WA - Lindsey Baum, 10, McCleary, 26 June 2009 - #12

[boondock]

The Ron & Don Radio Show had interviews with MB and GHC undersheriff Rick Scott. Here is the link where you can listen to these:
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=153&cmsid=110

There are no individual links but:

Aug. 28 is the interview with MB, in the 3-4pm time slot, begins about 30 minutes into the show.

Aug. 31 is the interview with Rick Scott in the 3-4pm time slot, begins about 6 minutes into the show

 

[McCleary]

So...my plan is to be there to search today...but only if I manage to figure out where my 3 year old "disappeared" my wallet in the 15 minutes it took me to get dressed...

 

[kageykaren]

So...my plan is to be there to search today...but only if I manage to figure out where my 3 year old "disappeared" my wallet in the 15 minutes it took me to get dressed...

I'm about ready to put GPS tracking on everything from keys, reading glasses, purse. I could go on but it would make me sound like I have dementia! Stay safe and have a productive trek! Volunteers like you keep us on the sidelines from feeling discouraged. Thanks McCleary & evryone else volunteering over the weekend. ~<3~

 

[SeriouslySearching]

in regards to Coralla's post. i just read over at the other site what you were talking about. he mentioned she could have been on an ATV. does anyone remember near the beginning something about a sighting of a girl matching lindsey's description with an older guy on an ATV? that was on a logging road if i'm not mistaken.

It was at that park where people were gathered for that busy weekend of races, IIRC.

 

[SCSleuther]

It was at that park where people were gathered for that busy weekend of races, IIRC.

Hello, I believe what you are looking for is on Thread #4, post # 253 by Gailrene (sorry, I'm still learning how to attaching/quote an old post. I highlighted in the blue color below):

Gailrene

Quote:
Originally Posted by concentric
But where did the unconfirmed sighting come from?

Sorry to leave you guys in the air. I heard about the unconfirmed sighting from my friend who works at the ORV park. She is quoted in one of the news articles about the area. She is a very trustworthy person. She said that on Saturday, someone at the park said they think they saw Lindsey up on one of the trails with a man on a quad. He wasn't aware at the time that there was a missing little girl. He remembered the situation because the man looked startled and nervous and then a little girl came out of the woods to his quad. She was wearing a pink floral bathing suit. When he got back to the ORV park, found out about Lindsey and was sure that the little girl he saw was her. Someone (don't know who) headed back up to look for the man and girl, but they were gone. That is a VAST area of trails full of quads, dirt bikes and four wheelers. My family and I spend a great deal of time up there ourselves. It is not uncommon to run into other people on bikes, etc. It would also not be uncommon for a father, or family friend to let a little girl off the quad to go potty in the woods....it is uncommon for little girls to ride quads in that area dressed in nothing but a bathing suit. She'd get scratched and banged up. The whole situation just did not sit well with the man who saw the girl or with the others back at the park, including my friend. I do not know if LE was notified. I am assuming they were, because this friend of mine used to work with me in the corrections industry and that tends to give you a permanent "security" mind set. She would have told LE no matter what. She did say they were searching every camper, trailer and vehicle leaving the ORV park. I don't know if that included LE or if it was just park volunteers asking for permission to search vehicles. This wouldn't cover everyone going in and out of the whole state forest, just the ORV park proper.
Did I cover it all? I just don't want to leave anything more confusing than it already is.

 

[coastal]

On the various missing child cases I've researched in the past, I've always tried to pay close attention to any Canine Search & Rescue efforts that were conducted. A professionally trained scent dog is, in my opinion, an expert I can rely on. To put it bluntly, I trust the dogs - because they have no reason to lie or distort the truth.

Until yesterday, I had not heard or read anything about there being a "death scent" picked up by the search dogs in McCleary regarding Lindsey's case. However, on other threads, I'm seeing what the author says is a copy of a letter from the private K9 handler who was hired by MB. What I read looks legitmate to me, including the effort made to clarify what a "death scent" signal means, wind direction, etc. I don't know the rules here well enough to post a specific link, but you can find the info easily by googling "Lindsey Baum" + "Harry Oakes" (reportedly the name of the private K-9 SAR handler).

This is a rather delicate subject, and it has taken me several hours to come up with a way to express my thoughts and feelings about this. The bottom line is, I want to know the facts, even if it is not something I want to hear.

Obviously, it's important not to over-react to information we do not have a clear understanding about. Not to mention the fact that LE and the media have NOT officially released any information in this regard. And there might have been a good reason for it.

So what do we do now? I have a lot of questions I wish I could ask.

