WA WA - Elma, AsianFem 25-40, 330UFWA, Sz6 pearl Avon ring, gold earring w/5 blue sapphires, Oct'88

[wannabesleuthkk]

1. her skull was disturbed by animals presummably,part of skull missing.
how was the rest of the skeleton? fairly intact? spread about?
2. was her body/skeleton lying flat on back or curled up like fetal?
3. any cutting marks on bones or mandible? signs of injury from trunks falling on her post mortem?
4. what's the weather like in summer there. no need for jacket right? so spring or fall was more likely? To me it seems she was there with him a few minutes, somewhat relaxed enough to shed shirt and got too warm. i know it sounds sexist but a man would have thrown it on the ground and not cared to toss it over branch. If she placed it over branch she may have been comfortable for at least a few. He may have led her there under the guise of picking shrooms, she took off jacket to get to work and smack.
5. are we only seeing a pic of the one earring because that's all you found?or did you in fact find both.?
6. was there anything found near her in print? like a note, news clip, scrap of paper in empty wallet.
7. any tattoos?
8. what kind of fracture was it on tibia? simple, compound? any metal pins or repair incidating how or if she was treated by doctor or did it just look like it healed natural. if it wasn't a bad break, she may have not even seen doctor.
9. what textile factories are in nearby towns?
10. Remember the killer Robinson out of Kansas? He found his vics thru classifieds? got any mailorder bride magazines around there where one could find a vietnamese or phillipino woman wanting to come to beautiful america?
11. is hunting allowed in these woods? if so when does deer season start? do you have turkey around there? what else does one shoot to kill in those woods?
12. can you tell us anymore about the 'mushroom picker' that found her?
13. was DNA obtainable and sent in w/dental to NCIC?
14. was approx age determined by skull seams or other method?
I believe she is Asian, IMO Phillipino. She grew up with male dominated society. She would have been more submissive, less likely to fight back i think. If she perhaps never mind.
i can't think of anything else now.
guess it's good nite for me.
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

i just re-read that and realized it was like a PM to CCM.
Forgive me fellow sleuths for not addressing ya'll but being my first look at this, all these queries are for CCM.
no offense.
i wanted to share my thoughts with all of you but it sounded like a private chat with the bossman.
hope you understand. it's late.
nite nite
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

where was the entry wound?
was she looking at him when he shot her?
kk

 

[Becba]

She had on sapphire earrings. He did not take them. Nor her pearl ring. These were likely not very expensive but he could have taken them. The missing earring is likely where the rest of the skull is. Either he knew he or he killed her and lefther body there as a dumping ground.

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

Here's a map incase anyone likes to see the terrain like I do...

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Elma,...l=47.018887,-123.405991&spn=0.095966,0.340233

try that
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

the center is town of Elma, i believe she was found may an inch or so up and to the right of town center. Is this right, CCM?
and are there any crime scene photos, omitting evidence you're withholding of course, that you could post here?
and any pics of skull, i'd be interested in. I really like as much imagery in my brain to absorb the whole scenario.
thanks,
kk

 

[coldcaseman]

1. her skull was disturbed by animals presummably,part of skull missing.
how was the rest of the skeleton? fairly intact? spread about?
2. was her body/skeleton lying flat on back or curled up like fetal?
3. any cutting marks on bones or mandible? signs of injury from trunks falling on her post mortem?
4. what's the weather like in summer there. no need for jacket right? so spring or fall was more likely? To me it seems she was there with him a few minutes, somewhat relaxed enough to shed shirt and got too warm. i know it sounds sexist but a man would have thrown it on the ground and not cared to toss it over branch. If she placed it over branch she may have been comfortable for at least a few. He may have led her there under the guise of picking shrooms, she took off jacket to get to work and smack.
5. are we only seeing a pic of the one earring because that's all you found?or did you in fact find both.?
6. was there anything found near her in print? like a note, news clip, scrap of paper in empty wallet.
7. any tattoos?
8. what kind of fracture was it on tibia? simple, compound? any metal pins or repair incidating how or if she was treated by doctor or did it just look like it healed natural. if it wasn't a bad break, she may have not even seen doctor.
9. what textile factories are in nearby towns?
10. Remember the killer Robinson out of Kansas? He found his vics thru classifieds? got any mailorder bride magazines around there where one could find a vietnamese or phillipino woman wanting to come to beautiful america?
11. is hunting allowed in these woods? if so when does deer season start? do you have turkey around there? what else does one shoot to kill in those woods?
12. can you tell us anymore about the 'mushroom picker' that found her?
13. was DNA obtainable and sent in w/dental to NCIC?
14. was approx age determined by skull seams or other method?
I believe she is Asian, IMO Phillipino. She grew up with male dominated society. She would have been more submissive, less likely to fight back i think. If she perhaps never mind.
i can't think of anything else now.
guess it's good nite for me.
kk

