WA - Major security incident at SeaTac Airport. All planes are grounded, Aug 2018

  • #221
I challenge you to find ONE mental health diagnosis (besides personality disorders, catatonia and psychosis-he wasn’t catatonic or psychotic )that lists extreme unconcern for others aka selfishness as a symptom.

As I stated in an earlier post, my experience on many suicide threads here on WS has shown me that quite often the person who commits suicide is not selfish, but believes (erroneously) that others would be better off without them. Suicide survivors have courageously posted on these threads, sharing their distorted thinking at the time of the attempt. I have also looked at the opinions of psychologists so that I will understand the subject and not just base my opinion on my emotional reactions.

However, I will post a few links for those who want to educate themselves about this complex subject. In no way am I suggesting that suicide is a viable option (and I do not believe in assisted suicide personally), but I choose to look at and try to understand a mental health subject that is controversial and uncomfortable. Certainly, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, but I think it’s a good idea to challenge these opinions by seeking information.

Is Suicide Selfish?

Suicide is NOT a Selfish Act - It is an Act of Desperation by Someone in Intense Pain - Suicide.org!

Suicide is Not a Selfish Act | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness

There's Nothing Selfish About Suicide | HuffPost
 
  • #222
I don't see the tail number in the text but I might have missed it. Can you please copy and paste?

What I posted about the plane was a copy/paste from the article. It could be easily missed.

ETA —Here is another quote:

The 29-year-old amateur pilot is presumed dead after the Bombardier Q400, stolen from Horizon Airlines, slammed into Ketron Island, about 30 miles south of the airport, setting off a large forest fire.

'Suicidal' man who stole, crashed plane was 3 ½-year employee without pilot's license
 
  • #223
I suffer from depression and have friends who have mental health issues. We go to therapy, we cope however we can, we deal with it, it's not easy. This man decided to steal a plane, put people in danger because he had zero flight experience, and crashed it on an inhabited island.

I believe there was a plane crash in the alps caused by a suicidal pilot, and then there is Malaysian 370. This is not going to help the cause of people with mental health issues being involved in aviation.

Both of those (if the latter was suicide), involved intentionally taking a bunch of innocent people out with the suicidal person. They wanted to kill others while they killed themselves, a la Jim Jones.

This guy, as reckless and dangerous as he was, had no intent to harm anyone. He listened to advice to move the plane over water so if he ran out of fuel or crashed it wouldn't hit anyone. He expressed concern about not wanting to hurt anyone or damage anything at the military airport. He displayed sensitivity and regret, along with confusion and instability.

I do not see a comparison, except for the fact that a plane was the instrument of death.
 
  • #224
Sometimes I think it's easier for some people to simply be angry and react with rage at tragedy because they cannot understand the complexities of human beings, they cannot cope with feeling sad for someone, they just can't be bothered feeling empathy or they are terrified that some issue like this could affect themselves or their loved ones. So they think that by harshly criticizing and denouncing the unfortunate, confused souls who do such a thing, it will never touch them personally.

I feel empathy towards his wife who lost her husband and is going to have to deal with reporters at her door while in mourning.

I feel empathy towards his friends and co-workers who are wondering if they missed something. I've had to help someone who lost a dear friend to suicide before.

I feel empathy towards the residents of Ketron Island. It's less than a mile and a half long. Imagine a plane crash half a mile from you. Or less. I'd be a nervous wreck and wondering what might have been.

I feel empathy towards the thousands of people who sat in planes or waited in hard-as-nails airport seats because somebody decided they could take a joy ride because they played a flight sim on a computer.

I feel empathy towards the firefighters who are already on high alert due to wildfire dangers in Washington State, and having to haul equipment on a small ferry.

I do not feel any empathy towards Mr. Russell. I don't see why I should frankly.
 
  • #225
Yeah. Remember the gal who went around the world with her husband, filming, instgramming and blogging the whole time who then killed herself upon the return?

People can have inner demons no one sees.

