?
It is interesting..on unsolved mysteries once i recall a story about some guy claiming to be Db Cooper but elderly now?
Of course Elvis Is still alive as well as Jim Morrison...so what's that saying about the Brooklyn Bridge?
later all....
lazy Sunday here so glad!
A storm is rolling in so i will have to get offline soon i think?

 

[websurfer]

Right. With the three sketches one has the wonder if the witnesses were all on the same plane.

One sketch shows a balding man, McCoy, and one show's a guy with a full head of hair or wig. What gives?

FTR. Florence states that neither sketch looks like Cooper.

Flo. drew a sketch in 1988, and we all know who that one looks like. I call that one the "bozo" sketch. It looks like a man with a long nose, who is balding bozo style, and has a thick neck, and big cheeks. Hmm. He looks much meaner,and rougher than the other sketches.


but, KOIN didn't show it on the air. Maybe, because they didn't have it in their research. However, I did bring it with me.

In H-bach's book, he even admits that sketches are a "POOR" method of identifying someone.

H-bach even admits to himself, "could Cooper have been wearing a disguise"?

Some police officers refuse to use sketch artists, because some people's memories are so bad, and some artists are bad, thus, it leads to perp.'s being eliminated soley based on a sketch. Bingo.

anyway, a good detective should have personally interviewed the witnesses, inspected the plane, and done re-enactments with the crew in order to get a better idea of Cooper's build, height ,etc

In other words, have Florence see different agents sit in Cooper's seat, with each agent a different height, weight etc. and ask Flo which person is closet to his height,etc. This was never done.

All in all, Cooper was one step ahead of the FBI. H-bach underestimated his enemy, and then assumed he was helping in the investigation, when all along, he was steering the fBI toward other suspects. Unbelieveble.

left

ps Who is to say that Cooper didn't tell the flight attendants to "forget" what I look like. In McCoy's case, he threatened to throw the girls out the back of the plane, and said "don't look at me". I wouldn't put it past Cooper to threaten them in the future. Heck, he threatened to blow up the plane, who is to say he didn't tell the flight attendants he could find them in the future?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are there any sketches links here?

 

[scandi]

Hi Websurfer, Here is a link to Linn County: http://bluebook.state.or.us/local/counties/counties22.htm

Jumping out at 8:13 doesn't jive with where the plane was at that point and the time it would take to travel down to Linn County.

I can't get into the Doe Network as they are evidently having server problems, but I did see this guy was found in Eastern Linn County which is in the Cascade Range where Mt Jefferson is.

I don't even know if that plane flew over this area, but others here are much more saavy about that than I am.

Also, If he only had $6,000.00 on him, where would the balance of $194,000 be? Did serial #'s match the ransom money? For starters! LOL

Thinking out of the box is always a very good thing to do in brainstorming something, but I would need to learn more about his dress, year of death, etc. Scandi

 

[scandi]

This is on page #5 of this thread, in post #111.



This is the FBI Flyer on page #5, post #113:

 

[leftcoast]

Hi Websurfer, Here is a link to Linn County: http://bluebook.state.or.us/local/counties/counties22.htm

Jumping out at 8:13 doesn't jive with where the plane was at that point and the time it would take to travel down to Linn County.

I can't get into the Doe Network as they are evidently having server problems, but I did see this guy was found in Eastern Linn County which is in the Cascade Range where Mt Jefferson is.

I don't even know if that plane flew over this area, but others here are much more saavy about that than I am.

Also, If he only had $6,000.00 on him, where would the balance of $194,000 be? Did serial #'s match the ransom money? For starters! LOL

Thinking out of the box is always a very good thing to do in brainstorming something, but I would need to learn more about his dress, year of death, etc. Scandi

The plane traveled down v-23, which is listed on earlier pages as to its' exact location. (v-23 basically flys right over Albany, Or.)

v-23 is approimately 50 miles west of Mt. Jefferson, so he would have had a long walk. Not to mention that Mt Jefferson is above 10,000 feet, and the pilots would not have been able to even fly in that quadrant, and would have been off course by 50 miles.

At 8:13pm, when Cooper is known to have jumped, the plane was 20 miles north of Portland, which is a heck of a long way from Linn county. (80 miles or so, or about 23 minute of flying time)

Not to mention the $6,000 found on the banks of the Columbia river.

The plane continued down v-23 which basically goes down the Willamette Valley corrider, and stays clear of any and all mountain ranges, since Cooper limited the altitude to 10,000 feet.