The skeletal remains had been scattered by animals over a large area. No indications of cutting. The fracture was a simple one and was well healed, unknown when it occurred, no pins or any medical devices. The person who found the remains was hunting elk and looking for mushrooms, which is why he was scanning the ground. He saw a piece of jaw bone and didn't recognize what type of animal it belonged to. He picked up the piece, turned it over, and saw that one of the teeth had a filling in it. I have never seen turkeys here, but people hunt deer, elk, bear, etc. DNA was obtained and is in NCIC as well as dental. Forensic anthropologist estimated she was probably 28 years old, give or take. No comment on body position or bullet trajectory, only the killer and I know that. No papers, no litter in the imediate area except a bottle of Hires root beer (half full) that was in a trash bag hanging from a bush about 100 feet from the body. The bottle was filled in April, 1987 (as I recall) and according to the company, the bottle would have been purchased within 6 months, depending on the type of store. Bottles of pop may stay in smaller stores longer than supermarkets. The summer temps will get into the 70-80's, but the mornings (especially in the woods) can be cool. The clothing (along with the pop bottle, if it's connected) suggest that she was killed in the spring or early summer.

 

[coldcaseman]

the center is town of Elma, i believe she was found may an inch or so up and to the right of town center. Is this right, CCM?
and are there any crime scene photos, omitting evidence you're withholding of course, that you could post here?
and any pics of skull, i'd be interested in. I really like as much imagery in my brain to absorb the whole scenario.
thanks,
kk

Elma is a small town, about 1,200 pop. and the logging road she was on begins about 3 miles west of town. You then travel 5 mile North. I may have some photos, but the only ones I could share would show what we call second growth timber with the forest floor covered with moss, tree debris, some salal scattered about.

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

good to know. The textile factory question is only a hunch. With no one reporting her missing or recognizing flyers, she was probably all alone with no family in area. Leads me to believe the perp may have been the only "family" she had. So then i think of co-workers etc. Her clothes indicate humble income. Her ethnic background to me indicates a possibility that if she did work outside the home, it could have been in manufacturing, like textiles, seamstress, something like that typical of a non-degreed person.
If in fact there is some connection to "mail order' brides, snooping around those circles may be difficult but it'd be nice to interview some other girls trapped in that lifestyle.
I'll find the article i found last night (3am) to post re: the ring of prostitution, human trafficing and mail order brides. (in WA state)
My gut says this was a white man, not asian. THere is lots of domestic violence issues among those of asian groups. From what i've seen it doesn't have the earmarks of an aggressive asian male just getting rid of wife.
my mind still goes back to the John Robinson case. Not the level of perversion, but the discarding of her like garbage when he was done.
but that's just me.
with the shirt near by and the bottle of pop, (if related) makes me lean more toward theory of her being comfortable there at least for a few minutes.
care to opine?
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

what's salal?

 

[coldcaseman]

what's salal?

Salal is a low growing plant that had dark green shiny thick leaves. People pick salal for the floral industry. If you receive a floral arrangement, it probably has some salal in it.

 

[coldcaseman]

with the shirt near by and the bottle of pop, (if related) makes me lean more toward theory of her being comfortable there at least for a few minutes.
care to opine?
kk

Ther are many Hispanic and Asians in our area who make a living picking chantrelle mushrooms, salal, ferns, and spanish moss for sale to the floral industry. In a good area, a hard worker can make $200 a day. People have been known to protect good areas. In Oregon, there have been shootings between the goups over areas. It wouldn't be unusual for a mushroom or salal picker to be armed for protection. Could it have been a husband and wife picking mushrooms, the husband carried a gun for protection, they get into an argurment, and he kills his wife? It is one of the possibilities.

 

[docwho3]

. . .No papers, no litter in the imediate area except a bottle of Hires root beer (half full) that was in a trash bag hanging from a bush about 100 feet from the body. The bottle was filled in April, 1987 (as I recall) and according to the company, the bottle would have been purchased within 6 months, depending on the type of store. Bottles of pop may stay in smaller stores longer than supermarkets. The summer temps will get into the 70-80's, but the mornings (especially in the woods) can be cool. The clothing (along with the pop bottle, if it's connected) suggest that she was killed in the spring or early summer.