Absolutely. A friend of ours who just got back from Australia and Sri Lanka, and seemed to be having the best time bringing up his little daughter with his wife hung himself just a week ago. We attended his funeral yesterday and I still can't get over the shock. Life isn't always as straight forward as it may seem.
 
  • #226
What I posted about the plane was a copy/paste from the article. It could be easily missed.

ETA —Here is another quote:

The 29-year-old amateur pilot is presumed dead after the Bombardier Q400, stolen from Horizon Airlines, slammed into Ketron Island, about 30 miles south of the airport, setting off a large forest fire.

'Suicidal' man who stole, crashed plane was 3 ½-year employee without pilot's license

I'm looking for the tail number. The OP said it was the actual plane and the tail number is different from the one I thought it was.
 
  • #227
How though. They sometimes don't even know how bad it is themselves. Like this guy.
Identifying early warning signs, predictors, risk factors, genetics, more education for everyone. People don't know how bad it is because it's normal for them or they don't know any different, or that there's any help for them.

Like maybe five years ago something happened to him (for example) that might have been an early warning sign but no one noticed. I believe it can happen seemingly out of nowhere or some people flip very very quickly between okay and not okay, but I think often people just don't know what to look for or what adds up along the way to being in crisis. (Maybe @CARIIS can explain this better than me.)

In some ways it's like the weather. You can't always predict it but you can track and watch and be prepared.

edit: Cold medicine is interfering with my ability to express complex thought. Sorry.
 
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  • #228
And then...nothing. I hope the company has a good medical plan for its employees that includes mental health coverage, and encourages employees to use it.

The plane is a deductible business loss. The company will likely have to bear clean up costs as well.

I am telling ya - I shut down about three minutes into the presser oh brother this is gonna be a heap of BS

then he goes into the tarmac rule ( that was after that NW flight was stuck on the runway for like 8 hours ) so now there are MONEY fines (serious ones!) if a carrier does not disembark withing three hours

that guy today had to ( after sending all his condolences to his wife and bull like that ) squeezes it into a presser )

that fit in with the lady needing to go on air last night

who the heck cares what she thinks about it

money money money

As incredibly sad as this tragedy is, this man has exposed one hell of a vulnerablity in aviation.

People on the NYC news stations are understandably freaked out--three major airports within twenty miles...

This almost seems like it was done spontaneously. A hey, why not moment? Seems like a kid with a kind heart who didn't think it through.

But the vulnerablity exposed is truly scary. Imagine if it was someone with an entirely sinister motive.

Hi my dear!

This has been known for decades -- noone (govt/airlines) are gonna do anything about it

$$ that simple

secure areas (outside of terminal ) mean a chain link fence . That is it . This will make a baby racket -all will be died out in about a week moo

I was thinking during the presser hum i wonder who is come up with some way to make this into a lawsuit ??

I feel for those who loved him - i vote he was loveable
 
  • #229
I'm looking for the tail number. The OP said it was the actual plane and the tail number is different from the one I thought it was.

Sorry, I misunderstood.
 
  • #230
Absolutely. A friend of ours who just got back from Australia and Sri Lanka, and seemed to be having the best time bringing up his little daughter with his wife hung himself just a week ago. We attended his funeral yesterday and I still can't get over the shock. Life isn't always as straight forward as it may seem.

Huge hugs Ana. I know this has been very hard for you.
 
  • #231
Some passages from IMO the most incredible read on depression his writing is stunning

“A phenomenon that a number of people have noted while in deep depression is the sense of being accompanied by a second self — a wraithlike observer who, not sharing the dementia of his double, is able to watch with dispassionate curiosity as his companion struggles against the oncoming disaster, or decides to embrace it.