The 6,000 is a lot of money to be found, but, he had say 200,000, or 194,000, I would be very interested. Plus, as Scandi noted, was that money compared to the twenties from the Cooper case?

What year was on the serial numbers of the money? Was it all 20's? IF so, the serial numbers would have to be from either 1950, 1963, or 1969 to be from the Cooper heist. Plus, did they find a parachute? a briefcase? or just a man in the mountains?

Good job answering the questions Scandi.

left

PS Actually, this is a good example of why Cooper didn't die during the jump. Dead people are being found in the Cascade mountains, and nobody can kind a man who jumps just 20 miles north of Portland, and this over a 35 year period? seems extremely unlikely, put the money being found buried on the banks of the Columbia, etc.

 

[Old Dominion]

another thing

I don't get this, All he had to do was ask Ted, and say, hey, I don't think you did it, but "where were you from 2-10pm on 11/24/71.

Very Good. One thing about a "closed" mind is that it almost ALWAYS indicates an "agenda" of some sort. Anyone who really wants to solve anything will run down all leads. A-G-A-I-N something is amiss here.

then, h-bach could have secured his supposed alibi, shown his picture to the flight attendants, and probably made a decision regarding his guilt. Only then, would you allow a person to assist in an investigation.

He would have at least had to interview them to do this. He didn't want to. LC, this is NOT incompetence.

One thing I should note, H-bach did admit the possibility to me that Mayfield could have "planned" the heist, but, he is steadfast Mayfield isn't Cooper.

Then Teddy-boy is an ACCOMPLICE or possible ACCOMPLICE. This means that it's entirely possible that H-bach is within the realm of "obstruction of justice".

Hate to keep bring this up, but, the main witness said Cooper was 40, H-bach.

As I pointed out before, why in the KOIN interview does he push his age as high as 55? Again, this is not incompetence. As I mentioned in a previous post, I've got a very strange theory about "SWARTHY", and I'm starting to feel a little better about how off the wall I thought it was.

Another thing, H-bach freely admits in his book how bad the public is at getting accurate descriptions of perps. He states a case of a bank robbery where a teller insists the robber had on a paisly hat, when surveillance tape showed the hat was not paisly, but was a pork rimmed hat. Let's face it , we all suck as witnesses. It is not something we do on a daily basis, and it isn't something we are trained to do. We are worried about saving our lives, not getting a description.

This is why ELIMINATING anyone doesn't make any sense. Least of all Mayfield. If you lost your keys hours ago and had been all over the house during the day, but you could swear that you were never in the upstairs study do you search that room? You've looked everywhere in the house except the upstairs study (which you're CERTAIN you haven't been in) but haven't been able to find your keys. Do you give them up as lost, or take a look in the upstairs study? The answer is obvious, unless you don't want anyone in the study. That would be an AGENDA.

Does anyone get this?

Dominion

 

[scandi]

Yes, I get it, and think it very strange indeed! I hope the FBI reads this forum, seriously. Scandi

 

[leftcoast]

I get it too. Dominion. the more you give examples, the more I am starting to wonder.

Is there a reason why he wasn't questioned, does he know something, etc?

Remember, my point that I thought was a huge clue in this case.

This is IMPORTANT

Cooper made certain, certain, that he HANDED that ransom note to the flight attendant while the plane was taxiing on the ground in Portland. It was as if Cooper wanted to make sure the case would be handled by the Portland FBI office, since it happened on Portland soil.

It would have been much safer, and only took another minute or two for Cooper to wait and hand the note to Florence once the plane was airborne. However, that plane would have been in Washington state immediately after takeoff, and maybe Cooper didn't want the Seattle FBI running this case.

I am starting to move closer to your side, OD

I am dying to know where you are going with swarthy.

left

 

[scandi]

Left, The airspace and what it is considered as to belonging to has me curious. The reason I say that is with waterways, if you get to a certain distance out from land the ownership, or jusisdiction of it changes. It makes perfect sense that he gave the note to her while they were taxiing on Oregon ground for the reason you say, but I've never heard that a State owns all the air above it.

Aren't you surprised they didn't try to draw that time out longer in Seattle? I know it took quite some time to get the money together, what an hour? You'd think they would take every minute they could to work out some strategy to challange him. Did they have the captain go back and talk to him?

 

[leftcoast]

Left, The airspace and what it is considered as to belonging to has me curious. The reason I say that is with waterways, if you get to a certain distance out from land the ownership, or jusisdiction of it changes. It makes perfect sense that he gave the note to her while they were taxiing on Oregon ground for the reason you say, but I've never heard that a State owns all the air above it.