CorallaroC,
(Love your "hat" -very clever!) I just wanted to say thanks for pointing me to those posts re: Harry O.'s search for Lindsey, which I would not have seen otherwise. His comments are certainly disturbing:

(The following snip is an e-mail response from Harry Oakes to a poster at another site, who wrote to him to ask about the results of his search for Lindsey. Thanks to Tamikosmom, and apologies for the rip

>>>snip

RE: LINDSEY BAUM SEARCH&#8207;
From: Harry Oakes ([email protected])
Sent: September 8, 2009 12:12:42 PM

we actually tracked up to Beck St then NE To a logging atv road and our search continues there. So far we've located two empty beer bottles, and a track (Scent trail) heading east 6 miles on either a motor cycle or ATV.

we are also (the search dogs) picking up a dead human alert 1/2 mile East of Beck the winds are coming from the south. I can't tell you about anything else we've found. That's been handed over to the McCleary Police.

Note: The death scent on a dead human could be from any "Dead Human" that has died in the area. Not neccessarily the missing child's scent.

Harry<<<snip

I'm confused by this, as Harry O seems to be saying two different things. I suppose both could be true, but...my understanding of search and rescue dogs (admittedly limited) is that each individual dog is trained to search for a specific kind of scent, and that a "tracking"-trained dog, who is given a scent to "track", would not "find" the scent of human remains, nor would a "cadaver dog" locate a scent trail, to track.

I took Harry O.'s "we" to mean Harry and his dog, but perhaps "we" means that there were other "Harrys" with differently trained dogs searching for Lindsey, as well?

If anybody can straighten me out here, I'd appreciate it.
One thing I do know: that e-mail ^ is the first I've heard of either (and both) a death scent being found, or (and) a scent trail 6 miles E. of Beck St.

 

[boondock]

CorallaroC,
(Love your "hat" -very clever!) I just wanted to say thanks for pointing me to those posts re: Harry O.'s search for Lindsey, which I would not have seen otherwise. His comments are certainly disturbing:

(The following snip is an e-mail response from Harry Oakes to a poster at another site, who wrote to him to ask about the results of his search for Lindsey. Thanks to Tamikosmom, and apologies for the rip

>>>snip

RE: LINDSEY BAUM SEARCH&#8207;
From: Harry Oakes ([email protected])
Sent: September 8, 2009 12:12:42 PM

we actually tracked up to Beck St then NE To a logging atv road and our search continues there. So far we've located two empty beer bottles, and a track (Scent trail) heading east 6 miles on either a motor cycle or ATV.

we are also (the search dogs) picking up a dead human alert 1/2 mile East of Beck the winds are coming from the south. I can't tell you about anything else we've found. That's been handed over to the McCleary Police.

Note: The death scent on a dead human could be from any "Dead Human" that has died in the area. Not neccessarily the missing child's scent.

Harry<<<snip

I'm confused by this, as Harry O seems to be saying two different things. I suppose both could be true, but...my understanding of search and rescue dogs (admittedly limited) is that each individual dog is trained to search for a specific kind of scent, and that a "tracking"-trained dog, who is given a scent to "track", would not "find" the scent of human remains, nor would a "cadaver dog" locate a scent trail, to track.

I took Harry O.'s "we" to mean Harry and his dog, but perhaps "we" means that there were other "Harrys" with differently trained dogs searching for Lindsey, as well?

If anybody can straighten me out here, I'd appreciate it.
One thing I do know: that e-mail ^ is the first I've heard of either (and both) a death scent being found, or (and) a scent trail 6 miles E. of Beck St.

I think Harry trains his dogs to "multi task". This is my understanding from reading the FAQ on his website:

http://www.k9sardog.com/faqs.html

 

[LORI5050]

we actually tracked up to Beck St then NE To a logging atv road and our search continues there. So far we've located two empty beer bottles, and a track (Scent trail) heading east 6 miles on either a motor cycle or ATV.

we are also (the search dogs) picking up a dead human alert 1/2 mile East of Beck the winds are coming from the south. I can't tell you about anything else we've found. That's been handed over to the McCleary Police.

Note: The death scent on a dead human could be from any "Dead Human" that has died in the area. Not neccessarily the missing child's scent.

I've been wondering if the death scent was coming from the south could it be from the hospital?...

 

[TamgMit]

I think Harry trains his dogs to "multi task". This is my understanding from reading the FAQ on his website:

http://www.k9sardog.com/faqs.html

Thank you for putting up the link. Just was got done reading it and thought it was very interesting. But it left me with several questions.

If the death scent was there wouldn't the dog track to where that scent was coming from and they would be able to see what was causing this scent.

From my understanding of this article. These dogs are trained to follow the scent that they are given. So when the dog responds to this given scent they should be able to track them.

I also see mention in the letter that it may also pick up the scent of someone else that might have passed. I guess I am a little confused on that aspect being the scent they are following is of the scent they are giving.

Next, I looked at the map where Beck street and surrounding area what is located in that area. I have seen there in close proximity simpson mill, housing development, hospital, Mommerson road, and water towers. Those all would be south of Beck street. Seems to me these areas would of been searched.

Could they have gotten then scent of death from hospital if someone had recently passed. Or from someone that was recently buried in graveyard. I guess I am still kind of lost and have more questions then answers, but I do have hope that she will be found and family will have closure.