There is a theatrical quality about all this, and during the next several days, as I went about stolidly preparing for extinction, I couldn't shake off a sense of melodrama — a melodrama in which I, the victim-to-be of self-murder, was both the solitary actor and lone member of the audience.”
William Styron, Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness


“In depression this faith in deliverance, in ultimate restoration, is absent. The pain is unrelenting, and what makes the condition intolerable is the foreknowledge that no remedy will come- not in a day, an hour, a month, or a minute. If there is mild relief, one knows that it is only temporary; more pain will follow. It is hopelessness even more than pain that crushes the soul. So the decision-making of daily life involves not, as in normal affairs, shifting from one annoying situation to another less annoying- or from discomfort to relative comfort, or from boredom to activity- but moving from pain to pain

“In depression this faith in deliverance, in ultimate restoration, is absent. The pain is unrelenting, and what makes the condition intolerable is the foreknowledge that no remedy will come- not in a day, an hour, a month, or a minute. If there is mild relief, one knows that it is only temporary; more pain will follow. It is hopelessness even more than pain that crushes the soul. So the decision-making of daily life involves not, as in normal affairs, shifting from one annoying situation to another less annoying- or from discomfort to relative comfort, or from boredom to activity- but moving from pain to pain. One does not abandon, even briefly, one’s bed of nails, but is attached to it wherever one goes. And this results in a striking experience- one which I have called, borrowing military terminology, the situation of the walking wounded. For in virtually any other serious sickness, a patient who felt similar devistation would by lying flat in bed, possibly sedated and hooked up to the tubes and wires of life-support systems, but at the very least in a posture of repose and in an isolated setting. His invalidism would be necessary, unquestioned and honorably attained. However, the sufferer from depression has no such option and therefore finds himself, like a walking casualty of war, thrust into the most intolerable social and family situations. There he must, despite the anguish devouring his brain, present a face approximating the one that is associated with ordinary events and companionship. He must try to utter small talk, and be responsive to questions, and knowingly nod and frown and, God help him, even smile. But it is a fierce trial attempting to speak a few simple words.”
William Styron, Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness
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“The pain of severe depression is quite unimaginable to those who have not suffered it, and it kills in many instances because its anguish can no longer be borne. The prevention of many suicides will continue to be hindered until there is a general awareness of the nature of this pain.”
William Styron, Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness
tags: anguish, awareness, depressed, depression, mental-health, mental-illness, pain, prevention,psychology, suffering, suicide
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“Depression is a disorder of mood, so mysteriously painful and elusive in the way it becomes known to the self -- to the mediating intellect-- as to verge close to being beyond description. It thus remains nearly incomprehensible to those who have not experienced it in its extreme mode.”

“The madness of depression is, generally speaking, the antithesis of violence. It is a storm indeed, but a storm of murk. Soon evident are the slowed-down responses, near paralysis, psychic energy throttled back close to zero. Ultimately, the body is affected and feels sapped, drained.”
William Styron, Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness

Depression, most people know, used to be termed "melancholia," a word which appears in English as the year 1303 and crops up more than once in Chaucer, who in his usage seemed to be aware of its pathological nuances. "Melancholia" would still appear to be a far more apt and evocative word for the blacker forms of the disorder, but it was usurped by a noun with a blank tonality and lacking any magisterial presence, used indifferently to describe an economic decline or a rut in the ground, a true wimp of a word for such a major illness.

It thus remains nearly incomprehensible to those who have not experienced it in its extreme mode, although the gloom, "the blues" which people go through occasionally and associate with the general hassle of everyday existence are of such prevalence that they do give many individuals a hint of the illness in its catastrophic form.”

“There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy.”

It may be more accurate to say that despair, owing to some evil trick played upon the sick brain by the inhabiting psyche, comes to resemble the diabolical discomfort of being imprisoned in a fiercely overheated room. And because no breeze stirs this cauldron, because there is no escape from the smothering confinement, it is natural that the victim begins to think ceaselessly of oblivion

Darkness Visible Quotes by William Styron(page 2 of 2)
 
  • #232
Sometimes I think it's easier for some people to simply be angry and react with rage at tragedy because they cannot understand the complexities of human beings, they cannot cope with feeling sad for someone, they just can't be bothered feeling empathy or they are terrified that some issue like this could affect themselves or their loved ones. So they think that by harshly criticizing and denouncing the unfortunate, confused souls who do such a thing, it will never touch them personally.
I think so too. The same thing we see after a sexual assault or police shooting. I think it's a function of the brain to shut down like that as a way of self-protection. Blame the victim and separate the self.
 