Some Questions about the rootbeer: Any DNA obtained from it? Was the cap off of the bottle when it was found and/or, if so, was there any mold or anything growing in the rootbeer? I am thinking that if it had anything growing in it that it might be possible to experiment with other hires rootbeers to find out how long one has to be left before similar things begin to grow in it and that might help with the timeline of the crime. Of course that is only relevant if the rootbeer is actually connected to the crime and was not just some random trash found.

Any prints off the rootbeer?

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

good stuff maynard

nice pitch.
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

tesing the bottle in any way, could also help eliminate it as having to do with the crime. save wasting more time on it?
so do tell
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

Salal is a low growing plant that had dark green shiny thick leaves. People pick salal for the floral industry. If you receive a floral arrangement, it probably has some salal in it.

I haven't received any floral arrangements recently!
My hubby is slackin.
kk

 

[coldcaseman]

tesing the bottle in any way, could also help eliminate it as having to do with the crime. save wasting more time on it?
so do tell
kk

The cap was on the bottle. It was sent to the crime lab, no DNA was found.

 

[scandi]

I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but did you find the earing lying right about where she fell, or under those logs? And was it close to the piece of skull the shroom hunter picked up?

I'm trying to figure out why only one earing was found. The animal wouldn't rip the head apart, so it wouldn't be until heavy decomp had set in that they would start picking bones out, right? {probably wrong ;} With that kind of decomp you would think the other earing would fall straight down from the head.

As to the root beer, if someone actually walked down there after she had died and hunted for shrooms long enough to set their bag w/ pop on a tree limb, don't you think they would have seen something of her, or smelled her presence?


Scandi

 

[coldcaseman]

I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but did you find the earing lying right about where she fell, or under those logs? And was it close to the piece of skull the shroom hunter picked up?

I'm trying to figure out why only one earing was found. The animal wouldn't rip the head apart, so it wouldn't be until heavy decomp had set in that they would start picking bones out, right? {probably wrong ;} With that kind of decomp you would think the other earing would fall straight down from the head.

As to the root beer, if someone actually walked down there after she had died and hunted for shrooms long enough to set their bag w/ pop on a tree limb, don't you think they would have seen something of her, or smelled her presence?


Scandi

All good questions. The earring was found about 10 feet from the body, where a coyote or similar animal had made a little bed. It was a french loop style, and was still fastened. The skull was in pieces, and was drug off in several directions. I recovered bones several hundred feet away, some from several feet down burrows. I can tell you it is an uneasy feeling when I'm reaching down a burrow up to my shoulder. I expected to feel a snout! The area was searched numerous times, even with a metal detector club. Half of the skull and the earring were never recovered. They could be under ground, or taken even further away. Someone may have stumbled upon the body, and left in a hurry, maybe leaving their pop behind. They might not report it, especially if they weren't suppose to be there (or be in this country). People have to get permits (and the property owners ok) before the start harvesting ferns, bear grass, salal, etc. Some undocumented workers don't bother to do that. The same goes for some SE Asians (and causasians too).

 

[scandi]

Thanks CCM, Makes sense, but I'm thinking you feel she had 2 earings on when she got there. She probably wasn't an eccentric or especially creative soal that would wear only one. LOL Bless her soal.

I could never reach my arm down in some critters hole in the ground - they might snap at my fingers and I'd probably go to heaven right then from a heart attack!

So I keep thinking about whether or not they were a couple. Have you found this bold and quick execution style murder is condusive to murder between mates or those linked romanticly? He evidently knew the area well to not get lost! That says couple to me. If it was a business relationship gone sour he would have taken her way out to lessen the chances of her body being found, right? If he were a pimp from Aberdeen he would know backroads, right? There used to be a lot of P in that town way back when, but I don't know how they operate now. If he thought she owed him money it would be a motive for murder, or if she had seen something she hadn't have it would as well.

I guess the reason I keep bringing that up is one would be local, the other probably not. But how do you investigate when these people are so migratory as far as living where they get work goes.

One more thing about the shirt over the branch. She was very tiny and short. Was the shirt hung where you think she could have placed it there or higher up? I would think if she placed it there they could have been a couple out shrooming, and if not he threw the shirt as he pulled it off of her inside out and it landed like that, and then they probably would not be a couple. The fact it was inside out tells me she probably didn't put it up there or she would have put it right side out like any woman would do.

The shirt says not a couple to me and he took her there expressly to kill her and she probably knew there was something up all the way there.

Scandi