God Bless you searchers in all that you do. My prayers to the family. I know this topic can be very upsetting and hard to deal with. I can only imagine what the Baum family is going through and admire the courage and strength they have gotten.

Other thing I haven't heard much on is SB. Hope he and his family are doing well. Know this is probably a pretty emotional time for him as well as his new family. Think they could all use all the friends and family support even with each other especially during this time.

 

[eyes4crime]

we actually tracked up to Beck St then NE To a logging atv road and our search continues there. So far we've located two empty beer bottles, and a track (Scent trail) heading east 6 miles on either a motor cycle or ATV.

we are also (the search dogs) picking up a dead human alert 1/2 mile East of Beck the winds are coming from the south. I can't tell you about anything else we've found. That's been handed over to the McCleary Police.

Note: The death scent on a dead human could be from any "Dead Human" that has died in the area. Not neccessarily the missing child's scent.

I've been wondering if the death scent was coming from the south could it be from the hospital?...

Bolded by me - That's a great question! Don't know how far the death scent travels or if it travels in the air - - lots of questions about cadaver dogs sniffing the death scent from people who have been hung and are hanging from above. I'm sure a cemetery would not be a good place to bring a cadaver dog...way too many hits.

 

[JenniferO]

[/B]
I'm sure a cemetery would not be a good place to bring a cadaver dog...way too many hits.

This made me chuckle out loud.

 

[TamgMit]

[/B]

Bolded by me - That's a great question! Don't know how far the death scent travels or if it travels in the air - - lots of questions about cadaver dogs sniffing the death scent from people who have been hung and are hanging from above. I'm sure a cemetery would not be a good place to bring a cadaver dog...way too many hits.

LOL I know wouldn't be a good place to bring a cadavar dog, but was thinking more of the scent that travels. that is south of Beck St. I was wondering if they could of picked up that scent although that scent wouldn't be the scent of lindsey which I don't understand since they are suppose to be following her scent. LOL anyways, just a thought...

 

[KONAMOCHA]

The cemetery is actually more west of beck st than south

south makes me wonder about mommsen field as we locals have called it .... a place where people used to go with there 4wd vehicles... don't know if they still do or not

 

[TamgMit]

Sounds like an interesting place. My son use to do a little 4 wheeling and he used to love gravel pits and and anything that had to do with mud.. lol can remember many times he would come back all mudded up. Is this area similar to that might have gravel pits or lots of mud.. or it is just like a field that one would just hang out and party.

 

[TamgMit]

I was also wondering Kona. If there is a possibility of getting to capitol forrest via some of those back roads off a mommerson or roads close to there. Also see via map that off cedar hooks to oak which also goes to water tower.

 

[eyes4crime]

LOL I know wouldn't be a good place to bring a cadavar dog, but was thinking more of the scent that travels. that is south of Beck St. I was wondering if they could of picked up that scent although that scent wouldn't be the scent of lindsey which I don't understand since they are suppose to be following her scent. LOL anyways, just a thought...

Search and Rescue dogs are trained to search out scents - they are brilliant at it. A Live person has his/her own individual scent. There are also cadaver dogs that sniff out the 'death scent' that is the same for all of us. I guess there are dogs that do both, but the dog would have to have two different alerts - one for death scent and one for the specific live scent. Didn't know one dog could do both.

 

[TamgMit]

Search and Rescue dogs are trained to search out scents - they are brilliant at it. A Live person has his/her own individual scent. There are also cadaver dogs that sniff out the 'death scent' that is the same for all of us. I guess there are dogs that do both, but the dog would have to have two different alerts - one for death scent and one for the specific live scent. Didn't know one dog could do both.

Thank you eyes.. I appreciate you explaining, thatmakes more sense. I was trying to rationalize it but didn't understand it. I understand it more thank you again...

 

[JenniferO]

Mr Oakes explains the dogs alerts on his webpage in the FAQ section.

 

[KONAMOCHA]

I was told that from beck st, if you know the area.
You can come out by summit lake near Kennedy creek area which is near capitol forest or you can come out over by Shelton

mommsen field was where the big mud hole was for all the 4x4's to try to get across without having to be pulled out.

I do not know if that mud hole is still there or not.... to many years ago lol

Yes, it was a party area then ... not sure now

 

[SeriouslySearching]

It is my understanding dogs can be cross-trained, but it is rare. One site I researched did not recommend it at all for their K-9 SAR dogs because it put too much pressure on the animals.

If caskets are sealed properly, there should not be human decomposition which would be detected in a cemetery, imo. I would think the funeral home had a problem with embalming etc. if decomp was readily filling a space. Hmmm...maybe someone could answer this question about cadaver dogs for us tho?

Human decomp could be picked up at a distance with a breeze blowing. A change of wind direction could confuse the dog unless they were near enough to the site to be able to pick up the scent from the ground, imo.

Is Mommsen field anywhere near the water tower?