  • #233
  • #234
  • #235
oh but he did

listen to the part when he goes into being glad he was not ruining there day "because of me" but listen to his voice his sigh was so heartfelt it touched me

i found much to be learned in the statement about jail but the part that really struck me was the " a guy like me" there is much there.imo

Did not feel (once I got caught up) much loss of touch with reality . He consistently touched on consequences of what was happening

the oh they will rip me up over there or something to that effect

the honest knowledgment "I REALLY did not plan on landing - I felt like that was almost a freudian slip!

he was thinking outcomes ( delusional cant really do that ) oh they have shootdown things

they were spontaneous as he went through the event /

but.........The random talking about serenity the baby orca olympics were peculiar but he was able to get back on track at times i felt like he was talking to loved ones

but then there is one haunting part -- was the guy he was talking to Andrew -- that was the only second where I felt as if he was really going off the rails- like wondering if he was talking to a voice in his head?

But then there were a few moments of paranoia kind of - the are you flying me into planes was unique!

AMdrew there are peoples lives at stake ---- but he was very very angry in that moment Who was he talking to with such anger?

Was his name andrew?? ATC

but he kept getting back on real time -- kept being humorous

there was some childness -- the resignation in his voice when daddy (atc) told him to kind of stop it and he says something like but i am not really ready to stop playing (my interpretation it was related to I am not quite done

ha

ah good therapy is always about what one is not saying!!

JMO
You bring up some good analysis which made me think for people who are in the profession of phsychology or like first responders in suicide prevention like the people that would talk someone off a roof of a building ready to jump. Those types of people could really use the audio and this case to learn from. There is much to analyze and possibly learn techniques that could help others in the future.

One thing that struck me was how he kept bringing up the fuel getting lower and lower. I may be totally wrong but I almost got the sense he was using the fuel as a mechanism for him to go ahead and "jump". Almost like suicide by cop where he couldnt quite do it himself but knew if he stayed up long enough the fuel would end up forcing his hand.

Its such a sad audio to me and maybe its not all in vain if this case can be used for training of first responders to bridge jumpers or roof jumpers or other suicide 911 calls. Im convinced there is a lot that can be learned from this sad case.
 
  • #236
One thing that struck me was how he kept bringing up the fuel getting lower and lower. I may be totally wrong but I almost got the sense he was using the fuel as a mechanism for him to go ahead and "jump". Almost like suicide by cop where he couldnt quite do it himself but knew if he stayed up long enough the fuel would end up forcing his hand.

I think he also may have been used to flight simulators which can make things "easy" for people. For instance, not having to worry all that much about fuel so you can have a long "flight", when fuel is actually a big deal. He may have thought he'd have enough fuel for a much longer ride, but pulling all those stunts could burn through fuel quickly.
 
  • #237
spu-ea68c8-ogi2-3cwn3bmfojjlb56e



✔@NYCAviation


IMPORTANT: If you have photos or video of last night’s incident, the @NTSB and @FBISeattle may want to see them and obtain basic forensic information about your camera. Contact them at [email protected]. It’s essential that they receive this information soon.

4:22 PM - Aug 11, 2018
 
  • #238
Yes. And, I don't think he understood the full scope of how it would affect his family, coworkers, the people on the ground. He certainly seemed somewhat aware but I don't think fully. But, that is my opinion.

He sounds desperate, and somewhat manic to me, does anyone else get that from the audio ? Possibly undiagnosed bipolar ?
 
  • #239
How to fly it

preflight checklist first \\

lots more to it than many think i think!


 
  • #240

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