Aren't you surprised they didn't try to draw that time out longer in Seattle? I know it took quite some time to get the money together, what an hour? You'd think they would take every minute they could to work out some strategy to challange him. Did they have the captain go back and talk to him?

Scandi

I'm not an FBI expert. However, air piracy is a federal case. Normally, the FBI will assign the case to the closest office from which the crime occurred. For example, a Portland bank robbery is handled by the POrtland FBI. Any of the jurisdictions in which the plane flew, could have had the case assigned to it. However, since Cooper arrived at the Portland airport, gave the note on the ground, etc., it was handled by the Portland FBI.

One has to wonder if Cooper waited until the plane was close to Seattle to hand the note, if the Seattle FBI office would have been the lead organization, or would it have still been Portland, since Cooper boarded in Portland. I honesty don't know, and I think it is a case by case decision.

Captain Scott, First officer Rataczak, and flight engineer Harold Anderson never, ever left the cockpit during the hijacking. that rumor is not true.

As for stalling, Cooper insisted the plane stay airborne until the money and chutes were ready. Cooper handed the note at 3pm, the plane circled for 2 hours, landed at 5:38pm, and the FBI stalled for 2 more hours on the ground in Seattle. So, the fBI stalled for 4 hours total.

Near the end, Cooper threatened to blow up the plane if the pilot didn't start the engines and "get the show on the road". So, Captain Scott, afraid for his life, and the others, told the fBI that it is time to take off.

Obviously, the fBI thought cooper had a bomb, and would use it. i agree.

The plane took off at exactly 7:38pm. So, it was on the ground in Seattle for over two hours.

Cooper made the flight attendants put down all the shades on the plane, so no pictures could be taken, and no snipers could shoot. cooper also warned not to try and shoot out the tires of the plane, or he would blow the plane up.

left

ps Jurisdiction of airspace above a state, usually falls into federal hands. The FAA, FBI, etc. are in charge of airspace. IF you remember, this whole thing started with a dispute over air traffic procedures at the Donald airport. That is why the FAA was on our suspect's back. That, and buzzing neighbors, etc.

 

[leftcoast]

I'm sure Adnoid knows a lot more about the FAA, and airspace, etc.

Maybe, he will loan us some of his knowledge, and see if I got it right.

left

 

[scandi]

Thanks Left, I hadn't realized there was really 4 hours involved in total. And I think you are right about everything else. Once those wheels leave the ground you are in Federal space controlled by the FAA, and if you give the stewardess a note the plane is being hijacked it is an immediate FBI case.

 

[Old Dominion]

I get it too. Dominion. the more you give examples, the more I am starting to wonder.

Your wondering is the savy that solved this case. More of that cannot possibly be a bad thing.

Cooper made certain, certain, that he HANDED that ransom note to the flight attendant while the plane was taxiing on the ground in Portland. It was as if Cooper wanted to make sure the case would be handled by the Portland FBI office, since it happened on Portland soil.

Definitely. The FBI ground rule is for a reason. And why call the FBI general line and get a dispatcher or service rep when you can have Himmelsbach's direct line in your pocket? Shouldn't everyone have THEIR favorite FBI agent's direct line handy at all times?

I am dying to know where you are going with swarthy.

left

All I can tell you at this time is if I'm right a 4 year old could fit those remaining puzzle pieces together. Don't want to fall flat on my face so I'll be careful on this one for now.

 

[Mysticchic]

Wow interesting observations. You know all the big ones that people got away with had someone on the inside.

 

[scandi]

Wow interesting observations. You know all the big ones that people got away with had someone on the inside.

WOW is right Mysticchik, I have read OD's post several times. He says ". . . .And why call the FBI general line and get a dispatcher or service rep when you can have Himmelsbach's direct line in your pocket?" I had always thought he dialed the regular FBI line and asked for Himmelsbach.

That is such a provocative thought in this case, I can't believe I am just now hearing it!

So how do concerned and educated citizens go about having the investigative agency in charge of that case investigate its own previous investigation?

Now that is a story!


Left, have you ever had Florences sketch scanned so you can send it to people, or post it? ;} Scandi

 

[leftcoast]

Scandi

Ask and ya shall receive. this is the sketch I like to call the "bozo sketch".



Didn't come out perfect, but, you get the idea. Long nose, beefy neck, big cheeks, bozo hairdo, going bald. LOok like anyone you know?

Now, does that picture look like a thin man as described by H-bach? THat sketch is of a stocky, muscular man, as portrayed in H-bach's book. Why is h-bach changing the description of Cooper that he has in his book? His book says, stocky, compact.


left